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  1. #1
    IntegraGSR is offline Junior Member
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    First malfunction with the 17 today

    I hit the range after work, and on one mag it didn't go into battery. I drop the mag, and notice all the ammo is loose inside... I shake it upside down to empty it, and after about 10 rounds fall out, I felt it spring and act normal with the last few rounds left in it. So I guess the follower stuck near the bottom. I took it apart when I got home, and couldn't find anything wrong. I guess I'll mark that one and see if it acts up again.

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  3. #2
    Baldy's Avatar
    Baldy is offline Senior Member
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    A very small burr can hang the spring or follower. If there is one a little light sanding will knock it off. Good luck.

  4. #3
    Ram Rod's Avatar
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    How new or old is that magazine? I had bought a used G22 mag here a while back and tested it at the range. It didn't work very well, and upon disassembling, found what looked to be a short spring or a G23 spring in a G22 mag. Time to replace spring and follower.

  5. #4
    Spartan's Avatar
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    My G19 had a stovepipe last weekend.

    When I originally bought my G31, brand new in box, the mags weren't locking the slide on the last shot, and even weren't loading the next round a few times. Took it back to where I bought it and they put stiffer mag springs in... same problem. They still weren't working. Took it back again and they gave me two new G22 mags. So far so good with those, but I rarely shoot the thing because of the cost of 357sig ammo so who knows really.

    Odd enough, for all the praises Glock gets for being so reliable and built to survive anything, of my seven pistols bigger than 22, the only two I have EVER experienced any sort of malfunctions/ failures with are my two Glocks. Berettas - flawless; HK - flawless; Steyr - flawless; XD - flawless. All of those mentioned have 1k rounds or more.

    Oh well, I ain't bitchin'. I still love my Glocks and would take them anywhere.

  6. #5
    wiseguy's Avatar
    wiseguy is offline Member
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    Had similar issues with my Glock 20 mags....They lock the slide back when there's one round left in the chamber. I was told this could be because I keep my magazines loaded all the time and it wears the spring down but I feel this is unlikely...input?

  7. #6
    Baldy's Avatar
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    You may wish to get some new mags and here's a place. I bought a couple of extra's here and they ship fast.
    http://www.ombexpress.com/product~sku~GA078.asp

  8. #7
    BeefyBeefo's Avatar
    BeefyBeefo is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiseguy View Post
    Had similar issues with my Glock 20 mags....They lock the slide back when there's one round left in the chamber. I was told this could be because I keep my magazines loaded all the time and it wears the spring down but I feel this is unlikely...input?
    Springs wear out from the act of compression and decompression. Simply leaving them loaded does not wear out the spring.

    -Jeff-

  9. #8
    Mike Barham's Avatar
    Mike Barham is offline Senior Member
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    BeefyBeefo is on the money with the mag springs.

    Magazines are expendable items. They wear out and need periodic replacement.
    Employed by Galco Gunleather - www.galcogunleather.com / Veteran OEF VIII

    Donate to the Christian and Stephanie Nielson Recovery fund: http://www.nierecovery.com/.

    All opinions, particularly those involving politics and Glocks, are mine and not Galco's.

  10. #9
    IntegraGSR is offline Junior Member
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    I've bought several mags from OMBExpress, I've got a total of 7 including the two that came with the gun. I bought the gun less than 2 months ago, so that's how old the 2 oldest mags are... The gun's got about 1600 rds. through it so far. If it happens again, I'll replace the spring/follower.

  11. #10
    1911 driver is offline Banned
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    malfunctions

    The vast majority of "stovepipe" malfunctions can be traced to poor grip techniques. Glocks of all models are suseptible to this type of operational problem. A simple change in grip...say to a more aggressive style of grip will greatly eliminate the incidence of it occurring regularly.

  12. #11
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911 driver View Post
    The vast majority of "stovepipe" malfunctions can be traced to poor grip techniques.
    Which is nothing like the malfunction he described.
    Employed by Galco Gunleather - www.galcogunleather.com / Veteran OEF VIII

    Donate to the Christian and Stephanie Nielson Recovery fund: http://www.nierecovery.com/.

    All opinions, particularly those involving politics and Glocks, are mine and not Galco's.

  13. #12
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    What's so great about Glock mags, is that if one malfunctions you can always buy more. They're very affordable. I have 12 mags and growing.

  14. #13
    Old Padawan's Avatar
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    I had a Glock mag that had split after being left in the car for a couple of days while loaded (it wasn’t in the gun). AZ heat is extreme. I sent it to Glock, a new one showed up a week later.
    "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

  15. #14
    submoa is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    My G19 had a stovepipe last weekend.
    Was the case vertical (true stovepipe) or was mouth of the casing firmly wedged against the barrel hood (NYPD Phase 3)?


  16. #15
    zhurdan's Avatar
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    @ Submoa

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the picture you posted would be an extractor problem right? Either by low power load not fully cycling the weapon, extreme limpwristing, or overpowered mainspring.

    In the photo, it appears that the case never struck the ejector or it wouldn't be straight with the breach face. I've seen stovepipes happen when someone doesn't have a firm grip and the slide actually captures the case as the gun apexes during recoil, but this one here just looks odd.

    (I also realize you might be trying to diagnose by showing this picture, but I've never actually seen this condition, only heard about it.)

    Zhur

  17. #16
    Spartan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    Was the case vertical (true stovepipe) or was mouth of the casing firmly wedged against the barrel hood (NYPD Phase 3)?

    It wasn't positioned like your example. The spent casing was perpendicular to the slide, sticking out 'sideways' with the open portion facing the right of the gun... like the [sh*tty cell phone] picture:



    I am going to give the gun the benefit of the doubt and hope it was just an out of spec, too light loaded round. It was, UMC after all. I've put 700 rounds through it since mid-May and this is the only problem.

  18. #17
    submoa is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by zhurdan View Post
    @ Submoa

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the picture you posted would be an extractor problem right? Either by low power load not fully cycling the weapon, extreme limpwristing, or overpowered mainspring.

    In the photo, it appears that the case never struck the ejector or it wouldn't be straight with the breach face. I've seen stovepipes happen when someone doesn't have a firm grip and the slide actually captures the case as the gun apexes during recoil, but this one here just looks odd.

    (I also realize you might be trying to diagnose by showing this picture, but I've never actually seen this condition, only heard about it.)

    Zhur
    Actually, the picture is of a Phase Three malfunction that has been plaguing NYPD glocks for years. This initially showed up on G19s and has been subsquently observed on all models of Glocks in use by NYPD.

    "Our studies have shown this to be a rare occurrence," said police spokesman Chief Michael Collins. "In the worst-case scenario... we estimated that this has happened only once in 450,000 times when fired."

    A 1:450k chance of getting a Phase 3 might seem rare, but if you consider how much ammo you shoot each month (hundreds?) and the number of Glocks sold (millions?), its worth learning about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean L. McMahon, Lieutenant, NYPD, Retired
    "Phase Three Malfunction? Never heard of it!"

    So begins the typical conversation about an annoying gremlin that has been irritating the New York City Police Department Firearms and Tactics Section (FTS) and Glock, Inc. for approximately six years. When NYPD began experiencing a specific type of malfunction, apparently endemic to the Glock Model 19 service weapon, sometime in 1996, the FTS coined the term "Phase Three" to identify this particular non-reducible stoppage, described as basically a jam where a fired casing is partially extracted, the case rim still solidly lodged under the extractor with the mouth of the casing firmly wedged against the barrel hood. The casing is not vertical in position as in a stovepipe malfunction, but rather horizontal, exactly on the same plane as would be a cartridge loaded in the chamber but higher.

    This type of malfunction is non-reducible by currently trained methods. The tap, rack, roll or tap, rack, bang or lock, rip, rack, etc. is not a feasible course of corrective action because the slide is locked up tight in the position of holding the partially extracted casing. The example I actually handled was so badly locked up that it resisted a hammer and screwdriver. Pat Rogers, (retired NYPD and Gunsite Rangemaster) has advised that the ones he encountered at Gunsite were reducible using a pen or like device as a prying instrument.

    This is not the type of situation one would like to face during a defensive encounter. Similar malfunctions have also occurred with other law enforcement agencies, and at least one non-DOD government agency (using M882 Ball ammo), but by far the most occurrences are seen within the NYPD. This is understandable when you consider that there are over 25,000 Glock Models 19 in the hands of NYPD MOS. No other agency deploys this particular weapon in such large numbers on a daily basis.

    When this issue first arose circa 1996 the NYPD was utilizing a standard pressure 115 grain FMJ round produced specifically for the department by Winchester. It was designated a non-standard load by Winchester, and identified as the "Q4146" round. Since this was not a very hot load it was postulated that the ammo was the cause of this malfunction. Unfortunately, when the NYPD transitioned in 1999 to a "hot" 124 grain +P Speer GDHP that was specifically "souped up" to around 1225 FPS, the occurrences of Phase Three's diminished, but did not altogether disappear. It should be noted that during this time frame none of the other department-approved 9mm semi-automatic pistols in use experienced a single Phase Three malfunction.

    As this malfunction became more of an issue, the Department naturally approached Glock, Inc. and requested assistance. At the onset, Glock refused to acknowledge the problem and only reluctantly agreed to replace one-for-one the guns that displayed the problem. NYPD felt that this did not address the issue properly. I personally know one officer, one of the most senior members assigned to the Emergency Services Unit, who had two different Model 19 pistols Phase Three on him three times on two consecutive days. This MOS is a great shooter and knows how to operate in a hostile environment. He gave up and purchased an S&W Model 59461 from the approved list. While NYPD itself was attempting to downplay the issue with MOS by asserting that the Phase Three malfunction had only occurred at the department range during practice and qualification sessions, they were, unfortunately, being less than truthful. As a Sergeant in a confidential investigative unit in mid-1997 I personally delivered to the range a Model 19 that had locked up tight after a Detective got off one round in a street confrontation. Fortunately the perps fled after that first shot and my guy was uninjured. In 1998 as a Lieutenant I worked with a police officer whose Model 19 did the same thing in a running gunfight. Fortunately for him he was with other MOS whose guns did not malfunction, and the bad guy was turned into a colander.

    Clearly this issue was getting out of hand and both the NYPD hierarchy and Glock management realized it.

    Glock finally stood up and took notice when the NYPD contacted Sturm Ruger and requested pricing and delivery times for that company to replace every Glock Model 19 currently in use by the department with one of the Ruger P-series 9 X 19mm pistols. In response, Glock began taking a look at the extractor and the geometry of the surfaces of the slide and barrel hood in the area of the ejection port. As a result of this situation Glock began to make an earnest effort to correct the problem by making modifications to the design of the Model 19.

    In July 2001 I was attending the Summer Qualification Cycle at the outdoor range. During the initial brief before the day's shooting began it was announced that every shooter would be putting 100 rounds through some "experimental" Glocks which the Department was testing. The stated goal was to put at least one million rounds through them in order to fully evaluate the design. Each shooter was issued an "experimental" Glock Model 19 and three magazines with the orange base plates. A brief visual examination prior to shooting disclosed it to be a rather standard looking third generation Model 19 with the finger grooves and rail. The only noticeable design difference was the extractor. It had a square protrusion of extra metal on the leading edge closest to the chamber. My initial impression was that it was designed as a loaded chamber indicator. During shooting, however, the "experimental" Model 19 proved to be problematic. All shooters were asked to advise the line officers of any and all problems with the weapons. I began shooting slowly to check out the action and immediately noticed a strange "stutter" as the gun cycled. Upon holding the trigger fully rearward after each shot I found that in 60% of the shots fired the slide would stay about 1/16 of an inch out of battery until the trigger was released and allowed to cycle forward. At that time the slide would go into full battery. I called over the nearest range officer and directed him to observe the rear of the slide of the weapon as I fired. He picked up on it immediately without my having to explain the problem to him, commenting: "The slide is staying back until you release the trigger." He stayed behind me for the rest of that box of ammo and observed the functioning of the weapon. During a break to reload magazines he noted the serial number of the pistol on the rear of the score sheet along with a description of the event. For the second box of ammo I shot rapid-fire exclusively to see if the function of the weapon was affected. I had two failures to go into battery; the first was about ¼-inch out of battery and was reduced by a support-hand smack to the rear of the slide. The second, about two magazines later was a full failure to chamber with the nose of the next round buried in the feed ramp. A sharp tap to the base plate of the magazine reduced it. In both cases shooting resumed after corrective action was taken with no further difficulty. Not too impressive a performance for the "experimental" Glock. When speaking with the range officer I asked if this was Glock's answer to the Phase Three problem and he answered in the affirmative and described the new extractor as also serving as a chamber loaded indicator. Although these were not Phase Three malfunctions that I was experiencing that day, my opinion of the "experimental" Model 19 was not at all favorable.

    Slowly, the Phase Three issue has begun cropping up in areas previously unsullied. Pat Rogers has reported multiple Models 19 experiencing "Phase Threes" on the line at Gunsite over a three-day period. He relates that a change of ammo corrected the problem for the shooters he was instructing in that group. However, another class shooting the same lot of ammo at the same time had none of their Models 19 burp even once. Why did one group of 19s choke when the others didn't? Pat himself owned a Model 19 that suffered Phase Three stoppages so consistently that he had no choice but to get rid of it. Internet discussion groups have revealed other police and privately owned Models 19 with the same problems. It is now mid-2002 and the issue is still not resolved. Glock has had many meetings with the staff of the NYPD FTS and has indeed put effort into a solution. My understanding is that Glock is in the process of attempting a long term solution to this problem but that as of this writing it has yet to be implemented.2

    Let me be clear on one thing: I am not bashing the Glock Model 19. I have one that has been utterly reliable for me through literally tens of thousands of rounds since 1992. The Model 19 is a good weapon and if I had to stop carrying my 1911 tomorrow I would not feel uncomfortable using that particular weapon as a carry gun. My issue Model 19 performed well on the streets of NY City for ten years of service. It is my personal belief that if you own a Model 19 that has not experienced a Phase Three with extensive use you are probably good to go. What I am saying is that there is an issue regarding the reliability of some specimens of this model and it must be fully addressed before someone pays the bill on it with their life.

  19. #18
    zhurdan's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info.

    Zhur

  20. #19
    R.J.Adams is offline Junior Member
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    I guess nothing is absolutely reliable.

  21. #20
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    Limp wristing can also be a cause for the malfunctions too.

  22. #21
    1911 driver is offline Banned
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    malfunctions

    Mike,
    Brilliant...my comments were not directed solely at the original post..!!

  23. #22
    Zaakir*Abdullah's Avatar
    Zaakir*Abdullah is offline Junior Member
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    I dont think the P3 malfunctions are an issue with newer G19s.
    Can the P3 malfunctions be cleared with s simple tap rack bang?

  24. #23
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    First of all, my 24/7 OSS NEVER STOVEPIPES, whether I'm shooting limp wristed, holding it upside down, weak hand shooting, etc. Looks like you should start looking a better gun, one that won't stovepipe on you when a home intruder breaks in your house.
    Here's a post from another forum complaining about glock stovepipes.
    http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=882123

    Oh, one more thing..... stop believing the hype and stockpiling ammo. It only causes higher prices for us and higher profits for the ammo and gun manufacturers. Take a deep breath, relax, and stop buying all the ammo. Things will work out.
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