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  1. #121
    TheLAGuy is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unarmedwelshman View Post
    Living here in Wales, UK, I need to follow just a couple of quick steps to access my weapon.

    1. find a stepladder
    2. use stepladder to open the loft hatch
    3. move stepladder out of the way
    4. pull loft ladder down from loft (noisy)
    5. climb ladder into loft and fumble around for the light switch
    6. flick spider off my head
    7. find gun cabinet keys
    8. open 2 x locks in guncabinet
    9. take out AR-15
    10. open different cabinet which by law my ammunition has to be kept in
    11. combine ammunition with aforementioned AR-15
    12. flick spiders big friend off my head
    13. climb out of loft with AR-15
    14. I am now armed

    I challenge any of you guys to draw your CCW faster than I can access mine!
    Isnt that super illegal in Wales?

  2. #122
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unarmedwelshman View Post
    Living here in Wales, UK, I need to follow just a couple of quick steps to access my weapon.

    1. find a stepladder
    2. use stepladder to open the loft hatch
    3. move stepladder out of the way
    4. pull loft ladder down from loft (noisy)
    5. climb ladder into loft and fumble around for the light switch
    6. flick spider off my head
    7. find gun cabinet keys
    8. open 2 x locks in guncabinet
    9. take out AR-15
    10. open different cabinet which by law my ammunition has to be kept in
    11. combine ammunition with aforementioned AR-15
    12. flick spiders big friend off my head
    13. climb out of loft with AR-15
    14. I am now armed

    I challenge any of you guys to draw your CCW faster than I can access mine!

  3. #123
    Unarmedwelshman is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLAGuy View Post
    Isnt that super illegal in Wales?
    Which bit? Flicking spiders off my head? Yes but only if you dont apologise to the spider!

  4. #124
    pic
    pic is offline Senior Member HGF Gold Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unarmedwelshman View Post
    Living here in Wales, UK, I need to follow just a couple of quick steps to access my weapon.

    1. find a stepladder
    2. use stepladder to open the loft hatch
    3. move stepladder out of the way
    4. pull loft ladder down from loft (noisy)
    5. climb ladder into loft and fumble around for the light switch
    6. flick spider off my head
    7. find gun cabinet keys
    8. open 2 x locks in guncabinet
    9. take out AR-15
    10. open different cabinet which by law my ammunition has to be kept in
    11. combine ammunition with aforementioned AR-15
    12. flick spiders big friend off my head
    13. climb out of loft with AR-15
    14. I am now armed

    I challenge any of you guys to draw your CCW faster than I can access mine!

  5. #125
    SteamboatWillie is online now Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by pic View Post
    Disengaging a safety is a very slight physical movement.Pulling your shirt out of the way to get to your handgun is another physical move. Undoing the thumbbreak or retention strap on a holster is another move. Should I not scratch the top of my head because this will create more distance to reach for my side arm. Should I not hold my child's hand while crossing a busy street because it takes one hand to pull my shirt up and reach for my sidearm. What happens if your shoe becomes untied ? I can't look down and tie my shoe,,a bad guy might come a charging
    pic - Many people are comfortable carrying a gun with an external safety. Certainly the 1911 folks. I don't see anything wrong with them doing it, but it's simply not for me.

    My reason for not having an external safety is because if I should forget the "very slight movement" I pull the trigger and the gun doesn't go bang. I'm sure if I started practicing today in a reasonable amount of time I could add it to my draw stroke. But I don't see any reason to change.

    And to see the bad side - I found this account on a website of jewelers. The excerpt below is part of a discussion about whether they should carry a gun or simply try to avoid harm by doing exactly as the thief says. Give up the goods and let them be on their way. The entire article is located here

    "DFC Estate Jewelers, West Palm Beach, Fla.

    Jeweler Jack Schram was working on his taxes in August 1994 when a man came to the door of his store. “I wasn’t paying attention,” he says. “There was a knock on the door. Instinctively I hit the buzzer and then looked up. As soon as I looked up, I knew I made a mistake.” The “customer” was wearing an untucked, baggy shirt, a baseball cap, and sunglasses. “He just didn’t look right,” Schram recalls.

    The man pointed to the counter and blurted out, “How much is that watch?” Says Schram, “He almost asked the question before he looked. I said, 'It’s $500.’ I didn’t even care what it was.” The man turned away. “As he turned, he bent down. I don’t know why, but I knew exactly what he was doing,” says Schram. Knowing that the “customer” was going to draw a weapon, the jeweler pulled out his own gun. “I beat him to the draw. There was only one problem: I forgot to take the safety off. I’m not James Bond. This isn’t something I do all the time.”

    Startled, the intruder opened fire. “He didn’t have to worry about a safety; he had a revolver, a Saturday-night special,” Schram says. “Unfortunately, five of his bullets hit me; four in the abdomen and one in the arm.” A sixth bullet struck the wall. No doubt thinking Schram was going to shoot him, the man ran to the door but couldn’t get out; the security system required Schram to buzz him out. “He comes back to me; I get down on the floor under my desk. I have my gun in my hand. I don’t know why it’s not working. I’m thinking, 'I’m gonna die. I just got shot. I’m not dreaming. I have 2-year-old twin girls.’ ”

    Despite all that happened, the jeweler—who had been the victim of armed robberies twice before the shooting incident—went back to work. But the incident hasn’t changed his mind about guns. He replaced his stolen weapon with a Glock. “It doesn’t have a safety,” he says."


    Adrenalin, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion - all things that need to be dealt with in a life and death situation. That's the reason I prefer to carry handguns that have the same manual of arms and no external safety (and my holsters don't have a thumb break). I'm not saying it's the correct answer for everyone, it's just my my personal decision on method of carry.

  6. #126
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
    SouthernBoy is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by VAMarine View Post
    The Glock trigger is not a tactile indicator of cocked status...

    Remember that whole "keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire" thing? Feeling up on the trigger of a Glock to determine its cocked status is a recipe for a neglgent discharge or some hurt feelings.
    Yes it is. There is a way to do this. Do NOT put your finger inside of the guard, as I'm sure you inferred. In lit conditions, merely look at the trigger to determine whether or not it's cocked. In low or no light conditions, move your finger to the rear outside of the trigger guard and feel for the trigger. Yes you had to do this carefully. But look at it this way. If the firearm has been cocked, the trigger is going to be forward in its position. If not, it won't.

    Mind you, I don't do this because I know what condition my SD guns are in all the time. They are either loaded, in which case there is a round in the chamber, or they are unloaded, in which case the strike is at rest. There are only two cases where I touch my trigger: when practicing with an unloaded gun or when firing it.

    I don't do what I mentioned because I don't need to do this. I only mentioned it because it is possible to determine the state of the firearm by doing these things.

  7. #127
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Deleted due to duplicate post.

  8. #128
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    OK, on a real computer now. Much better then posting from the phone.

    Regarding cocked striker indicators and loaded chamber indicators:

    1: The XD/XDM is better thought out in this regard as both the loaded chamber indicator and cocked striker indicator can be assessed while the gun is in the holster. While the Glock's trigger can be used to determine striker status, it's not thought of specifically as a cocked striker indicator, it's just the trigger. I've never seen it advocated by Glock that that it was intended to be used as such. I could be wrong, but either way it doesn't really matter.

    2: Those indicators, while nice can be wrong as they do get broken. The loaded chamber indicator of the XDM (not sure about the XD, never spent that much time with them) can get broken off. Same with the striker indicator. They should not be relied on.

    3: If you want to know what status your gun is in, do like TapnRack mentioned and do a press check. If there is a round in the chamber, the gun is cocked (referring to Glocks and XD variants) if you want to decock the pistol:

    --Step 1: Check and make sure the gun is not loaded
    --Step 2: Check and make sure the gun is not loaded
    --Step 3: Check and make sure the gun is not loaded

    --Step 4: Aim at a "safe area" and pull the trigger.

    The gun is now de-cocked.


    Your gun is loaded or it is not. The only way to be sure is to visually verify that there is indeed a live round in the chamber or that there is not.

    When loading your gun...provided you don't live in Wales.

    1: Inspect cartridges in magazine
    2: Load mag into gun ensuring it is properly seated. Give it a good yank
    3: Chamber a round.
    4: Perform a press check.
    5: If desired, top-off the magazine ensuring that it is properly seated
    6: Holster firearm / place in designated house gun spot

    After those things are done, DON'T MESS WITH THE GUN

    It will not magically load or unload itself unless it is out of your possession or left unsecured and someone else messes with the gun.

    If out of your immediate possession etc. when you pick up the gun you check it's status by performing a press check and checking the magazine for it's load and to make sure it's firmly seated in the gun.



    If you do decide you want to mess with the gun, see steps 1-4 in blue.

  9. #129
    pic
    pic is offline Senior Member HGF Gold Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteamboatWillie View Post
    pic - Many people are comfortable carrying a gun with an external safety. Certainly the 1911 folks. I don't see anything wrong with them doing it, but it's simply not for me.

    My reason for not having an external safety is because if I should forget the "very slight movement" I pull the trigger and the gun doesn't go bang. I'm sure if I started practicing today in a reasonable amount of time I could add it to my draw stroke. But I don't see any reason to change.

    And to see the bad side - I found this account on a website of jewelers. The excerpt below is part of a discussion about whether they should carry a gun or simply try to avoid harm by doing exactly as the thief says. Give up the goods and let them be on their way. The entire article is located here

    "DFC Estate Jewelers, West Palm Beach, Fla.

    Jeweler Jack Schram was working on his taxes in August 1994 when a man came to the door of his store. “I wasn’t paying attention,” he says. “There was a knock on the door. Instinctively I hit the buzzer and then looked up. As soon as I looked up, I knew I made a mistake.” The “customer” was wearing an untucked, baggy shirt, a baseball cap, and sunglasses. “He just didn’t look right,” Schram recalls.

    The man pointed to the counter and blurted out, “How much is that watch?” Says Schram, “He almost asked the question before he looked. I said, 'It’s $500.’ I didn’t even care what it was.” The man turned away. “As he turned, he bent down. I don’t know why, but I knew exactly what he was doing,” says Schram. Knowing that the “customer” was going to draw a weapon, the jeweler pulled out his own gun. “I beat him to the draw. There was only one problem: I forgot to take the safety off. I’m not James Bond. This isn’t something I do all the time.”

    Startled, the intruder opened fire. “He didn’t have to worry about a safety; he had a revolver, a Saturday-night special,” Schram says. “Unfortunately, five of his bullets hit me; four in the abdomen and one in the arm.” A sixth bullet struck the wall. No doubt thinking Schram was going to shoot him, the man ran to the door but couldn’t get out; the security system required Schram to buzz him out. “He comes back to me; I get down on the floor under my desk. I have my gun in my hand. I don’t know why it’s not working. I’m thinking, 'I’m gonna die. I just got shot. I’m not dreaming. I have 2-year-old twin girls.’ ”

    Despite all that happened, the jeweler—who had been the victim of armed robberies twice before the shooting incident—went back to work. But the incident hasn’t changed his mind about guns. He replaced his stolen weapon with a Glock. “It doesn’t have a safety,” he says."


    Adrenalin, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion - all things that need to be dealt with in a life and death situation. That's the reason I prefer to carry handguns that have the same manual of arms and no external safety (and my holsters don't have a thumb break). I'm not saying it's the correct answer for everyone, it's just my my personal decision on method of carry.
    Very understandable, I do not disagree . I personally become more focused when a situation arises.If the jeweler loses his way and forgets because of whatever, is a glock really a better choice. Maybe he lacks the training . He might not have been very familiar with the gun he chose to carry and lacked the proper training.

  10. #130
    XD40inAVL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLAGuy View Post
    I agree with you, what safety features do the Springfield Armory XD have, was considering picking up one of those bad boys.
    Loaded chamber indicator on top of slide immediately behind ejection port. Easy to see or feel.
    Striker status indicator on end of slide. East to see or feel.
    Grip safety, that is active until you have a proper grip. Also blocks striker making discharge by dropping impossible.
    USA (Ultra Safe Assurance) trigger safety.

  11. #131
    XD40inAVL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pic View Post
    Very understandable, I do not disagree . I personally become more focused when a situation arises.If the jeweler loses his way and forgets because of whatever, is a glock really a better choice. Maybe he lacks the training . He might not have been very familiar with the gun he chose to carry and lacked the proper training.
    XD's also do not have an external safety to prevent firing in a critical situation. Taking the safety off requires lots and lots of practice to develop the "muscle memory" to do it every-time without thinking.

    My choice was made on that, not having to remember the safety when it matters, plus the grip safety, which if you have a proper grip on the gun is not noticeable, plus visual and tactical check of round chambered and striker cocked, handy in the dark while you listen to noises to determine if it's the dog or a BG. We have 3 XD's in the house, and it doesn't matter which may be at hand when needed, they all work the same.

    Nervous about carrying with one in the pipe, carry with only the mag loaded, but striker cocked and carry concealed, carry open around house, draw from time to time (not in public). Do this for a week, and I bet you will be pleasantly surprised to find that the striker is still cocked.

  12. #132
    SteamboatWillie is online now Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by pic View Post
    I personally become more focused when a situation arises.
    And that's why my decision isn't for everyone. You're confident it won't happen to you, and you prefer a gun with a safety. No issues from me.

    Quote Originally Posted by pic View Post
    If the jeweler loses his way and forgets because of whatever, is a glock really a better choice? Maybe he lacks the training . He might not have been very familiar with the gun he chose to carry and lacked the proper training.
    I really can't say, not knowing him or his level of training. Probably yes, maybe no. I will say that I've seen a fairly good shooter try to switch from a DA/SA to a 1911 and do a timed drill. (draw from concealed and get two hits on an 8" target in less than 2 seconds). On his first attempt he called "ready", the buzzer went off and he got on target and... nothing. He gripped the gun as he would his carry gun and that put his thumbs UNDER the safety. He pulled the trigger and the safety was still on. He looked at gun for a second and then realized what he had done. Not a good thing to do had this been a self defense situation.

    So, at the very least, I tend to think that people who rotate their carry gun (as I do) should stick to the same manual of arms. Or at least train with a safety and occasionally carry one without it (it doesn't hurt to swipe off a safety that isn't there.)

    But again, it's their choice and if that's what they feel comfortable doing, it's not for me to judge or criticize.

  13. #133
    pic
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteamboatWillie View Post
    And that's why my decision isn't for everyone. You're confident it won't happen to you, and you prefer a gun with a safety. No issues from me.



    I really can't say, not knowing him or his level of training. Probably yes, maybe no. I will say that I've seen a fairly good shooter try to switch from a DA/SA to a 1911 and do a timed drill. (draw from concealed and get two hits on an 8" target in less than 2 seconds). On his first attempt he called "ready", the buzzer went off and he got on target and... nothing. He gripped the gun as he would his carry gun and that put his thumbs UNDER the safety. He pulled the trigger and the safety was still on. He looked at gun for a second and then realized what he had done. Not a good thing to do had this been a self defense situation.

    So, at the very least, I tend to think that people who rotate their carry gun (as I do) should stick to the same manual of arms. Or at least train with a safety and occasionally carry one without it (it doesn't hurt to swipe off a safety that isn't there.)

    But again, it's their choice and if that's what they feel comfortable doing, it's not for me to judge or criticize.
    Absolutely, very good points, I agree.
    I have been handling firearms for 40 years. I've seen lots of people handling firearms. VAMarine in the upper post is right on the money with all the text, not just step 1,2,3
    But 1, 2, and 3 , Sounds like he has been watching me doing step 1,2,3,.

    --Step 1: Check and make sure the gun is not loaded
    --Step 2: Check and make sure the gun is not loaded
    --Step 3: Check and make sure the gun is not loaded
    I Really like a gun with a safety just in case of a situation where my gun gets out of my possession and into the hands of the bad guy. I do not want them to be able to just pull the trigger.It has happened to me. Lot of details that I can't get into right now. But as he was pulling the trigger on my handgun I knew the safety was engaged. I was able to go for my backup firearm thanks to the safety on my handgun that the bad guy couldn't figure out or new existed. That is why Like you mention ,is my personal choice.

  14. #134
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Re: Do you carry your Glock condition 1?

    Quote Originally Posted by XD40inAVL View Post
    XD's also do not have an external safety to prevent firing in a critical situation. Taking the safety off requires lots and lots of practice to develop the "muscle memory" to do it every-time without thinking.

    My choice was made on that, not having to remember the safety when it matters, plus the grip safety, which if you have a proper grip on the gun is not noticeable

    ....
    The grip safety IS an external safety and you do have to develope the proper muscle memory on acheiving a high, proper grip from the holster in order for the gun to work. I agree that it is more passive than a thumb safety, but it is still most certainly an external safety and one that can render the gun useless of one does not practice.

  15. #135
    smirk43 is offline Junior Member
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    By the time it takes to rack the slide, could mean life or death!

  16. #136
    XD40inAVL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VAMarine View Post
    The grip safety IS an external safety and you do have to develope the proper muscle memory on acheiving a high, proper grip from the holster in order for the gun to work. I agree that it is more passive than a thumb safety, but it is still most certainly an external safety and one that can render the gun useless of one does not practice.
    And you practice that every single time you fire the gun. And if you are not practicing, what in hell are you doing carrying a gun?

    A friends SIL has a CCW, but doesn't even own a gun. Were he to go out a buy any handgun, he could carry without ever firing it. Probably an opportunity for failure or ND.

  17. #137
    pic
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    There is no such thing as "condition one" with a Glock. I think maybe someone already mentioned this.

  18. #138
    RONWEN is offline Junior Member
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    Just as 1911's were designed to be carried "hammer back" Glocks are designed to carry "ready to fire".

  19. #139
    pic
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    Quote Originally Posted by RONWEN View Post
    Just as 1911's were designed to be carried "hammer back" Glocks are designed to carry "ready to fire".
    That is the Best description of a GLOCK. " Ready To Fire Condition "
    I Love my G27, great little piece. I show that Glock a huge amount of respect.

  20. #140
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pic View Post
    There is no such thing as "condition one" with a Glock. I think maybe someone already mentioned this.
    Although this is technically true, the term "Condition One" has a very clear meaning to those of us who shoot: Loaded, and ready to fire.
    "Condition Two" is ambiguous, in terms of the Glock. Therefore, "Condition One" is useful because it is unambiguous.

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