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  1. #151
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    I believe that I'm closer to Jeff Cooper than many of you, in that I have at least met the man and shook his hand.
    My mentor was one of the trainers at Gunsite, and a few of my friends also worked there.
    So please don't cite Mr. Cooper and his writings to me.

    Yes, Jeff Cooper invented the "Condition X" system.
    However, that does not make it perfect and immutable. (Sorry, pic: Immutable = unchangeable, unmodifiable, "set in stone.")
    Cooper or no Cooper, I believe that "Condition Zero" is another unnecessary complication, and even ambiguous as well.
    "Condition Zero" could just as well stand for "completely unloaded and not shootable," as it could for "ready to kill." Think about it.

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  3. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    I believe that I'm closer to Jeff Cooper than many of you, in that I have at least met the man and shook his hand.
    My mentor was one of the trainers at Gunsite, and a few of my friends also worked there.
    So please don't cite Mr. Cooper and his writings to me.

    Yes, Jeff Cooper invented the "Condition X" system.
    However, that does not make it perfect and immutable. (Sorry, pic: Immutable = unchangeable, unmodifiable, "set in stone.")
    Cooper or no Cooper, I believe that "Condition Zero" is another unnecessary complication, and even ambiguous as well.
    "Condition Zero" could just as well stand for "completely unloaded and not shootable," as it could for "ready to kill." Think about it.
    immutable !!! lol


  4. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    I believe that I'm closer to Jeff Cooper than many of you, in that I have at least met the man and shook his hand.
    My mentor was one of the trainers at Gunsite, and a few of my friends also worked there.
    So please don't cite Mr. Cooper and his writings to me.

    Yes, Jeff Cooper invented the "Condition X" system.
    However, that does not make it perfect and immutable. (Sorry, pic: Immutable = unchangeable, unmodifiable, "set in stone.")
    Cooper or no Cooper, I believe that "Condition Zero" is another unnecessary complication, and even ambiguous as well.
    "Condition Zero" could just as well stand for "completely unloaded and not shootable," as it could for "ready to kill." Think about it.
    Frankly, I had never heard of the term "Condition Zero" until perhaps two years ago. I had always thought that the Cooper condition definitions ended at Condition One. Another thing to get one's head wrapped around was trying to equate a DAO striker fired internal safety pistol to the condition system when that system was design around the 1911. That gave me pause for a while since I tend to think very literally (a product of being a software engineer for many year or maybe the other way around).

    Glad to hear you had the opportunity to meet a legend in the gun culture. Did you have the opportunity to talk much with him?

  5. #154
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    Re: Do you carry your Glock condition 1?

    Condition 1. Always. That extra 1-2 seconds to rack the slide could end tragically

  6. #155
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    Do you carry your Glock condition 1?

    Yes. Why would you not?

  7. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Frankly, I had never heard of the term "Condition Zero" until perhaps two years ago. I had always thought that the Cooper condition definitions ended at Condition One...
    I, too, never heard about "Condition Zero" from Cooper or from anybody who ever worked for or with him. I believe that it, and "Condition Four," are modern fabrications, added to Cooper's system since his death.
    Colonel Cooper was not one to promulgate any kind of ambiguity, and "Condition Zero" is the semantic height of ambiguity.
    (I can hear the footsteps now, as pic runs to and from the nearest dictionary.)


    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Glad to hear you had the opportunity to meet a legend in the gun culture. Did you have the opportunity to talk much with him?
    One did not talk to Colonel Cooper, so much as listen intently to him. That I've done, once or twice.
    The only person I've ever met who could out-assert Cooper was my own mentor, Mike Harries, whom a formerly-famous gunwriter has very properly called "the round mound of sound."

  8. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    I, too, never heard about "Condition Zero" from Cooper or from anybody who ever worked for or with him. I believe that it, and "Condition Four," are modern fabrications, added to Cooper's system since his death.
    Colonel Cooper was not one to promulgate any kind of ambiguity, and "Condition Zero" is the semantic height of ambiguity.
    (I can hear the footsteps now, as pic runs to and from the nearest dictionary.)




    One did not talk to Colonel Cooper, so much as listen intently to him. That I've done, once or twice.
    The only person I've ever met who could out-assert Cooper was my own mentor, Mike Harries, whom a formerly-famous gunwriter has very properly called "the round mound of sound."
    I almost missed this post, thanks

  9. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    I, too, never heard about "Condition Zero" from Cooper or from anybody who ever worked for or with him. I believe that it, and "Condition Four," are modern fabrications, added to Cooper's system since his death.
    Colonel Cooper was not one to promulgate any kind of ambiguity, and "Condition Zero" is the semantic height of ambiguity.
    (I can hear the footsteps now, as pic runs to and from the nearest dictionary.)



    One did not talk to Colonel Cooper, so much as listen intently to him. That I've done, once or twice.
    The only person I've ever met who could out-assert Cooper was my own mentor, Mike Harries, whom a formerly-famous gunwriter has very properly called "the round mound of sound."
    That sounds like a technique I use and have suggested others do the same. When in the company of someone who is known for their experience or expertise in a given area, or someone for whom you hold a great deal of respect, I suggest asking your questions then just sit back, shut up, and listen. Let them do the talking; there will be much to learn.

    I met a man about six years ago, knew him first on a website, who was quite knowledgeable in gun fighting and related topics. He struck me as rather low key with his postings and when I met him, my original assessment was correct. No flare, no boisterous enunciation, no conceit, and no deliberately projected gugu-type persona... real or imagined. Just a low key, no nonsense, deliberate man about whom you immediately perceived knew his abilities and limitations. He had been in a number of gun fights in his career and I managed to find out that he had sent quite a few of his adversaries to meet their maker. Again, not at all a braggard, just a few things would come out here and there. We became friends and though I haven't seen him in a while, I still hear from him on occasion.

    People like this carry a wealth of information. Getting it out of them can be a chore. But keeping your mouth zipped while listening to them can be so rewarding.

  10. #159
    TheLAGuy is offline Banned
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    Can you guys explain what exactly condition zero is?

  11. #160
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    Re: Do you carry your Glock condition 1?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLAGuy View Post
    Can you guys explain what exactly condition zero is?
    In the case of the 1911 pattern pistol kit would be:
    Magazine loaded and inserted
    Chamber loaded
    Hammer cocked
    Thumb safety in the firing position.

  12. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by VAMarine View Post
    In the case of the 1911 pattern pistol kit would be:
    Magazine loaded and inserted
    Chamber loaded
    Hammer cocked
    Thumb safety in the firing position.
    So would a beretta px4 storm apply to this?

  13. #162
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLAGuy View Post
    So would a beretta px4 storm apply to this?
    I've never handled a Storm, but I believe that it has a "traditional double-action" (TDA) trigger and a slide-mounted safety-lever.
    A TDA-trigger gun does not really need a safety lever, except, perhaps, to de-cock its hammer safely.
    It can be carried safely with its safety off. That's the so-called "Condition Zero": Ready to fire as soon as its trigger is pulled.
    Why is this true?
    Because it takes such a long and relatively hard trigger pull, to fire the first shot, that it is highly unlikely that the pistol will be accidentally or negligently fired.
    Nevertheless, the only safe way to carry your Beretta Storm with its safety off, is in a holster which completely covers the pistol's trigger-guard and trigger.
    Further, you need to be very, very careful when you re-holster your pistol, that absolutely nothing ever gets into the gun's trigger-guard during the re-holstering process. It has happened that a shirt tail or hem has accidentally inserted itself into a trigger-guard and, as the pistol is thrust into its holster, that little wisp of cloth presses the trigger hard enough to fire a shot.

    I think that the re-holstering process might benefit from the use of a TDA pistol's safety lever: Point the gun in a safe direction. Set the safety to "on," thereby dropping the gun's hammer. Carefully re-holster. Finally, set the safety-lever to "off."

    Trigger Actions:
    Traditional Double-Action (TDA, discussed above), in which the first trigger pull is long and hard, but subsequent ones are shorter and lighter.
    Double-Action Only (DAO), in which each and every pull of the trigger is as long and as hard as the TDA's first pull, and which usually does not require a safety-lever.
    Single-Action (SA), in which each and every pull of the trigger is short and light, which demands the use of a safety-lever.
    (The Glock is a special case. I classify it as DAO, but other people disagree with this.)

  14. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    I've never handled a Storm, but I believe that it has a "traditional double-action" (TDA) trigger and a slide-mounted safety-lever.
    A TDA-trigger gun does not really need a safety lever, except, perhaps, to de-cock its hammer safely.
    It can be carried safely with its safety off. That's the so-called "Condition Zero": Ready to fire as soon as its trigger is pulled.
    Why is this true?
    Because it takes such a long and relatively hard trigger pull, to fire the first shot, that it is highly unlikely that the pistol will be accidentally or negligently fired.
    Nevertheless, the only safe way to carry your Beretta Storm with its safety off, is in a holster which completely covers the pistol's trigger-guard and trigger.
    Further, you need to be very, very careful when you re-holster your pistol, that absolutely nothing ever gets into the gun's trigger-guard during the re-holstering process. It has happened that a shirt tail or hem has accidentally inserted itself into a trigger-guard and, as the pistol is thrust into its holster, that little wisp of cloth presses the trigger hard enough to fire a shot.

    I think that the re-holstering process might benefit from the use of a TDA pistol's safety lever: Point the gun in a safe direction. Set the safety to "on," thereby dropping the gun's hammer. Carefully re-holster. Finally, set the safety-lever to "off."

    Trigger Actions:
    • Traditional Double-Action (TDA, discussed above), in which the first trigger pull is long and hard, but subsequent ones are shorter and lighter.
    • Double-Action Only (DAO), in which each and every pull of the trigger is as long and as hard as the TDA's first pull, and which usually does not require a safety-lever.
    • Single-Action (SA), in which each and every pull of the trigger is short and light, which demands the use of a safety-lever.
    (The Glock is a special case. I classify it as DAO, but other people disagree with this.)
    Firstly, thank God you referred to Double Action trigger designs in their proper manner; Double Action. It is a pet peeve of mine that they have been referred to over the past 10+ years as Double Action/Single Action (DA/SA). Anyone who has been around this for a while knows that the DA designation automatically means that the gun is DA/SA so the "/SA" part of the designation is inferred. I suspect this DA/SA designation came about because with the popularity of DAO pistols, some new folks to this game were getting confused.

    As to the Glock pistol, it is a true DAO without second strike capability. I have gotten in a number of discussions (arguments?) with people on several websites about this very subject. Action type designation always refers to the task(s) the trigger carries out. In the case of the Glock, the trigger performs two distinct tasks to fire the weapon. It completes the cocking of the striker and it releases the striker, enabling it to ignite a cartridge. Some like to include the fact that it also moves the striker block safety out of the path of the striker, but that is generally not considered as part of the action (for some reason).

    In one particular website discussion, my opponent was so intent upon maintaining his stance that I called Glock and spoke with a tech. He assure me that the Glock design is DAO and that the BATFE also designates their design as DAO.

    There is another designation that could be applied to modern pistols and that would be SAO (Single Action Only). Two examples of this would be the Springfield Armory XD series and the Smith and Wesson M&P series. In the case of these designs, the striker is held in a fully cocked condition and the trigger only releases the sear (of course, there is the same striker safety block issue with these pistols, too). However, they are both designated as DAO pistols.

    As for DA's and their long first pull triggers (best example is the Beretta 92 series/Taurus 92 series), the Kahr line of DAO pistols also have long (3/8ths of an inch) and smoothly consistent trigger pulls which makes them safer than Glocks or Glock designed pistols to carry in jacket pockets or purses. While I would not recommend this, I have carried pistols like this in a jacket pocket on occasion.

  15. #164
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Re: Do you carry your Glock condition 1?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLAGuy View Post
    So would a beretta px4 storm apply to this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    I've never handled a Storm, but I believe that it has a "traditional double-action" (TDA) trigger and a slide-mounted safety-lever.
    A TDA-trigger gun does not really need a safety lever, except, perhaps, to de-cock its hammer safely.
    It can be carried safely with its safety off. That's the so-called "Condition Zero": Ready to fire as soon as its trigger is pulled.
    Why is this true?
    Because it takes such a long and relatively hard trigger pull, to fire the first shot, that it is highly unlikely that the pistol will be accidentally or negligently fired.
    Nevertheless, the only safe way to carry your Beretta Storm with its safety off, is in a holster which completely covers the pistol's trigger-guard and trigger.
    Further, you need to be very, very careful when you re-holster your pistol, that absolutely nothing ever gets into the gun's trigger-guard during the re-holstering process. It has happened that a shirt tail or hem has accidentally inserted itself into a trigger-guard and, as the pistol is thrust into its holster, that little wisp of cloth presses the trigger hard enough to fire a shot.

    I think that the re-holstering process might benefit from the use of a TDA pistol's safety lever: Point the gun in a safe direction. Set the safety to "on," thereby dropping the gun's hammer. Carefully re-holster. Finally, set the safety-lever to "off."
    Condition zero would be hammer back safety off, how the Beretta would be after chambering a round prior to being decocked. Hammer down on a loaded chamber safety off is still condition 1 for the Beretta.

    The condition codes were origianlly created around the 1911 and trying to shoehorn other guns into those codes can be problematic if you stick to the exact text of the codes...

    To be continued....

  16. #165
    TheLAGuy is offline Banned
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    Yeah but with a Beretta you can be safety off, one in the chamber, and hammer back. I think that would be considered condition zero?

    Also Steve, I believe Beretta is considered SA/DA. AFter that first shot, that hammer comes back and is in DA mode.

  17. #166
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    Re: Do you carry your Glock condition 1?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLAGuy View Post
    Yeah but with a Beretta you can be safety off, one in the chamber, and hammer back. I think that would be considered condition zero?

    Also Steve, I believe Beretta is considered SA/DA. AFter that first shot, that hammer comes back and is in DA mode.
    Yes on the first part, partially correct on the 2nd part.

    the terms Double Action, DA/SA.(note that DA comes first) or traditional double action (TDA) all mean the same thing.

    Double action first shot (assuming the gun has been decocked prior to firing) and the follow up shots are single action.

  18. #167
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    Re: Do you carry your Glock condition 1?

    ^ This.

  19. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLAGuy View Post
    Yeah but with a Beretta you can be safety off, one in the chamber, and hammer back. I think that would be considered condition zero?

    Also Steve, I believe Beretta is considered SA/DA. AFter that first shot, that hammer comes back and is in DA mode.
    You have this backwards.

  20. #169
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    I agree with the magority, if its not loaded its worthless.

    Stoy

  21. #170
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    Yes....always C1

  22. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by StainlessSteel215 View Post
    For those who can legally carry, either open or (preferably) concealed......do you carry your Glock with one in the pipe?
    yes i do. this, to me, is the only reasonable way to carry any firearm, ie: ready to go (manual safety not withstanding). if the pistol is in any other condition you may as well draw it and throw it at the BG and run away since that is most likely all the time you will have before you are overrun.

    my carry Glock 27 - C1. the ol' lady's Glock 22 truck gun - C1. in fact every gun in my house that is loaded is chambered and ready to go.

  23. #172
    just for fun is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by VAMarine View Post
    I don't always carry a Glock, but when I do, it's properly loaded.
    I'm old school and won't carry a glock. Prefered carry is a Smith J frame, second choice is a Smith Model 39 and it's carried with a round chambered, hammer down. Both have been carried for years (one at a time) and trust both beyond question. Too old to re-learn how to keep from the "glock leg" thing.

  24. #173
    paratrooper is offline Senior Member
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    I couldn't remember if I had already responded to this thread and it's topic.......Carrying with a round in the tube.

    Anyways, I was too lazy to read thru all the pages to see if I had infact, responded.

    There's no way in this world that I would carry any firearm, unless it was totally in battery and ready to shoot. Carrying a semi-auto w/o a round in the chamber, is as nutty as carrying a revolver with the hammer on an empty chamber.

    Now I suppose there's some very old cowboy style revolvers that pretty much require you to carry with an empty chamber. Since I'm not into that type of revolver, I'm not going to worry about it.

    But, back to the topic. If you feel the need to carry and you're not comfortable with a round in the chamber, you might want to consider why you even want to carry in the first place.

    Just sayin..............

  25. #174
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    Maybe they like doing an Israeli Draw? I would never do it, but apparently some prefer this draw for some reason.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bszh...e_gdata_player

    Not a fan of this technique... I'll stick with fully loaded with 1 in the chamber. Guy in the video also should stop using a "bowling" technique when he demontrates a "regular" draw.

  26. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAPnRACK View Post
    Maybe they like doing an Israeli Draw? I would never do it, but apparently some prefer this draw for some reason.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bszh...e_gdata_player

    Not a fan of this technique... I'll stick with fully loaded with 1 in the chamber. Guy in the video also should stop using a "bowling" technique when he demontrates a "regular" draw.

    As long as there is a camera handy and plenty of spare time to kill, someone will come up with an alternative to a conventional carry and/or draw.

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