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  1. #61
    SMann is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by dondavis3 View Post

    Grip angle-I like it
    decent backstrap system-fits my hand fine as is
    decent slide serrations/grippiness. I can rack my slide just fine
    Full ambidextrous .I'm right handed
    Removable backstraps.-fits my hand fine as is
    Did I mention Grip angle - oh ya I did-I like it
    Texturing that doesn't rip skin off (the RTF).the texturing doesn't slip or rip for me
    Stainless steel slide-my slide shows no signs of corrosion
    Stainless Steel guide rods-my guide rod works just fine
    Grip Safety-a worthless feature that just adds more parts that can fail in my opinion
    Loaded chamber indicator-a worthless feature that just adds more parts that can fail in my opinion
    Cocked striker indicator-a worthless feature that just adds more parts that can fail in my opinion
    Don't have to pull trigger to take down-not sure why that's a problem for those that can clear their weapon properly
    and many more-uh, ok
    My hammer doesn't need to be pretty or have fancy features as long as I can swing it well and it will reliably drive a nail. If Glock keeps chasing the market, I will never own a Glock newer than my Gen 3. I prefer a company that builds tools that appeal to professionals, not the general population.

  2. #62
    tacman605's Avatar
    tacman605 is offline Junior Member
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    SMann. I agree. The Gen 3 fits me fine. Down the road I may try a Gen 4 just for fun but the changing backstrap issue is not a big deal to me. Decent sights, some stippling and lots of mags and I am good to go.

  3. #63
    rex
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    Tacman

    The officer I mentioned was in lower Canada as I recall.Looked like an official report and said the gun smacked the steering wheel and went off,they found a piece of rail inside somewhere and torquing the grip caused it.All info of this disappeared within days of me seeing it,and my copy is sitting inside a toasted computer.Sounds out there,but I don't have a Glock to tear into to see what could or couldn't be.The few 9s I shot flexed more than my HK 45 though.

    "When Glock first hit the market years ago they changed the way people looked at handguns. From the materials used in the frame to the trigger it went against everything that everyone knew in regards to firearms."

    I disagree on this other than marketing and timing were what changed the way people saw it.Everything about the Glock had been done previously by at least 15 years,except the trigger.This is the flaw to me.As you said,there isn't a safety,so what's the reason for putting a useless bar in the trigger?While there is a long pull,it isn't that long and it's light,it ain't no revolver with a decent trigger job.I've never heard of more NDs out of any gun throughout it's life,there ia a flaw.I agree 100% with you about training,but I can't believe everyone all of a sudden got stupid in 1986 or whatever.I wouldn't have a big problem carrying that type trigger,but I think HK has a better setup.

    Just my view on them,but nobody has changed my view much on them since they hit the market here.

    Thank you for saying it's not a beginner's gun basically,I always said it was intended for the opposite of original intent.The NDs cover a wide range of people's training and familiarity with it,not a gun for a newb.

  4. #64
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    Rex who made a polymer framed, striker fired pistol 15 years before Glock? I have not been able to find any. Please let me know.

    In the 80's and before LE had transitioned from revolvers to DA Autos with their long DA first shot and hammer drop safeties then to Glocks that did not have a long heavy trigger pull and no external safety. There are safeties on Glock handguns they are simply not manually operated safeties except for the trigger bar.

    Without training no gun is a beginners gun it is just some or more forgiving to mistakes. HK's variant 7 or whatever it is has a DAO trigger, safety and an extra strength rubber band to keep it from being fired but it would be difficult for a beginner to shoot it well simply because of the trigger. Glocks do exactly what they are supposed to do, point at target, pull the trigger the thing people have to realize is that they cannot be handled as casually as other firearms.

  5. #65
    rex
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    HK was the first to make a polymer framed pistol 15 years before the Glock,the VP70.They also made the P7 series which were a better designed striker system,but striker guns were already out before that.The only thing Glock did was put the 2 previous designs together.Beretta did the same with a revolver's DA and a semi auto design,2 different systems were incorporated into 1.I say Beretta because they''re the first DA/SA that I recall,but they may not have been the first to do it.

    I understand what you're saying about the safeties,we think alike there.All guns have some sort of disconnect safety to prevent burst fire and firing out of battery,and the firing pin safety only comes into play for dropping the gun,everything on top of that is what is seen as a user safety.Why put that safety in the trigger is completely beyond me,it makes it null and void.A child finds the gun,the safety is useless,touch the trigger the safety is useless,catch the edge of a collapsed holster the the safety is useless.The collapsed holster happened to a member of 1911Forum a few years ago reholstering his Glock,and he posted pictures and I believe the new drainhole in his floorboard.

    I agree entirely with you on the training,some people just don't train the trigger finger the way it should be and that is the cause of the majority of NDs.Glock designed the gun for the masses,meaning the untrained and idiots.We both agree the gun is not great for that market.Where I think Glock failed is going with too short a stroke and too light on the trigger,that's the exact reason for the new phenomena of Glock leg.I'm sure it's happening with M&Ps and XDs but Glock gets the most attention for it since they came up with the design.This is a gun designed for people that know how to handle a gun.I've had the safety knocked off on my 1911s at times over the years,I didn't freak,it's basically now a Glock with a nicer trigger.What can happen?Nothing if you don't touch the damn trigger.There's something about the Glock that causes a false sense of security that get people in trouble,maybe the term safe action,I don't know.While I agree 99% of the blame falls on the operator,Glock is partly responsible for pushing (marketing) a gun that goes bang so easily into the hands of inexperienced people.When they came out I said this is going to be dangerous in alot of people's hands,and I'll be damned if it didn't happen.Then there was the NY trigger to cure idiots from endangering everyone.That was pure brilliance because these guys have a hard time hitting a target as is,now lets crank up the trigger weight.Why alot of cops don't learn the one tool that will keep them alive at the worst moment in your life is beyond me.

    HK's DAO is rude,like alot of others,but the LEM eliminates that old style system and works just like the Glock in principle.The hammer is 2 pieces,the internal stays cocked and the external follows the slide.When you pull the trigger you're only cocking the external under light spring pressure and moving the FPB out of the way.If something happens you have second strike capability at the harder DAO pull.Tactically you clear on a dud,but in the unlikely event something happens to the sear,spring,or hammer hook,or what would be equivolent to trapping a striker,you can still use the gun.The reset is more than a Glock,but it's a pretty good high 4lb trigger.I may set mine up with one,but I've always carried C&L so I'm in no hurry when I have more important things to worry about.

    I'm not ragging you or anything like that because there's just too many things I don't like about the design,but I won't say they aren't a good gun if you like the design.I forgot to say it earlier,thank you for your service and stay safe man.

  6. #66
    rex
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    Oops,it double posted.

  7. #67
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    Ah yes you are correct. I owned a VP70 for a very short time, god what a trigger, and also had the P7. If I remember right once the squeeze cocker was depressed the factory trigger pull was like 2.5 pounds or something way to light but it shot very well. It did get hot around the gas piston though.
    The P7 though had the same "generally speaking" design as the Glock in that unless the squeeze cocker was depressed fully the gun would not fire. Same principal with the Glock unless the trigger bar is depressed the gun will not fire.

    I don't think you are ragging at all some like one gun some like others. The simplicity of a weapon like this, Glock, M&P, XD, or whatever can be a blessing and a curse. Under a stress type situation you want simple but you have to train for that situation. Yep folks have had ND/AD's while drawing/reholstering with Glocks, 1911's and several others the first thing most did was blame the holster or the gun. Serpa holsters are the main ones. Holster design has changed a lot over the years with more rigid kydex being used instead of nylon or soft leather.

    I also found that the installation of a New York trigger on the Glock gave a more consistent "revolver like" trigger pull which could/would lead to less incidents of mistakes. On the Glock 18 we ran the standard trigger would lead to uncontrollable bursts of 4 or 5 rounds but after installing the NY trigger you could easily fire1-2-3 round bursts at will.

    I have owned and shot several HK long guns but have only shot a few of their handguns, and owned even less. Our local SO had the DAO variant that I spoke of and except for a keylock or combination code to get the gun to fire I don't know how they could have made a more non user friendly gun but to each his own. They make great products they simply just never flipped my cookie.

  8. #68
    Nanuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rex View Post
    A child finds the gun,the safety is useless,touch the trigger the safety is useless,catch the edge of a collapsed holster the the safety is useless.The collapsed holster happened to a member of 1911Forum a few years ago reholstering his Glock,and he posted pictures and I believe the new drainhole in his floorboard.

    While I agree 99% of the blame falls on the operator,Glock is partly responsible for pushing (marketing) a gun that goes bang so easily into the hands of inexperienced people.

    HK's DAO is rude,like alot of others,but the LEM eliminates that old style system and works just like the Glock in principle.
    Rex,

    You cannot really expect the design of a firearm to take into account basic safety, storage and safe gun handling skills concerns anymore than you can expect them to protect you from using a faulty, worn out holster. You must run the gun, not the other way around.

    H&K's are great guns. My last duty gun was a P2000 and I am an H&K armorer. I had 15,000 rounds through my H&K, not one failure of any kind. I shoot a Glock better, it holds one more round, it is smaller, lighter and I can actually get parts if I need any.

    The rational that the LEM in principal operates like a Glock means it operates like a double action revolver too.

  9. #69
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    Because, for me, Glocks are ugly and don't fit the hand as comfortably as many other hanguns. Don't believe anyone said Glocks don't shoot properly. They do.

  10. #70
    Todd is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by rex View Post
    I agree entirely with you on the training, some people just don't train the trigger finger the way it should be and that is the cause of the majority of NDs.
    I read that line and immediately thought of my mother's husband. Hand the guy a gun and his finger goes right to the trigger, like Rosie O'Donnell towards an all-you-can-eat buffet. And then he will sweep you a few times for good measure. A Glock decidedly would NOT be the gun for him!

  11. #71
    rex
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    That was funny Todd,but ain't it the truth.With the handgun frenzy over the last years,the mall ninjas and idiots have multiplied like rabbits.

    Nanuk,yes,technically both the Glock and HK LEM are a modified DA like a revolver.I see them as a crappy SA but they really are DA.I see what you're saying about the safety,etc,and agree.What gets me is that Glock made and marketed this for the uneducated masses,shall we say.As Todd gives a fine example of,putting a safety in the trigger is just stupid and a useless part.I see no situation it could prove useful,a collapsed holster defeated it,so a finger,stick,anything makes it null and void.I'm thinking that block gives people a false sense of security,they see it there but don't realize just how easy it is to override.If they just left it off I think it may be a little different,but who's to say.The P7 was cool,pull that trigger all you want,unless you deliberately squeeze the grip it's safe.It wasn't anything that you had to struggle with,but you had to intentionally use a firing grip to operate it.Just my view on it.

  12. #72
    Nanuk's Avatar
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    I am of the camp that training overcomes any perceived lack of safety.

    When Tex shot himself and proclaimed it on you-tube it was blamed on the Serpa holster, not the 1911 when in reality it was his lack of training.

    When a guy with a worn out leather holster shoots the gun while fidgeting with it, it is blamed on the Glock.

    A gun does no go bang without hitting the bang switch. If your gear is unserviceable or you lack the proper attention to safely holster the gun, it is not the fault of the gun. How many safeties are needed on a handgun?

    What gets me is that Glock made and marketed this for the uneducated masses,shall we say
    Gunny & Glock - Wrong Diner - Extended Version - YouTube

    The P7 was actually an inferior design if you intended to do any high volume shooting, due to the gas being vented into the frame of the gun.

    Ya I guess they do.

  13. #73
    rex
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    It wasn't an inferior design,it was well thought out for it's purpose,LE.I;ve known people to shoot them in matches and do very well with them,but you need time between stages because 50 rounds are about it at one time.I agree with you guys on the training deal,but the fact remains that no gun I know of in the last century has had so many NDs in such a short timeframe.Yes,it's keeping the finger off the trigger,but how many DA revolvers go off?It's a design flaw,the original 1911 design would be in the same boat if it wasn't changed,plain and simple.While the 1911 has a shorter takeup,I've seen nastier pulls than a Glock's.Using that comparison which puts the 2 triggers in a similar situation for a discharge,would you carry a 1911 condition 0?I have,but the gun doesn't live in that mode.

  14. #74
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    The original 1911 design did not have a thumb safety, JMB thought it unnecessary, the Army wanted it.

    My bad it was the grip safety.

  15. #75
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    Well, I saw something today at qualifications. A Glock 27 RSA broke and rendered the gun inoperable.

    Who da thunk it?

  16. #76
    rex
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    Forgive my ignorance but what's the RSA?

    Actually you were correct on the 1911,there was no thumb safety on the original design.I can't recall if JMB or the military changed that though.

  17. #77
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    Why the glock hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by rex View Post
    Forgive my ignorance but what's the RSA?

    Actually you were correct on the 1911,there was no thumb safety on the original design.I can't recall if JMB or the military changed that though.
    Recoil spring assembly.

  18. #78
    rex
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    Yep,sorry.

  19. #79
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    For me, the Glocks although very functional do not have the visual appeal that certain Berettas or S&W's do. That being said, I have the 26 for my carry gun and I like it a lot. In my line of work I come in contact with a lot of cops. They all carry Glocks.

  20. #80
    rex
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    I take it all the cops you come in contact with carry them,because it's not true of a blanket statement.A good portion have no choice and have to carry them,and not all of them like it.Some do,but there are some that have choices and pick something else or spend their own money on something else on an approved list.Glock isn't as popular as they were any more,slowly departments are changing away from them and dealing with the financial problem.Glock is so popular because of their marketing propaganda and the fact they practically give them away to LE.

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