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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by VAMarine View Post
    The Glock trigger is not a tactile indicator of cocked status...

    Remember that whole "keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire" thing? Feeling up on the trigger of a Glock to determine its cocked status is a recipe for a neglgent discharge or some hurt feelings.
    Yes it is. There is a way to do this. Do NOT put your finger inside of the guard, as I'm sure you inferred. In lit conditions, merely look at the trigger to determine whether or not it's cocked. In low or no light conditions, move your finger to the rear outside of the trigger guard and feel for the trigger. Yes you had to do this carefully. But look at it this way. If the firearm has been cocked, the trigger is going to be forward in its position. If not, it won't.

    Mind you, I don't do this because I know what condition my SD guns are in all the time. They are either loaded, in which case there is a round in the chamber, or they are unloaded, in which case the strike is at rest. There are only two cases where I touch my trigger: when practicing with an unloaded gun or when firing it.

    I don't do what I mentioned because I don't need to do this. I only mentioned it because it is possible to determine the state of the firearm by doing these things.

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  3. #127
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    Deleted due to duplicate post.

  4. #128
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    OK, on a real computer now. Much better then posting from the phone.

    Regarding cocked striker indicators and loaded chamber indicators:

    1: The XD/XDM is better thought out in this regard as both the loaded chamber indicator and cocked striker indicator can be assessed while the gun is in the holster. While the Glock's trigger can be used to determine striker status, it's not thought of specifically as a cocked striker indicator, it's just the trigger. I've never seen it advocated by Glock that that it was intended to be used as such. I could be wrong, but either way it doesn't really matter.

    2: Those indicators, while nice can be wrong as they do get broken. The loaded chamber indicator of the XDM (not sure about the XD, never spent that much time with them) can get broken off. Same with the striker indicator. They should not be relied on.

    3: If you want to know what status your gun is in, do like TapnRack mentioned and do a press check. If there is a round in the chamber, the gun is cocked (referring to Glocks and XD variants) if you want to decock the pistol:

    --Step 1: Check and make sure the gun is not loaded
    --Step 2: Check and make sure the gun is not loaded
    --Step 3: Check and make sure the gun is not loaded

    --Step 4: Aim at a "safe area" and pull the trigger.

    The gun is now de-cocked.


    Your gun is loaded or it is not. The only way to be sure is to visually verify that there is indeed a live round in the chamber or that there is not.

    When loading your gun...provided you don't live in Wales.

    1: Inspect cartridges in magazine
    2: Load mag into gun ensuring it is properly seated. Give it a good yank
    3: Chamber a round.
    4: Perform a press check.
    5: If desired, top-off the magazine ensuring that it is properly seated
    6: Holster firearm / place in designated house gun spot

    After those things are done, DON'T MESS WITH THE GUN

    It will not magically load or unload itself unless it is out of your possession or left unsecured and someone else messes with the gun.

    If out of your immediate possession etc. when you pick up the gun you check it's status by performing a press check and checking the magazine for it's load and to make sure it's firmly seated in the gun.



    If you do decide you want to mess with the gun, see steps 1-4 in blue.

  5. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteamboatWillie View Post
    pic - Many people are comfortable carrying a gun with an external safety. Certainly the 1911 folks. I don't see anything wrong with them doing it, but it's simply not for me.

    My reason for not having an external safety is because if I should forget the "very slight movement" I pull the trigger and the gun doesn't go bang. I'm sure if I started practicing today in a reasonable amount of time I could add it to my draw stroke. But I don't see any reason to change.

    And to see the bad side - I found this account on a website of jewelers. The excerpt below is part of a discussion about whether they should carry a gun or simply try to avoid harm by doing exactly as the thief says. Give up the goods and let them be on their way. The entire article is located here

    "DFC Estate Jewelers, West Palm Beach, Fla.

    Jeweler Jack Schram was working on his taxes in August 1994 when a man came to the door of his store. “I wasn’t paying attention,” he says. “There was a knock on the door. Instinctively I hit the buzzer and then looked up. As soon as I looked up, I knew I made a mistake.” The “customer” was wearing an untucked, baggy shirt, a baseball cap, and sunglasses. “He just didn’t look right,” Schram recalls.

    The man pointed to the counter and blurted out, “How much is that watch?” Says Schram, “He almost asked the question before he looked. I said, 'It’s $500.’ I didn’t even care what it was.” The man turned away. “As he turned, he bent down. I don’t know why, but I knew exactly what he was doing,” says Schram. Knowing that the “customer” was going to draw a weapon, the jeweler pulled out his own gun. “I beat him to the draw. There was only one problem: I forgot to take the safety off. I’m not James Bond. This isn’t something I do all the time.”

    Startled, the intruder opened fire. “He didn’t have to worry about a safety; he had a revolver, a Saturday-night special,” Schram says. “Unfortunately, five of his bullets hit me; four in the abdomen and one in the arm.” A sixth bullet struck the wall. No doubt thinking Schram was going to shoot him, the man ran to the door but couldn’t get out; the security system required Schram to buzz him out. “He comes back to me; I get down on the floor under my desk. I have my gun in my hand. I don’t know why it’s not working. I’m thinking, 'I’m gonna die. I just got shot. I’m not dreaming. I have 2-year-old twin girls.’ ”

    Despite all that happened, the jeweler—who had been the victim of armed robberies twice before the shooting incident—went back to work. But the incident hasn’t changed his mind about guns. He replaced his stolen weapon with a Glock. “It doesn’t have a safety,” he says."


    Adrenalin, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion - all things that need to be dealt with in a life and death situation. That's the reason I prefer to carry handguns that have the same manual of arms and no external safety (and my holsters don't have a thumb break). I'm not saying it's the correct answer for everyone, it's just my my personal decision on method of carry.
    Very understandable, I do not disagree . I personally become more focused when a situation arises.If the jeweler loses his way and forgets because of whatever, is a glock really a better choice. Maybe he lacks the training . He might not have been very familiar with the gun he chose to carry and lacked the proper training.

  6. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLAGuy View Post
    I agree with you, what safety features do the Springfield Armory XD have, was considering picking up one of those bad boys.
    Loaded chamber indicator on top of slide immediately behind ejection port. Easy to see or feel.
    Striker status indicator on end of slide. East to see or feel.
    Grip safety, that is active until you have a proper grip. Also blocks striker making discharge by dropping impossible.
    USA (Ultra Safe Assurance) trigger safety.

  7. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by pic View Post
    Very understandable, I do not disagree . I personally become more focused when a situation arises.If the jeweler loses his way and forgets because of whatever, is a glock really a better choice. Maybe he lacks the training . He might not have been very familiar with the gun he chose to carry and lacked the proper training.
    XD's also do not have an external safety to prevent firing in a critical situation. Taking the safety off requires lots and lots of practice to develop the "muscle memory" to do it every-time without thinking.

    My choice was made on that, not having to remember the safety when it matters, plus the grip safety, which if you have a proper grip on the gun is not noticeable, plus visual and tactical check of round chambered and striker cocked, handy in the dark while you listen to noises to determine if it's the dog or a BG. We have 3 XD's in the house, and it doesn't matter which may be at hand when needed, they all work the same.

    Nervous about carrying with one in the pipe, carry with only the mag loaded, but striker cocked and carry concealed, carry open around house, draw from time to time (not in public). Do this for a week, and I bet you will be pleasantly surprised to find that the striker is still cocked.

  8. #132
    SteamboatWillie is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by pic View Post
    I personally become more focused when a situation arises.
    And that's why my decision isn't for everyone. You're confident it won't happen to you, and you prefer a gun with a safety. No issues from me.

    Quote Originally Posted by pic View Post
    If the jeweler loses his way and forgets because of whatever, is a glock really a better choice? Maybe he lacks the training . He might not have been very familiar with the gun he chose to carry and lacked the proper training.
    I really can't say, not knowing him or his level of training. Probably yes, maybe no. I will say that I've seen a fairly good shooter try to switch from a DA/SA to a 1911 and do a timed drill. (draw from concealed and get two hits on an 8" target in less than 2 seconds). On his first attempt he called "ready", the buzzer went off and he got on target and... nothing. He gripped the gun as he would his carry gun and that put his thumbs UNDER the safety. He pulled the trigger and the safety was still on. He looked at gun for a second and then realized what he had done. Not a good thing to do had this been a self defense situation.

    So, at the very least, I tend to think that people who rotate their carry gun (as I do) should stick to the same manual of arms. Or at least train with a safety and occasionally carry one without it (it doesn't hurt to swipe off a safety that isn't there.)

    But again, it's their choice and if that's what they feel comfortable doing, it's not for me to judge or criticize.

  9. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteamboatWillie View Post
    And that's why my decision isn't for everyone. You're confident it won't happen to you, and you prefer a gun with a safety. No issues from me.



    I really can't say, not knowing him or his level of training. Probably yes, maybe no. I will say that I've seen a fairly good shooter try to switch from a DA/SA to a 1911 and do a timed drill. (draw from concealed and get two hits on an 8" target in less than 2 seconds). On his first attempt he called "ready", the buzzer went off and he got on target and... nothing. He gripped the gun as he would his carry gun and that put his thumbs UNDER the safety. He pulled the trigger and the safety was still on. He looked at gun for a second and then realized what he had done. Not a good thing to do had this been a self defense situation.

    So, at the very least, I tend to think that people who rotate their carry gun (as I do) should stick to the same manual of arms. Or at least train with a safety and occasionally carry one without it (it doesn't hurt to swipe off a safety that isn't there.)

    But again, it's their choice and if that's what they feel comfortable doing, it's not for me to judge or criticize.
    Absolutely, very good points, I agree.
    I have been handling firearms for 40 years. I've seen lots of people handling firearms. VAMarine in the upper post is right on the money with all the text, not just step 1,2,3
    But 1, 2, and 3 , Sounds like he has been watching me doing step 1,2,3,.

    --Step 1: Check and make sure the gun is not loaded
    --Step 2: Check and make sure the gun is not loaded
    --Step 3: Check and make sure the gun is not loaded
    I Really like a gun with a safety just in case of a situation where my gun gets out of my possession and into the hands of the bad guy. I do not want them to be able to just pull the trigger.It has happened to me. Lot of details that I can't get into right now. But as he was pulling the trigger on my handgun I knew the safety was engaged. I was able to go for my backup firearm thanks to the safety on my handgun that the bad guy couldn't figure out or new existed. That is why Like you mention ,is my personal choice.

  10. #134
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Re: Do you carry your Glock condition 1?

    Quote Originally Posted by XD40inAVL View Post
    XD's also do not have an external safety to prevent firing in a critical situation. Taking the safety off requires lots and lots of practice to develop the "muscle memory" to do it every-time without thinking.

    My choice was made on that, not having to remember the safety when it matters, plus the grip safety, which if you have a proper grip on the gun is not noticeable

    ....
    The grip safety IS an external safety and you do have to develope the proper muscle memory on acheiving a high, proper grip from the holster in order for the gun to work. I agree that it is more passive than a thumb safety, but it is still most certainly an external safety and one that can render the gun useless of one does not practice.

  11. #135
    smirk43 is offline Junior Member
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    By the time it takes to rack the slide, could mean life or death!

  12. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by VAMarine View Post
    The grip safety IS an external safety and you do have to develope the proper muscle memory on acheiving a high, proper grip from the holster in order for the gun to work. I agree that it is more passive than a thumb safety, but it is still most certainly an external safety and one that can render the gun useless of one does not practice.
    And you practice that every single time you fire the gun. And if you are not practicing, what in hell are you doing carrying a gun?

    A friends SIL has a CCW, but doesn't even own a gun. Were he to go out a buy any handgun, he could carry without ever firing it. Probably an opportunity for failure or ND.

  13. #137
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    There is no such thing as "condition one" with a Glock. I think maybe someone already mentioned this.

  14. #138
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    Just as 1911's were designed to be carried "hammer back" Glocks are designed to carry "ready to fire".

  15. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by RONWEN View Post
    Just as 1911's were designed to be carried "hammer back" Glocks are designed to carry "ready to fire".
    That is the Best description of a GLOCK. " Ready To Fire Condition "
    I Love my G27, great little piece. I show that Glock a huge amount of respect.

  16. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by pic View Post
    There is no such thing as "condition one" with a Glock. I think maybe someone already mentioned this.
    Although this is technically true, the term "Condition One" has a very clear meaning to those of us who shoot: Loaded, and ready to fire.
    "Condition Two" is ambiguous, in terms of the Glock. Therefore, "Condition One" is useful because it is unambiguous.

  17. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    Although this is technically true, the term "Condition One" has a very clear meaning to those of us who shoot: Loaded, and ready to fire.
    "Condition Two" is ambiguous, in terms of the Glock. Therefore, "Condition One" is useful because it is unambiguous.
    Understandable, If an instructor commanded his students to " condition one " and the students guns were of different models would a 1911 be cocked n locked or just cocked with round chambered . Thanks

  18. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by pic View Post
    ...If an instructor commanded his students to " condition one " and the students guns were of different models would a 1911 be cocked n locked or just cocked with round chambered . Thanks
    The "Condition X" terminology was created for use with the 1911 platform. The Conditions, in 1911 terms, mean exactly:
    • Condition One—magazine loaded and in place, chamber loaded, hammer cocked, safety on.
    • Condition Two—magazine loaded and in place, chamber loaded, hammer down (which is completely safe, in a 1911), safety off.
    • Condition Three—magazine loaded and in place, chamber empty, hammer down, safety off.

    For Glocks, "Condition One" and "Condition Two" are both ambiguous, and maybe even interchangeable. Therefore, it is safest—and least ambiguous—to consider a fully loaded and ready-to-fire Glock (or Springfield, or whatever) to be in "Condition One." Therefore, for a Glock, there is no "Condition Two."

    In the 1911, "Condition Two" was created (but not yet called that) for use by the US Cavalry. The cavalry trooper was to carry in "Condition Two," and was to draw and thumb-cock with his master hand when the pistol was needed. Obviously, the trooper's other hand was occupied in controlling his horse. This is the reason for the 1911's "half-cock" notch, which really isn't a half-cock at all, but rather a means of safely catching a slipped and falling hammer during a botched cavalry-style draw.
    "Condition Two" will eventually lead to an unsafe maneuver. Should the "half-cock" notch chip or otherwise fail, a botched attempt to thumb-cock over a loaded chamber may lead to a negligent discharge. No experienced, safety-minded 1911 shooter ever uses "Condition Two."

  19. #143
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    Yes, I do. There are times when cycling the slide creates too much noise, so I carry mine ready to shoot.

  20. #144
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    As long as its holstered properly, why not?

  21. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by pic View Post
    Understandable, If an instructor commanded his students to " condition one " and the students guns were of different models would a 1911 be cocked n locked or just cocked with round chambered . Thanks
    That would be condition zero; a loaded and chambered gun, cocked without the safety engaged. This is not possible with an OEM Glock.

    "Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off."

  22. #146
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    To me, at least, "Condition Zero" is mostly a quibble, and confuses the issue.
    The term "Condition One" and its meaning is almost universally known: It's a gun that's ready to fire.
    Why complicate the concept?

  23. #147
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    I can understand my confusion why the term condition one could be universal with all the different variations of handguns when the terms were mainly defined for the 1911.
    Doing a little bit of research. (click here) Jeff Cooper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The conditional terms were promulgated with just the 1911 in mind by Mr. cooper.
    Cooper favored the Colt M1911 and its variants. There are several conditions of readiness in which such a weapon can be carried. Cooper promulgated most of the following terms:
    Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.
    Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
    Condition Two: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
    Condition One: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
    Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.
    Some of these configurations are safer than others (for instance, a single action pistol without a firing pin safety such as a transfer bar system should never be carried in Condition 2), while others are quicker to fire the gun (Condition 1). In the interest of consistent training, most agencies that issue the 1911 specify the condition in which it is to be carried as a matter of local doctrine.

    This firearm condition system can also be used to refer to other firearm actions, particularly when illustrating the differences between carry modes considered to be safe for various actions. For example, DA/SA is designed to be carried in Condition 2, which is not safe for 1911s without firing pin safeties. PROMULGATED IS THE BIG WORD HERE,lol.

    I'm still trying to get the word Ambiguous out of my head. I had to look it up in the dictionary, Thanks Steve M1911A1, for putting that word out there to screw with me,lol. like a song you here and it stays in your head,lol. AMBIGUOUS, wtf.lol.
    (I'm calling out loud ) WIFE WHAT THE HECK DOES AMBIGUOUS MEAN, STEVE DID IT AGAIN TO ME.LOL. iS THAT THE SAME GUY WHO PUT HOPLOPHOBE IN YOUR HEAD A FEW WEEKS AGO,LOL.YES THE SAME GUY WHO LIVES ON KILLER WHALES.

  24. #148
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    To me, at least, "Condition Zero" is mostly a quibble, and confuses the issue.
    The term "Condition One" and its meaning is almost universally known: It's a gun that's ready to fire.
    Why complicate the concept?
    It's not my invention; it's Mr. Cooper's.

    I don't see where he complicated the issue. Now Condition Zero is not a condition the Glock can take since the operator has no control over any of the safeties built into the gun. If the striker is in its half cocked position, then the internal safety block is doing its job, blocking the striker from moving forward. I'm sure most folks know that Jeff Cooper came up with his "conditions" using the 1911 as his guide. So for that design, Condition Zero makes prefect sense, especially when one considers the fact that Cooper served as a Marine in WWII and dispatched at least three of the enemy with his sidearm.

  25. #149
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    The most important means of surviving a lethal confrontation, according to Cooper, is neither the weapon nor the martial skills. The primary tool is the combat mindset, set forth in his book, Principles of Personal Defense.[5] In the chapter on awareness, Cooper presents an adaptation of the Marine Corps system to differentiate states of readiness:


    More importantly then the condition of your carry gun ,,is your state of awareness according to one's
    Combat Mindset—The Cooper Color Code

  26. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by pic View Post
    The most important means of surviving a lethal confrontation, according to Cooper, is neither the weapon nor the martial skills. The primary tool is the combat mindset, set forth in his book, Principles of Personal Defense.[5] In the chapter on awareness, Cooper presents an adaptation of the Marine Corps system to differentiate states of readiness:


    More importantly then the condition of your carry gun ,,is your state of awareness according to one's
    Combat Mindset—The Cooper Color Code
    I agree with this. The willingness to do extreme violence to someone very quickly without hesitation is something I don't know how to teach. What gets good people injured or killed in an extreme encounter is the fact that they really don't want to hurt someone. They question the situation ("Is this really happening to me, right now?), they hesitate ("Maybe I can scare them and they'll go away.), and they lack aggressive assuredness to do what must be done. We so frequently hear keyboard commandos and other braggarts say they would to this or they would do that, but in fact they would probably crap their pants if faced with an extreme situation like right now. Unless you have done this before, you are never really sure how you'll react to a violent attack until it happens.

    War taught Mr. Cooper how to act and tens upon tens of thousands of Americans like him. Those of us who have never been faced with our own potential death, can only surmise how we would handle ourselves in an extreme and violent encounter.

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