Pretty well explained in the above post. I hear a lot more people praising the Glock than hating it. Americans /humans enjoy being against anything & especially the establishment. Goes with the turf. They are not the most beautiful weapon ever made but if you you want a weapon that goes bang every time you pull the trigger there is no need to go further to find your solution. I also think their shape makes them a tad tough to cc well. When I get a gun I like, it is hard to argue with as I shoot it so much I can stack 'em in there. If having a reliable gun is a bias, let 'em hate.
I posted my thoughts on page 1 of this thread but will add a few here, if you folks don't mind.
You best friend in taking any decision is to exercise the clients. In other words, go to a range and shoot them. Preferably with a friend who owns guns which you are considering. Next best thing is renting at the range if that is an option.
We can look at the history and reputation of given defensive handguns and glean a measure of factual data as to the trustworthiness of your selection. And this is a very good thing to do. The next thing is to examine the guns very carefully, looking at things that many folks overlook or don't thing about when making a purchase.
How hard is it to "rack" the slide? How hard is it to release the slide stop? How hard is it to load the magazines (compare the Glock to the M&P in 9mm and you'll know what I mean with this one)? What about the shape of the trigger guard? How hard is it to detail strip? Are replacement parts readily available and can you install them yourself? What is the shape, width, and angle of the feed ramp? Is the magazine release easy to use yet secure from accidental activation? Does the bore axis height work for you? Are the sights good (can you obtain a sight acquisition and a sight picture reasonably quick)? How hard is the gun going to be to clean?
There are a host of other questions and points to consider when deciding upon a defensive firearm, but all of this pales when weighed against the one primary and major concern: does it go bang when it is suppose to? The loudest sound in the world in an extreme encounter is "click". Reliability is paramount and supersedes all other considerations.
I've owned the 19 and 17 glocks, same gun different barrel and slide. Only thing I didn't like was the trigger, could have fixed it for a round $100. Everything about a glock is "drop in" so you really don't need a smith to repair one if you can get the parts your need. I have also owned a couple of Rugers, a couple of CZ's a Beretta. a Stoeger, a couple of Smiths and now carrying a FNP. I have never owned nor will ever own a 1911 design. Its not a hate thing it just gets to be I don't like the way they fit my hand. I have fired the Colt, the Colt Delta Elite 10, the Desert Eagle 50 and 45, they are all execelent weapons but they don't fit and I really (with so many models on the market get tired of picking up a gun magazi8ne and seeing a picture of the latest 1911 custom?????????
So there you have another dislike.
With two simple mods, you can make a significant improvement to the Glock trigger that should only run you around $25 to $30. A quality 3.5 connector (I like the Glock one, part #00135) and a 6 pound trigger spring (I like the one from GlockParts.com). I'm speaking about the gen3 models, BTW.
The Smith and Wesson M&P series in their standard size has one of the best feeling grips on the market. This makes the gun a natural pointer and very shooter-friendly. Glocks do take a little more getting used to but this is a relatively easy process and the return is a superb defensive arm for your daily carry and home SD gun.
Originally Posted by TedDeBearFrmHell
Thanks you guys, now I have to try and evaluate which is my true niche in life.
Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1
Would it help if I stopped having a banana for breakfast ?
And back to "the Glock". I have NOTHING against Glocks, or "Glock folks".
They are great weapons. Just not my personal cup of tea.
I don't own any 1911s either. But, Holy Crap, those 1911 "Snobs" are just plain obnoxious.
Who will be the first to start a thread to rag on those worshipers at the foot of the Shrine of John Moses Browning ?
A snob believes that some people (all weapons) are inherently inferior to him or her (1911s) for any one of a variety of reasons,
including real or supposed intellect, wealth, education, ancestry, class, taste, beauty, nationality, et cetera.
Often the form of snobbery reflects the snob's personal attributes. For example, a common snobbery of the
affluent (Browning worshipers) is the belief that wealth (ownership of 1911s) is either the cause or result of superiority, or both.
After nearly 40 years of raising purebred livestock, I learned somebody always hates something. Just go with what you like and admire. Somebody will agree!
I beg to differ with you, I was not "brand bashing" at all. What you've done friend is cherry picked one comment from my entire post, taken it out of context and twisted it into something is was not. I gave credit where credit was due, Glock's are reliable and tough weapons, but also fugley, thats my opinion YMMV, however my preference is for something other than Glock, as I do not like/care for them, this opinion is based on personal experience with that platform. I have shot several exalmples of Glock's of all generations, in all calibers, and all sizes, and haven't found one to my likeing yet. So I don't own one and until something changes with their design I probably never will own one. They're fine weapons, but just not for me. That is not brand bashing my friend, its called expressing an opinion and a matter of personal preference & I never claimed my brand was any better than anybody elses. Again expressing an OPINION and a PREFERENCE nothing more. Why should I buy something that I don't care for? I need'nt purchase or own a product that I have tried to form an opinion on said product. As a matter of fact you missed the point all together. My point was all of the "glockofiles" who disparage any thing that isn't a glock "brand bashing" or for that matter not a 1911.
Originally Posted by recoilguy
Personally I could give a rats a$$ what firearm you or anyone carries. Be it a Hipoint, Bersa, SIG, Beretta, Kimber, Colt, Glock, CZ or a Smith & Wesson. If thats what you can afford and it works for you, more power to ya, but don't look down your nose at my SIG, Ruger, or Smith & Wesson etc. because it isn't a wonderglock. I don't look down my nose at their or your choice of weapon, I admire the fact that they are carrying at all, exercising their god given rights, be it a glock or a slingshot. I could care less.
I go along with all you thoughts. One of Glock's beauties is its simplicity of design.
Originally Posted by SouthernBoy
Folks say they hate the way it feels, or grip angle, etc. I think they would be surprised that if they really tried the Glock, it just might out shoot their present favorite pistol but that would be letting the results interfere with their emotions. Sort of like the way some evaluate presidential candidates.
Last edited by judgecrater; 09-10-2012 at 05:14 PM.
That makes no sense,what is really try?I've shot a few Glocks,I don't like the feel,the sights are cheap,the trigger sucks,and it isn't a safe design.Has absolutely nothing to do with my emotions,I just don't like them,along with some other guns,plain and simple.Most of them are reliable,I won't take that away from them,but I don't think they are for a novice shooter as they were intended.Not all of the Glock discharges were NDs,some were true ADs due to the design.
Originally Posted by judgecrater
A large metropolitan city near me, just purchased 631 Glock's for use in the sheriff's dept. They got them for $235 a piece. In talking with a few sheriffs, they told me that Glocks are not their personal preference, it is what they are issued...and if they had a choice, Glock would be way down on their list of preferred firearm. In hearing this, I would imagine that many LEO's would prefer carrying something else.......so, to all who think that Glock's are the holy grail of handguns, I may suggest that they carry them because they have to, not because they want to.
I agree.I know some that do love them,and some as you said.There has also been quite a few departments getting rid of Glocks over the last few years.
I lost the document and article when my computer crashed so I'm relying on memory.
2-3 years ago a Canadian (I think) police department was getting rid of their Glocks because of problems,I believe one was the normal AD/NDs, and published it in a police newsletter or magazine.Glock got wind of it and threatened to sue them.Lo and behold 2 days later you couldn't find a mention of it anywhere,even the source I discovered it at had deleted everything pertaining to it.I've heard this isn't the first time Glock has tried to sue for slander,and is just another reason I don't think much of the company.
Here's an AD I read about,but not knowing Glock's internals I'm not sure how this happened.A Deputy was getting out of his cruiser and the butt smacked the steering wheel,somehow booting one through the floor,I don't think he took a hit but can't recall.When the armorer looked at it there was a piece of frame broke off,which was a limited problem on a batch,and jambed in there somehow.Their conclusion was that the smack torqued the grip and the way the piece was located it somehow tripped the striker.Glocks response was he pulled the trigger,only way it could go off.How can he do that in a duty holster?Like I said,I don't know Glocks inside,so I don't know if the striker is loaded enough to set off a primer at that spot or how to trip it from there.This one I'm not sure about.
I used to actually like Glocks.
I've owned a 17 and a 19 and a 26.
Until last week I'd traded all of the off for M&P's and XDm's
Glock had the world by the nose - because of cost, not quality, they swept through the law enforcement community.
I've heard numbers as high a 65% of all law enforcement carried a Glock at one time.
Now not so.
Through all of Glocks Generations .. they did not correct their short comings and stay abreast of the market place..
IMHO they got lazy
Market changes like:
decent backstrap system
decent slide serrations/grippiness.
Full ambidextrous .
Did I mention Grip angle - oh ya I did
Texturing that doesn't rip skin off (the RTF).
Stainless steel slide
Stainless Steel guide rods
Loaded chamber indicator
Cocked striker indicator
Don't have to pull trigger to take down
and many more
While I or you may not want all of these - some of them are certainly worth having.
The Glock Gen 4 came out and had few of them.
Go look at unbiased 3rd party video's from different business' about polymer guns, and you'll find lot's of negativeness on Glock vs. ???
Glock USA told Glock Austria YEARS ago (when the P99 came out, and the P2000) this should be upgraded on the Glocks as soon as they could.
Glock Austria, insisted they knew better.
After they lost enough $$$$ over the M&P, XDm and other polymer guns which had these features suddenly the Glock Perfection became Glock Perfection version 4.0.
I own a Glock, and have for a dozen years.
That doesn't mean the company always knows what it's doing.
S&W & XDm surpassed them because they gave customers more of what they wanted in a reliable package without costing $700.
That's my opinion .... might not be correct.
By the way I just bought this gun 2 weeks ago.
I've been changing sights, adding extended slide stops, working on the trigger etc. , etc.
I'm going to compete with it this weekend.
We'll see how it goes.
purchased a G17 Gen4 3 weeks ago and a used G19 love both and previously purchased, and currently own Sig Sauer P226 9mm and .40, H&K USP COMP .45, Kimber Ultra Carry .45, Colt 1911 .38 Super, Walther PPK/S, Walther P22, Taurus 44 mag. So, I have no problem extending my firing horizions!
Then, Sir, you are not paying attnetion.
Originally Posted by goNYG
I was a hater. I was convinced that criminals used GLOCK and that they were a cheap, trash gun. All this without ever having shot one or handled one, mind you. So, when my primary competition gun broke atrigger bar and had to go back to the factory, I needed another gun that I wouldn't get attached to. "Pick one you know you'll hate, then when Bessie gets back you can sell it and not feel bad" I said to myself. I bought a GLOCK 22. I took it to the range the first time, and Holy Shinola was it sweet. accurate, soft shooting, fast follow ups, decent mag drops--the whole package. I switched and made it my primary compeition/carry gun. Fan boy? Yeah, maybe, if your talking about a fan of peformance.
I don't get why people put stickers on their vehicle advertising guns,might as well invite them home to rob you.
It's not hate. It's indifference. I find Glocks about as interesting as a $12 Wal-mart coffee pot. To me they are an appliance for shooting, and not that interesting an appliance at that. That's not saying that they aren't good at their intended purpose. Reliable, practical? Sure. So is that $12 coffee pot.
To each their own.
That's a perfect analogy.
Originally Posted by Overkill0084
I have nothing against glocks, xd's or any polymer gun for that matter. I respect glocks for what they are and what they are capable of doing. That being said I simply don't like striker fired guns and I don't like the grip angle on glocks. I tend to prefer hammer fired guns with an all metal body
When Glock first hit the market years ago they changed the way people looked at handguns. From the materials used in the frame to the trigger it went against everything that everyone knew in regards to firearms.
Yep in the beginning there were ND's in many departments however upon researching the incidents they found there was absolutely nothing wrong with the guns but it came down to a training issue. The following was taken from the book Glock: The Rise of America's Gun. (Paraphrased)
It comes down to you simply have to know what you are doing. The Glock is a great gun but it is not as forgiving as other types. There is no safety to disengage, no hammer to look at to see if it is cocked it is a fighting pistol, point and shoot and may not be for everyone or anyone who does not want to train with it.
The Washington D.C Metro P.D. switched to the Glock in 1989 and was supported by officers and their FOP.
Almost immediately they began to shoot themselves and each other. In the decade after adopting the pistol there were more than 120 accidental discharges which resulted in 19 serious officer injuries. Police mistakenly wounded nine DC citizens and killed one. This resulted in city government paying out millions in damages however they did not blame the guns. After investigating the incidents they found it related back to three factors.
The department, responding to turnover and rising crime, hired 1500 new officers in just 18 months. It then failed to train many of the rookies. In many cases the rookies only received three days range time instead of the normal ten. They simply rushed them through to meet the numbers they needed. The final factor is that they issued the easy to fire Glock in the hands of every one of the untrained officers without further thought.
The pistol is an excellent first gun as it is simple and light, but without the training to go with it a new shooter is probably more likely to make a dangerous mistake with it as compared to other firearms.
When I am home I ride my Harley's. I cannot tell you how many times I have been out somewhere and am approached by them and have them say "Yeah I have been riding dirt bikes, scooters, midsize bikes or whatever" and then state they are going to get of have bought an 850 pound touring bike but don't understand why they have trouble with riding slowly. You simply can't hop on that size of bike and expect to be able to handle it without knowing what you are doing.
Everyone must remember the gun is a tool and you are the craftsman that makes it work. A particular quote comes to mind from Col. Cooper "Just because you own a guitar does not make you a musician". I have been carrying a gun professionally in one way shape or form for over 30 years and in the last six years I have been carrying a variety of firearms in the war zones of the world where I am employed so I am basing my next comment on that experience. Glocks work when other weapons won't.
Many people like the looks of a gun and that is why they bought it. The Glock is not a thing of beauty unless you are looking at it from a purely fighting aspect then it is beautiful.
They are simple, direct and to the point. Insert a mag, chamber a round, holster and leave the damn thing alone until you need to shoot something. It is simple as that. There are very, very few ND/AD's due to mechanical failure of a firearm unless someone has attempted to be a home gunsmith and modify the gun from it's original version.
In regards to the post about the officer and the ND with his Glock I am not sure if this is the same one but this type of situation was also addressed in the book.
I have never heard of a Glock discharging while in the holster so if anyone has a link to something I would appreciate it.
In November 1990 and officer with the Port Huron MI. PD was in his patrol car when her removed the gun from its holster. (Goes back to leave the damn thing alone until you are ready to use it but anyway...) as he did so the gun discharged shooting him in the foot. The following year he sued the gunmaker alleging the unusual "trigger safety" was inherently dangerous.
There is another reason some do not like the Glock. For years people became frustrated with the fact there was simply nothing you could do to them. Can't change grip panels, the trigger was fine for the job intended and except for changing out the sights, which I agree stock Glock sights, the adjustable ones anyway, suck and need to be changed there was not a lot you could do. Only in the last couple of years have people began Duracoating, stippling grips, cutting frames and so on but by nature we want to change things to fit our personal taste. Keep in mind though I said personal it has nothing to do with function.
The majority of SF troopers I am attached to carry a Glock 19. It is light, good ammo capacity, shoots well and most of all it will function when they need it to. There are well made 1911's here but they are not carried. They can be finicky and don't carry a lot of ammo for there size. Other guns such as the Ruger, Bersa, CZ's and so on while fine for concealed carry and the amount of shooting most folks do they simply do not hold up to the type of abuse that handguns are subjected to.
For those that state they prefer the M&P's, XD's or other polymer framed striker fired pistols. Where do you think they came from? One of the first attempts by S&W to enter the polymer market was the original Sigma's. It turned into an absolute marketing disaster. If you had one that worked great cherish it as most did not. They were sold to officers at rock bottom prices simply to get into the market. Thankfully changes came about and I guess they are decent guns nowadays but I have not shot them in years. I own several M&P's and they also are great guns but they are all the same basic concept that Glock brought to the market years ago with simply things added to them.
Finally comments have been made that well I can get this cheaper and it has this or that and agencies go with the lowest bidder and so on. Many don't realize but Glock has two major divisions. Law Enforcement and Commercial. Commercial prices for a Glock are $550 to $650 range. LE prices for a standard gun have not changed in years, $398.20. Anyone who is a LE Officer, EMT, Fireman, Military (Active or Retired), National Guard or can show that they can meet the criteria of being a first responder can purchase at these prices from LE distributors. No other company can or will match that.
I currently carry a Glock 19 with an Olive Drab frame with an M-3 light attached. It is the exact same setup that I have a home and train with, the only difference being the gun that I have here is not stippled. Again I look at a firearm as a tool not a piece of art and main criteria being that it works every single time when I need it and none of them have ever let me down.
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