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  1. #1
    Wandering Man's Avatar
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    Glock no longer the King?

    A friend just got his CHL, and is now looking for something to carry. He and his wife own a Glock in 9mm that is a couple of years old (more than 5, I think).

    One of the big city (Corpus Christi) gun stores told him that Glock is not the most reliable gun out there.

    Since when did THAT happen?

    I'm wondering what brand the gun store was pushing this month ...

    ... hmmmm, maybe they wanted him to buy a 1911?



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  3. #2
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    The Glock is reliable, but I don't think it's any more reliable than a SIG, HK, Beretta, or one of the other heavily-tested designs. All are amply reliable for defense...unlike some 1911s.
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  4. #3
    Wandering Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    ...unlike some 1911s.
    ...............


    WM
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  5. #4
    submoa is offline Member
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    You'll see a lot of defensive comments on this forum when someone's favorite gun is criticized. FWIW... the credibility of the criticism and defense is proportional to the facts introduced in support. The rest is ego/whining. You'll see a lot of the latter and "well, gun X isn't that good either" unsupported opinions to come.

    Glocks are often praised simply because Glock's aggressive marketing has made their brand the most issued handgun in law enforcement. And at that point most consumers look no further. But here's a sampling of the experience LE has had with Glock:

    Glock quietly replaced 700 guns issued to the FBI due to a frame rail defect that could cause the handgun to break when used. No recall to consumers.

    Glock recalled a limited serial number range of 26 and 27s due to defective guide rods. In 2003 NYPD banned departmental use of all E serial range 27s including those outside the recall group.

    NYPD Firearms and Tactics Section has been working with Glock to resolve "Phase Three" stoppages ongoing on all model Glocks since deployed this includes 9mm models. No resolution has been announced.

    Portland PD replaced all G21 with G17s and G19s when kB!s (catastrophic explosive failure of a handgun) were traced to the unsupported chamber design.

    Glock kB!s have been traced to 3 design "features"

    Disconnector that allows Glocks to fire out of battery
    Unsupported chamber
    Thin/weak chamber walls (.40 and .357 use a bored out 9mm barrel, removal of material makes thinner chamber walls)



    In the picture above you will see that .40 chamber has been bored out to the point where walls are half as thick as 9mm and there is NO chamber support at the ramp.

    Glock's response to all kB!s has been to advise owners not to use overpressure ammunition (ie. +P).

    On the other hand you might never encounter a failure with your Glock. Just be an informed consumer and look behind the endorsements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham
    All are amply reliable for defense...unlike some 1911s.
    Please indicate which 1911 models are unreliable and why. Not all 1911s are born equal. This is as meaningful as stating, "some Browning tilting barrel handguns are not suitable for defense."

  6. #5
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    Please indicate which 1911 models are unreliable. This is as meaningful as stating, "some Browning tilting barrel handguns are not suitable for defense."
    And the Glock vendetta continues.

    Would you like me to indicate the 1911s I've fired that malfunctioned? The ones I've seen malfunction in multiple upper-level shooting courses? The ones that malfunctioned in matches? The ones owned by close friends that malfunctioned and had to go back to the factory multiple times for repair and finally replacement?

    I have personally seen malfunctions from every major manufacturer of 1911s, with the exception of S&W. (To be clear, I am not talking about semi-custom, low production makers like Baer or Wilson.) My previous position at Galco also gave me the opportunity to talk to literally thousands of shooters. I talked to shooters who had reliability issues with virtually every brand of 1911. Some were able to solve the problems. Others sold their guns.

    The 1911 is an excellent ergonomic design, and the easiest popular pistol to shoot fast and accurately. But it is not, on the whole, as reliable as modern designs like Glock, SIG, Beretta, HK, etc. The great 1911 ergos, weighed against the lesser reliability, may be a good trade for some people. I'm not one of them.
    Employed by Galco Gunleather - www.galcogunleather.com / Veteran OEF VIII

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  7. #6
    submoa is offline Member
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    Post diagnosis as to reason for the 1911 failures you allege to have seen to educate us. I've already posted elsewhere on this forum re 1911: Avoid FPBs and MIM parts. The rest is proper maintenance and use of factory fresh ammo.

    The only factory 1911 I can recommend with this criteria under $1,000 is Dan Wesson. Otherwise start with a non-Series 80, non Swarz platform and replace MIM where possible. Springfields are a good start.

    I can't fathom why Glock fans hate 1911. The two really aren't even in the same market. We all know which gun Jeff Cooper preferred.

    As a Glock alternative, SA XD has fully supported chamber and uses billet internals. Granted, the grip safety is bullsh^t, but at least it is passive.

  8. #7
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    I've shot the holy living hell outta my Glock 32C .357Sig with narry a problem, and no fear that it'll blow up on me. The reason I say this is simple. Once you start fearing something, it owns you and it should most definately not be the case with a defensive firearm. That's not to say that there shouldn't be a healthy dose of respect for said firearm, but if you are afraid that it'll blow up in your hand, get rid of it. If you are afraid that it'll fail to fire at a crucial time, get rid of it. If you are scared that you cannot shoot it well with your current skill set, shoot more but don't carry it until you are satisfied you can shoot it well.

    I respect the fact that some Glocks have K'd, but running a few numbers thru my head reassures me that I'd probably win the lottery prior to my Glock Kb-ing. (knocks on wood hehe).

    As to 1911's, I think it's a mixed bag. I've shot other peoples 1911's and couldn't get them to run a whole mag without a problem. I've also shot my two Kimbers so much that I pretty much count on them more than any others, unless I need something a bit less pokey (printing) for concealed carry, then I go with the Glock or the Kahr based on what I'm wearing.

    I will say this about the venerable 1911, they are maintenance hogs. If they aren't relatively clean, aka lint, dust, powder residue, they will begin to fail. That being said, my 1911's are clean enough to eat off of and remain that way because of diligent inspection and cleaning. I don't mind the regimen of cleaning or the ratio of shooting to maintenance as I like the smell of Hoppes and my wife likes it too, so I just clean my guns, and put a dab of Hoppes behind each ear and carry her off to the... uh.. nevermind... anyways, you get the point. Maintain your weapon to it's needs and it will serve you well, maintain them to your wants and it'll be your worst nightmare. Unless of course your a freak like me and want to clean your guns.

    Zhur

  9. #8
    hideit's Avatar
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    you guys are making me reconsider the beretta 92fs

  10. #9
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    Post diagnosis as to reason for the 1911 failures you allege to have seen to educate us.
    All over the map. Here are a few:

    - Rough feed ramps (Springfield, Colt, other manufacturers).
    - Rough breechfaces (Springfield, Colt, other manufacturers).
    - Extractors broken or out of adjustment (virtually all manufacturers).
    - Broken sear (Colt).
    - Shredded firing pin spring (Colt).
    - Lousy OEM magazines (virtually all manufacturers).
    - Broken bushing (Colt).
    - Worn slide stops (multiple manufacturers).
    - Multiple failures to go into battery (Kimber, went back to factory twice, finally replaced by Kimber with another 1911 that also didn't work.)

    I am not sure I'd give the money they're asking for a Dan Wesson, since most of them (Pointman Minor, Pointman Major) are at least partially cast, rather than forged. And, yes, I am aware of the new - and very limited production - Valor.

    I do agree that 1911s are better without firing pin safeties, though.
    Employed by Galco Gunleather - www.galcogunleather.com / Veteran OEF VIII

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  11. #10
    submoa is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    I am not sure I'd give the money they're asking for a Dan Wesson, since most of them (Pointman Minor, Pointman Major) are at least partially cast, rather than forged. And, yes, I am aware of the new - and very limited production - Valor.
    What guns have forged frames and no MIM under $1,000?

    I'll agree with you that forged frames are better than cast. If I had to compromise to meet a price threshold, a cast frame is less likely to fail than a MIM slide stop. Then again, please explain how a cast frame, in general, is less acceptable than plastic?

    Street price for Pointman 7 (cast frame, forged slide & barrel, no MIM or FPB) is under $1,000. Above $1,000 there are many choices from different manufacturers...

  12. #11
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    It's not really a practical exception. I just hate forking over good money for a (admittedly largely theoretically) weaker product. But since most people won't ever shoot enough for it to matter, I suppose it doesn't. Agreed that the cast frame is probably better than a ton of MIM.

    Polymer frames are exceedingly durable. Glocks routinely go in excess of 100,000 round without enough frame wear to affect function. 1911s with high round counts often suffer cracked frames, usually at the slide stop cut.
    Employed by Galco Gunleather - www.galcogunleather.com / Veteran OEF VIII

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  13. #12
    submoa is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Glocks routinely go in excess of 100,000 round without enough frame wear to affect function.
    Is this a belief of yours or was this an independent test? What ammo? What maintenance was performed (springs? mags?)? And was this just ONE glock went 100k rounds?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    1911s with high round counts often suffer cracked frames, usually at the slide stop cut.
    Can you specify which brands have these cracked frames? And if any of these cracks actually affected operation?

    Up to the end of WWII, all 1911s had forged frames. Caspian frames are cast and I've yet to hear of one of their frames cracking.

    1911s are high maintenance weapons. Do not expect to own one without adhering to a strict maintenance schedule. But a properly maintained, quality (no FPB or MIM) 1911 is without peer. Just ask Jeff Cooper... after your Glock kB!

    The following maintenance schedule is quoted directly from the Wilson Combat 1911 Auto Maintenance Manual by Bill Wilson.

    Clean and Lube, Routine:

    Lead bullet use every 300-500 rounds
    Jacketed bullet use every 500-700 rounds
    Carry pistols once a month

    Clean and Lube, Thorough:

    Every 5,000 rounds and/or every 3 months your pistol should be completely disassembled, cleaned and lubricated.

    Spring Replacement:

    Recoil spring every 2,000 rounds
    Firing pin spring every 5,000 rounds
    Hammer spring every 25,000 rounds

    Parts Replacement:

    Firing pin stop: when cracked
    Slide stop: when broken
    Extractor: when hook edges become worn or fails to maintain tension

  14. #13
    Concealed45_1911's Avatar
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    My HK USP .40 Cracked at the safety after about 5000 rounds or less HK replaced the frame and charged me only for shipping.

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    As a Glock alternative, SA XD has fully supported chamber and uses billet internals. Granted, the grip safety is bullsh^t, but at least it is passive.
    Why is the grip safety bullshit?

  16. #15
    submoa is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mosquito View Post
    Why is the grip safety bullshit?
    First all safety devices are inferior to the one between your ears.

    Secondly, one word: revolver. Why do we load up semi autos with safeties and require none for revolvers? Is anyone under the illusion that revolvers are inherently safer?

    Third, the grip safety is redundant with the split trigger.

    Fourth, most NDs occur holstering/drawing... in both cases the grip is grasped.

    Fifth, each safety device on a gun must be properly maintained otherwise you will suffer the social embarassment of a nofire when you need your gun to work. Yet another thing to go wrong.

    I'd still take an XD over a Glock for the full chamber support and billet internals.

  17. #16
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    During a recent training course I saw three guns malfunction, two of them multiple times. The two that malfunctioned repeatedly were both Kimbers. My Glock 19 ran perfect, as it always does. I could use this experience to go on the net to every board and bash the living daylights out of Kimbers and every other 1911 like it while praising the perfection of the Glock 19. I don't because I know that Kimber makes a good weapon and my experience with their failures is very limited. However, Glock haters do this very thing all the time. I cannot count how many times I've read second and third person accounts of a Glock failure that somebody heard about and then jumps on the net to prove the Glock is a ticking timebomb.

    If you don't like Glocks, DON'T BUY ONE! Just because you don't like em doesn't make them junk. I personally find the 1911 design to be impractical for SD so I don't carry one, but that doesn't mean they are junk. Lots of guys, more knowledgable than I, love them. Like it or not, 1911 pistols are much more finicky about things like ammo and maintenance than the modern designs of Glock, Sig, HK, XD etc. So buy what suits you and that you are comfortable with and allow others the same courtesy. BTW, as much as I love my Glock I carry a Kahr most of the time.

  18. #17
    Wandering Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    The Glock is reliable, but I don't think it's any more reliable than a SIG, HK, Beretta, or one of the other heavily-tested designs. All are amply reliable for defense...unlike some 1911s.
    So, back to the original question ...



    ... without beating up on 1911 owners or Glock owners.



    Is there a new "king" for reliability?

    It seems to me that pretty much any modern gun by a major manufacturer runs pretty flawlessly, unless it happens to be one of the few lemons that any factory produces from time to time.


    WM
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  19. #18
    submoa is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering Man View Post
    Is there a new "king" for reliability?
    No, and yes.

    Bottom line, the flawlessly reliable gun DOES NOT EXIST. You can buy guns that come close and you can spend exponentially more with each incremental improvement. The starting place is using a little common sense and avoiding obvious features that can cause trouble (MIM parts, poor fit, bad disconnectors, weak and unsupported chambers).

    If you want a flawless gun, buy pretty much any name brand gun you can shoot well, break it in with 500 rounds of ball ammo, have a gunsmith detail strip and clean, use it for 2,000 flawless rounds, then sell it.

    All guns evenutally require cleaning, lubrication, maintenance, and replacement of worn parts. Yes, you even have to replace glock recoil and mag springs regularly. If you want reliability as an average shooter, adhere to a rigourous maintenance schedule and don't keep the gun more than a handful of years.

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    Gun store liars. The gun salesguy just pretty much insulted their intelligence, being Glock owners themselves.

    I always tell people to try it themselves, rather than hear others' "opinions".

  21. #20
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    The german guns like Heckler Koch, walther, etc are much more reliable then the american "1911" and other cowboy guns. Even the american forces have bowed down and are using HK

  22. #21
    submoa is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by JONSCH View Post
    The german guns like Heckler Koch, walther, etc are much more reliable then the american "1911" and other cowboy guns. Even the american forces have bowed down and are using HK
    Firstly, the primary infantry hand held weapon is, and has always been a battle rifle.

    US forces are issued either M9 (Beretta) or M11 (SIG). This is not because they are 'superior' to 1911A1 but because the politicians negotiated NATO standardization on 9mm ammo (we got the Euros to use 5.56). The Joint Combat Pistol competition died stillborn in 2006, resulting in the recent flood of high cap poly .45s on the market (HK45, Taurus OSS, M&P 45, FNP45), none selected for military use.

    The only US mil issue HK pistol is the HK Mk.23 (aka SOCOM). It is a total POS. It is an overweight and oversized locker queen lusted after only by wannabes. The original accessories it was designed for in the 20th century are obsolete now. Don't blame HK, they delivered on the specs that were asked for.

    1st SFOD-D aka Delta have always used 1911s customized by their own armorers. Larry Vickers (former Delta) has gone on to be an icon in custom 1911 circles.

    Marine Force Recon uses PISTOL, M1911A1, MEU(SOC) .45CAL built by Marine MOS 2122 gunsmiths from Springfield, Caspian, and selected vintage GI frames at Marine Corps' Precision Weapons Shop (PWS) in Quantico, Virginia.

    Marine Corps Special Operations Command Detachment One (MCSOCOM Detachment One or Det 1) uses Kimber Interim Close Quarters Battle pistol (ICQB) with Surefire IMPL (Integrated Military Pistol Light), Dawson Precision Rails, Tritium Novak LoMount sights, Gemtech TRL Tactical Retention Lanyards, modified Safariland 6004 holsters, and Wilson Combat '47D' 8 round magazines. PWS was backlogged and could not produce sufficient 1911A1 MEU(SOC) in time for unit activation in 2003.

  23. #22
    djnevoc is offline Junior Member
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    Wow!

    Lotta great edu-ma-cation on this thread thanks for the info!

  24. #23
    DJ Niner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hideit View Post
    you guys are making me reconsider the beretta 92fs
    You don't have to do that; the Beretta is a fine weapon. I oversaw the handgun conversion to the M9s at two different Air Force bases in the late 80s/early 90s, and personally fired one magazine through every M9 that came in at the first base. At the end of 2+ years when I left, we had never had a stoppage with a Beretta that was not shooter-induced, and had no broken weapons/parts, even on the training range guns that had 4000+ rounds each through them.

    The M9s got a black eye for reliability in the desert because of lowest-bidder replacement magazines and poor preventive maintenance, but I'd trust one under slightly less extreme conditions without thinking twice about it. I owned two 92s of my own (92FS and 92 Compact) for 5 years and had no problems at all with them.

    It's just that the Glock nines are easier to shoot quickly and well, are more compact for comparable capacity, they weigh less, bounce and flip less, are easier to clean and service, and are darn near rustproof.

  25. #24
    DJ Niner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering Man View Post
    A friend just got his CHL, and is now looking for something to carry. He and his wife own a Glock in 9mm that is a couple of years old (more than 5, I think).

    One of the big city (Corpus Christi) gun stores told him that Glock is not the most reliable gun out there.

    Since when did THAT happen?

    I'm wondering what brand the gun store was pushing this month ...

    ... hmmmm, maybe they wanted him to buy a 1911?



    WM
    I'm not sure how you can get "more reliable" than 100%, which is the rate two of my Glock 9mms have achieved (and over more than 5 years time and several thousand rounds, too!). Some handguns I've seen will equal that rate; in my experience, the SIG DA/SA 9mms (P226, P228), the Beretta M9/92FS, the HK P7/PSP (no ultra-lightweight bullets), the Ruger P89 9mm and P90 .45 all qualify as 100% reliable. Other folks may have had different experiences, but mine have been universally positive with these guns (and not just ones I have personally owned; include MANY other examples I've competed against in various combat-style competitions, or even observed during informal target shooting at the range). Properly maintained (or even not, sometimes), these guns simply WORK -- RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX.

    I can think of NO non-custom, factory-made 1911s made in the last 15 years -- Colts, clones, or copies -- that I would put in the same category. None. Now, go back to the mid-70s, maybe early 80s; then I owned a few Colts that were 100% with everything I could feed them. But in the last 20 or so years, it seems like many manufacturers cheaped-out on parts/fitting whenever they thought they could get away with it, and quality/reliability has suffered. The vast majority of the problems I've seen were magazine-related problems; in fact, the last few 1911s I bought (Kimber, Colt, and for a short time, a high-end Springfield) all needed replacement mags before I could even start to diagnose their other problems.
    Last edited by DJ Niner; 07-11-2008 at 02:55 AM.

  26. #25
    DJ Niner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    ...

    Glocks are often praised simply because Glock's aggressive marketing has made their brand the most issued handgun in law enforcement.

    ...
    And sometimes they are praised because they are great guns, with solid advantages that practical folks can appreciate. I shot my first Glock in 1990; bought my first in 1991. Back then, I had been shooting some local combat-type pistol matches, and a guy that I had been beating quite regularly in these competitions suddenly started beating ME. I noticed that he had switched-over to one of those new-fangled Glocks, and was telling everyone who got close enough what a great pistol it was. He let a few of us shoot it, and not too long after that, I went in with a few other guys who were doing a group buy on refurbished G17s. I kept my hopes low so I wouldn't be disappointed, but the more I shot the darn thing, the more I liked it. And with my G17, I went back to beating that guy in the matches.

    It sat low in my hand, and had very little muzzle flip when fired. Accuracy was fine, even in the well-used refurb. Quick follow-up shots were easy and accurate. Reliability was perfect; that early Gen 1 G17 never jammed in over 3 years and 5000+ rounds of mixed ammo. I carried it in my part-time job, and the light weight was appreciated during a long day at work. It was super easy to strip and clean. I became so enamored of the design that I sold all my other centerfire pistols, bought a few more 9mm Glocks of varying sizes, and converted my centerfire auto collection to "all Glocks, all the time" for more than 5 years.

    Eventually, I did allow myself to dabble in other centerfire autos again, but only for fun-guns; for serious purposes, a Glock got (and still gets) the nod. I tried the .40 and .45 Glocks when they were released, and came away less than impressed with the .40 cartridge, and the size of the .45 grip; I stay, to this day, with my trusty nines.

    For those who approach it with an open mind, they will find many advantages in the Glock guns and system. For those who approach it with a closed mind, or a predetermined outcome in mind, they will rarely find something they like. No, it doesn't have the same grip angle as a 1911. No, the trigger is not as crisp as a bullseye gun. No, it's not very pretty (unless you find beauty in function, as I do). It is a utilitarian tool, and for those who take the time to learn to use the tool as it was made, for its intended purpose, they will be pleasantly surprised and well armed.
    Last edited by DJ Niner; 07-11-2008 at 04:55 AM.

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