I believe that I'm closer to Jeff Cooper than many of you, in that I have at least met the man and shook his hand.
My mentor was one of the trainers at Gunsite, and a few of my friends also worked there.
So please don't cite Mr. Cooper and his writings to me.
Yes, Jeff Cooper invented the "Condition X" system.
However, that does not make it perfect and immutable. (Sorry, pic: Immutable = unchangeable, unmodifiable, "set in stone.")
Cooper or no Cooper, I believe that "Condition Zero" is another unnecessary complication, and even ambiguous as well.
"Condition Zero" could just as well stand for "completely unloaded and not shootable," as it could for "ready to kill." Think about it.
Glad to hear you had the opportunity to meet a legend in the gun culture. Did you have the opportunity to talk much with him?
Condition 1. Always. That extra 1-2 seconds to rack the slide could end tragically
Yes. Why would you not?
Colonel Cooper was not one to promulgate any kind of ambiguity, and "Condition Zero" is the semantic height of ambiguity.
(I can hear the footsteps now, as pic runs to and from the nearest dictionary.)
The only person I've ever met who could out-assert Cooper was my own mentor, Mike Harries, whom a formerly-famous gunwriter has very properly called "the round mound of sound."
I met a man about six years ago, knew him first on a website, who was quite knowledgeable in gun fighting and related topics. He struck me as rather low key with his postings and when I met him, my original assessment was correct. No flare, no boisterous enunciation, no conceit, and no deliberately projected gugu-type persona... real or imagined. Just a low key, no nonsense, deliberate man about whom you immediately perceived knew his abilities and limitations. He had been in a number of gun fights in his career and I managed to find out that he had sent quite a few of his adversaries to meet their maker. Again, not at all a braggard, just a few things would come out here and there. We became friends and though I haven't seen him in a while, I still hear from him on occasion.
People like this carry a wealth of information. Getting it out of them can be a chore. But keeping your mouth zipped while listening to them can be so rewarding.
Can you guys explain what exactly condition zero is?
A TDA-trigger gun does not really need a safety lever, except, perhaps, to de-cock its hammer safely.
It can be carried safely with its safety off. That's the so-called "Condition Zero": Ready to fire as soon as its trigger is pulled.
Why is this true?
Because it takes such a long and relatively hard trigger pull, to fire the first shot, that it is highly unlikely that the pistol will be accidentally or negligently fired.
Nevertheless, the only safe way to carry your Beretta Storm with its safety off, is in a holster which completely covers the pistol's trigger-guard and trigger.
Further, you need to be very, very careful when you re-holster your pistol, that absolutely nothing ever gets into the gun's trigger-guard during the re-holstering process. It has happened that a shirt tail or hem has accidentally inserted itself into a trigger-guard and, as the pistol is thrust into its holster, that little wisp of cloth presses the trigger hard enough to fire a shot.
I think that the re-holstering process might benefit from the use of a TDA pistol's safety lever: Point the gun in a safe direction. Set the safety to "on," thereby dropping the gun's hammer. Carefully re-holster. Finally, set the safety-lever to "off."
• Traditional Double-Action (TDA, discussed above), in which the first trigger pull is long and hard, but subsequent ones are shorter and lighter.
• Double-Action Only (DAO), in which each and every pull of the trigger is as long and as hard as the TDA's first pull, and which usually does not require a safety-lever.
• Single-Action (SA), in which each and every pull of the trigger is short and light, which demands the use of a safety-lever.
(The Glock is a special case. I classify it as DAO, but other people disagree with this.)
As to the Glock pistol, it is a true DAO without second strike capability. I have gotten in a number of discussions (arguments?) with people on several websites about this very subject. Action type designation always refers to the task(s) the trigger carries out. In the case of the Glock, the trigger performs two distinct tasks to fire the weapon. It completes the cocking of the striker and it releases the striker, enabling it to ignite a cartridge. Some like to include the fact that it also moves the striker block safety out of the path of the striker, but that is generally not considered as part of the action (for some reason).
In one particular website discussion, my opponent was so intent upon maintaining his stance that I called Glock and spoke with a tech. He assure me that the Glock design is DAO and that the BATFE also designates their design as DAO.
There is another designation that could be applied to modern pistols and that would be SAO (Single Action Only). Two examples of this would be the Springfield Armory XD series and the Smith and Wesson M&P series. In the case of these designs, the striker is held in a fully cocked condition and the trigger only releases the sear (of course, there is the same striker safety block issue with these pistols, too). However, they are both designated as DAO pistols.
As for DA's and their long first pull triggers (best example is the Beretta 92 series/Taurus 92 series), the Kahr line of DAO pistols also have long (3/8ths of an inch) and smoothly consistent trigger pulls which makes them safer than Glocks or Glock designed pistols to carry in jacket pockets or purses. While I would not recommend this, I have carried pistols like this in a jacket pocket on occasion.
The condition codes were origianlly created around the 1911 and trying to shoehorn other guns into those codes can be problematic if you stick to the exact text of the codes...
To be continued....
Yeah but with a Beretta you can be safety off, one in the chamber, and hammer back. I think that would be considered condition zero?
Also Steve, I believe Beretta is considered SA/DA. AFter that first shot, that hammer comes back and is in DA mode.
the terms Double Action, DA/SA.(note that DA comes first) or traditional double action (TDA) all mean the same thing.
Double action first shot (assuming the gun has been decocked prior to firing) and the follow up shots are single action.
I agree with the magority, if its not loaded its worthless.
my carry Glock 27 - C1. the ol' lady's Glock 22 truck gun - C1. in fact every gun in my house that is loaded is chambered and ready to go.
I couldn't remember if I had already responded to this thread and it's topic.......Carrying with a round in the tube.
Anyways, I was too lazy to read thru all the pages to see if I had infact, responded.
There's no way in this world that I would carry any firearm, unless it was totally in battery and ready to shoot. Carrying a semi-auto w/o a round in the chamber, is as nutty as carrying a revolver with the hammer on an empty chamber.
Now I suppose there's some very old cowboy style revolvers that pretty much require you to carry with an empty chamber. Since I'm not into that type of revolver, I'm not going to worry about it.
But, back to the topic. If you feel the need to carry and you're not comfortable with a round in the chamber, you might want to consider why you even want to carry in the first place.
Maybe they like doing an Israeli Draw? I would never do it, but apparently some prefer this draw for some reason.
Not a fan of this technique... I'll stick with fully loaded with 1 in the chamber. Guy in the video also should stop using a "bowling" technique when he demontrates a "regular" draw.