Lotta great edu-ma-cation on this thread thanks for the info!
US forces are issued either M9 (Beretta) or M11 (SIG). This is not because they are 'superior' to 1911A1 but because the politicians negotiated NATO standardization on 9mm ammo (we got the Euros to use 5.56). The Joint Combat Pistol competition died stillborn in 2006, resulting in the recent flood of high cap poly .45s on the market (HK45, Taurus OSS, M&P 45, FNP45), none selected for military use.
The only US mil issue HK pistol is the HK Mk.23 (aka SOCOM). It is a total POS. It is an overweight and oversized locker queen lusted after only by wannabes. The original accessories it was designed for in the 20th century are obsolete now. Don't blame HK, they delivered on the specs that were asked for.
1st SFOD-D aka Delta have always used 1911s customized by their own armorers. Larry Vickers (former Delta) has gone on to be an icon in custom 1911 circles.
Marine Force Recon uses PISTOL, M1911A1, MEU(SOC) .45CAL built by Marine MOS 2122 gunsmiths from Springfield, Caspian, and selected vintage GI frames at Marine Corps' Precision Weapons Shop (PWS) in Quantico, Virginia.
Marine Corps Special Operations Command Detachment One (MCSOCOM Detachment One or Det 1) uses Kimber Interim Close Quarters Battle pistol (ICQB) with Surefire IMPL (Integrated Military Pistol Light), Dawson Precision Rails, Tritium Novak LoMount sights, Gemtech TRL Tactical Retention Lanyards, modified Safariland 6004 holsters, and Wilson Combat '47D' 8 round magazines. PWS was backlogged and could not produce sufficient 1911A1 MEU(SOC) in time for unit activation in 2003.
Lotta great edu-ma-cation on this thread thanks for the info!
The M9s got a black eye for reliability in the desert because of lowest-bidder replacement magazines and poor preventive maintenance, but I'd trust one under slightly less extreme conditions without thinking twice about it. I owned two 92s of my own (92FS and 92 Compact) for 5 years and had no problems at all with them.
It's just that the Glock nines are easier to shoot quickly and well, are more compact for comparable capacity, they weigh less, bounce and flip less, are easier to clean and service, and are darn near rustproof.
I can think of NO non-custom, factory-made 1911s made in the last 15 years -- Colts, clones, or copies -- that I would put in the same category. None. Now, go back to the mid-70s, maybe early 80s; then I owned a few Colts that were 100% with everything I could feed them. But in the last 20 or so years, it seems like many manufacturers cheaped-out on parts/fitting whenever they thought they could get away with it, and quality/reliability has suffered. The vast majority of the problems I've seen were magazine-related problems; in fact, the last few 1911s I bought (Kimber, Colt, and for a short time, a high-end Springfield) all needed replacement mags before I could even start to diagnose their other problems.
Last edited by DJ Niner; 07-11-2008 at 03:55 AM.
It sat low in my hand, and had very little muzzle flip when fired. Accuracy was fine, even in the well-used refurb. Quick follow-up shots were easy and accurate. Reliability was perfect; that early Gen 1 G17 never jammed in over 3 years and 5000+ rounds of mixed ammo. I carried it in my part-time job, and the light weight was appreciated during a long day at work. It was super easy to strip and clean. I became so enamored of the design that I sold all my other centerfire pistols, bought a few more 9mm Glocks of varying sizes, and converted my centerfire auto collection to "all Glocks, all the time" for more than 5 years.
Eventually, I did allow myself to dabble in other centerfire autos again, but only for fun-guns; for serious purposes, a Glock got (and still gets) the nod. I tried the .40 and .45 Glocks when they were released, and came away less than impressed with the .40 cartridge, and the size of the .45 grip; I stay, to this day, with my trusty nines.
For those who approach it with an open mind, they will find many advantages in the Glock guns and system. For those who approach it with a closed mind, or a predetermined outcome in mind, they will rarely find something they like. No, it doesn't have the same grip angle as a 1911. No, the trigger is not as crisp as a bullseye gun. No, it's not very pretty (unless you find beauty in function, as I do). It is a utilitarian tool, and for those who take the time to learn to use the tool as it was made, for its intended purpose, they will be pleasantly surprised and well armed.
Last edited by DJ Niner; 07-11-2008 at 05:55 AM.
Great posting!Originally Posted by DJ Niner
Copied from me, from another thread:
My G19 had a stovepipe last weekend.
When I originally bought my G31, brand new in box, the mags weren't locking the slide on the last shot, and even weren't loading the next round a few times. Took it back to where I bought it and they put stiffer mag springs in... same problem. They still weren't working. Took it back again and they gave me two new G22 mags. So far so good with those, but I rarely shoot the thing because of the cost of 357sig ammo so who knows really.
Odd enough, for all the praises Glock gets for being so reliable and built to survive anything, of my seven pistols bigger than 22, the only two I have EVER experienced any sort of malfunctions/ failures with are my two Glocks. Berettas - flawless; HK - flawless; Steyr - flawless; XD - flawless. All of those mentioned have 1k rounds or more.
Oh well, I ain't bitchin'. I still love my Glocks and would take them anywhere.
they are a good gun, like anything else you have to practice.
That's a ridiculous notion.Glock no longer the King?
Ok, lets make a montain out of a mole hill.
Know your weapon and practice.I have Glock 19 and 1911 Springfield compact 45 and XDc 45 in D.E. All are good guns but if I could only Have one;GLOCK19.........
If you notice nearly every KB that has been reported in the last few years has been associated with the .40caliber round. True Glock has an unsupported chamber. The only reason I'm even considering purchasing a new one over another XD is because Springfield won't sell replacement parts such as extractors springs etc... has to be shipped back at $50.00 bucks a time and with the anti's looking to gain more ground I want spare parts. I'd go the 1911 route but I have never had one that wouldn't jam at least several times a session no matter hor cleaned & lubed they were.
DIY instructions avail at http://www.xd-hs2000.com
Glock fully supported barrels are available aftermarket from
When the Portland PD called and asked some questions, HP White responded in another letter, which summarized their questions and provided an answer to each, including this one:
"4. Does the design of the barrel, in particular the amount of unsupported case, contribute to case failures in the unsupported area? -- Any self-loading pistol needs a feed ramp to get the cartridges smoothly from the magazine into the chamber. For all conventional pistols the feed ramp results in some portion of the case being unsupported. The longer the feed ramp, the greater the unsupported area. The Glock 21 probably has a somewhat longer feed ramp that other caliber .45 pistols, but that did not contrubute to your incident."
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/ppb.html (bottom of page)
Last edited by DJ Niner; 07-14-2008 at 01:57 AM.
From the same webpage you quote from, PPD had excluded ammunition as cause prior to the HP White tests. As the ammo lots used in the kB! were normal Federal loads:
Without introducing facts not in evidence, there are 3 conclusions available:Originally Posted by GunZone
- Federal's manufacturing variances of High-Shok ammunition is sloppy to the point where excessive propellant can be loaded in a few rounds of a single production lot. No other complaints for this ammo can be found for other guns on a Google search.
- Glock G21 chambers do not provide sufficient support for standard ammo pressures. PPD's conclusion, resulting in switch to G17 and G19.
- Federal High-Shok ammunition should not be used in Glock G21s. In which case, Glock should responsibly be providing all customers a list of ammo incompatible with their products.
If Federal ammo is to blame for PPD's experience, then there should be some sort of Glock/Federal controversy on the scale of the Ford/Firestone argument with Explorers. The fact that no such argument exists suggests Glock already knows the answer.
The "fact" that the PD inspected the remaining rounds and found nothing wrong tells us nothing about the round that blew-up the gun(s). In my experience, almost ALL factory ammo defects are one-offs; it's VERY rare to find more than one defect of ANY type in the same box, or even full case, of factory ammo. Nevertheless, I've managed to collect some samples of defective factory rounds over the years, so it DOES happen.
Federal redesigned their .40 casings in the late 90s, as they had received many reports of blown case heads without any evidence of excessive pressure (unlike the Portland PD guns/ammo). The "New! Improved!" thicker .40 caliber brass was a virtual admission that their product was inferior to others in the same caliber. Most any long-term reloader will tell you that in many instances, Federal brass is thinner and/or softer than other, similar products from other companies.
If you reviewed the report, you must have seen the details on the fired casing's expanded primer pocket. There are darn few things that can make a primer pocket expand to that extent, and a supposedly "unsupported chamber" ain't one of them. The lab also noted that a double-charged test round produced almost exactly the same expansion of the primer pocket that was observed in the round that blew-up the gun.
Last edited by DJ Niner; 07-15-2008 at 03:48 AM.
Florin Pirv, the PPD officer injured in the second kB! filed suit against Glock in Oregon Federal District Court February, 2006. http://dockets.justia.com/docket/cou...case_id-77017/
The City of Portland also filed suit against Glock in Oregon Federal District Court March, 2006. http://dockets.justia.com/docket/cou...case_id-77394/
These cases are still pending. Doubtless HP White will be used in Glocks defense. Doubtless Priv and Portland's attorneys know this. Meanwhile, no one's talking with a suit pending and Portland Police Bureau does NOT use G21.
The gun store owner was trying to sell them that new gold plated slide with the diamond studded mag release that is guaranteed to put down the BGs with one shot. PFFFT! My Glock 26 (9mm), 27 (.40 S&W), 36 (.45 auto), and 39 (.45 G.A.P.) have performed flawlessly. I plan to soon add a G23 (.40 S&W) very soon. Does this answer the question as to how well I trust Glock pistols?
America isn't going to win or lose a war based on the pistol that they are carrying. I think what Submoa was getting at is that if confronted with a fight, the single best weapon to return fire with is their rifle, not a pistol, regardless of caliber or make.
The other problem with firearms used in the military is that it has little to do with what people want on the ground or how much we think they should have a brand new wizz bang pistol. The types of pistols and their unwillingness to change to another pistol have much more to do with contract negotiations and supply line issues. If they seriously tried to undertake the deployment of a new pistol to all troops while at war, it'd be one hell of an undertaking. It's not like you or I running down to the local gun shop and buying a different gun because we are tired of the last one.