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  1. #21
    submoa is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by JONSCH View Post
    The german guns like Heckler Koch, walther, etc are much more reliable then the american "1911" and other cowboy guns. Even the american forces have bowed down and are using HK
    Firstly, the primary infantry hand held weapon is, and has always been a battle rifle.

    US forces are issued either M9 (Beretta) or M11 (SIG). This is not because they are 'superior' to 1911A1 but because the politicians negotiated NATO standardization on 9mm ammo (we got the Euros to use 5.56). The Joint Combat Pistol competition died stillborn in 2006, resulting in the recent flood of high cap poly .45s on the market (HK45, Taurus OSS, M&P 45, FNP45), none selected for military use.

    The only US mil issue HK pistol is the HK Mk.23 (aka SOCOM). It is a total POS. It is an overweight and oversized locker queen lusted after only by wannabes. The original accessories it was designed for in the 20th century are obsolete now. Don't blame HK, they delivered on the specs that were asked for.

    1st SFOD-D aka Delta have always used 1911s customized by their own armorers. Larry Vickers (former Delta) has gone on to be an icon in custom 1911 circles.

    Marine Force Recon uses PISTOL, M1911A1, MEU(SOC) .45CAL built by Marine MOS 2122 gunsmiths from Springfield, Caspian, and selected vintage GI frames at Marine Corps' Precision Weapons Shop (PWS) in Quantico, Virginia.

    Marine Corps Special Operations Command Detachment One (MCSOCOM Detachment One or Det 1) uses Kimber Interim Close Quarters Battle pistol (ICQB) with Surefire IMPL (Integrated Military Pistol Light), Dawson Precision Rails, Tritium Novak LoMount sights, Gemtech TRL Tactical Retention Lanyards, modified Safariland 6004 holsters, and Wilson Combat '47D' 8 round magazines. PWS was backlogged and could not produce sufficient 1911A1 MEU(SOC) in time for unit activation in 2003.

  2. #22
    djnevoc is offline Junior Member
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    Wow!

    Lotta great edu-ma-cation on this thread thanks for the info!

  3. #23
    DJ Niner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hideit View Post
    you guys are making me reconsider the beretta 92fs
    You don't have to do that; the Beretta is a fine weapon. I oversaw the handgun conversion to the M9s at two different Air Force bases in the late 80s/early 90s, and personally fired one magazine through every M9 that came in at the first base. At the end of 2+ years when I left, we had never had a stoppage with a Beretta that was not shooter-induced, and had no broken weapons/parts, even on the training range guns that had 4000+ rounds each through them.

    The M9s got a black eye for reliability in the desert because of lowest-bidder replacement magazines and poor preventive maintenance, but I'd trust one under slightly less extreme conditions without thinking twice about it. I owned two 92s of my own (92FS and 92 Compact) for 5 years and had no problems at all with them.

    It's just that the Glock nines are easier to shoot quickly and well, are more compact for comparable capacity, they weigh less, bounce and flip less, are easier to clean and service, and are darn near rustproof.

  4. #24
    DJ Niner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering Man View Post
    A friend just got his CHL, and is now looking for something to carry. He and his wife own a Glock in 9mm that is a couple of years old (more than 5, I think).

    One of the big city (Corpus Christi) gun stores told him that Glock is not the most reliable gun out there.

    Since when did THAT happen?

    I'm wondering what brand the gun store was pushing this month ...

    ... hmmmm, maybe they wanted him to buy a 1911?



    WM
    I'm not sure how you can get "more reliable" than 100%, which is the rate two of my Glock 9mms have achieved (and over more than 5 years time and several thousand rounds, too!). Some handguns I've seen will equal that rate; in my experience, the SIG DA/SA 9mms (P226, P228), the Beretta M9/92FS, the HK P7/PSP (no ultra-lightweight bullets), the Ruger P89 9mm and P90 .45 all qualify as 100% reliable. Other folks may have had different experiences, but mine have been universally positive with these guns (and not just ones I have personally owned; include MANY other examples I've competed against in various combat-style competitions, or even observed during informal target shooting at the range). Properly maintained (or even not, sometimes), these guns simply WORK -- RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX.

    I can think of NO non-custom, factory-made 1911s made in the last 15 years -- Colts, clones, or copies -- that I would put in the same category. None. Now, go back to the mid-70s, maybe early 80s; then I owned a few Colts that were 100% with everything I could feed them. But in the last 20 or so years, it seems like many manufacturers cheaped-out on parts/fitting whenever they thought they could get away with it, and quality/reliability has suffered. The vast majority of the problems I've seen were magazine-related problems; in fact, the last few 1911s I bought (Kimber, Colt, and for a short time, a high-end Springfield) all needed replacement mags before I could even start to diagnose their other problems.
    Last edited by DJ Niner; 07-11-2008 at 03:55 AM.

  5. #25
    DJ Niner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    ...

    Glocks are often praised simply because Glock's aggressive marketing has made their brand the most issued handgun in law enforcement.

    ...
    And sometimes they are praised because they are great guns, with solid advantages that practical folks can appreciate. I shot my first Glock in 1990; bought my first in 1991. Back then, I had been shooting some local combat-type pistol matches, and a guy that I had been beating quite regularly in these competitions suddenly started beating ME. I noticed that he had switched-over to one of those new-fangled Glocks, and was telling everyone who got close enough what a great pistol it was. He let a few of us shoot it, and not too long after that, I went in with a few other guys who were doing a group buy on refurbished G17s. I kept my hopes low so I wouldn't be disappointed, but the more I shot the darn thing, the more I liked it. And with my G17, I went back to beating that guy in the matches.

    It sat low in my hand, and had very little muzzle flip when fired. Accuracy was fine, even in the well-used refurb. Quick follow-up shots were easy and accurate. Reliability was perfect; that early Gen 1 G17 never jammed in over 3 years and 5000+ rounds of mixed ammo. I carried it in my part-time job, and the light weight was appreciated during a long day at work. It was super easy to strip and clean. I became so enamored of the design that I sold all my other centerfire pistols, bought a few more 9mm Glocks of varying sizes, and converted my centerfire auto collection to "all Glocks, all the time" for more than 5 years.

    Eventually, I did allow myself to dabble in other centerfire autos again, but only for fun-guns; for serious purposes, a Glock got (and still gets) the nod. I tried the .40 and .45 Glocks when they were released, and came away less than impressed with the .40 cartridge, and the size of the .45 grip; I stay, to this day, with my trusty nines.

    For those who approach it with an open mind, they will find many advantages in the Glock guns and system. For those who approach it with a closed mind, or a predetermined outcome in mind, they will rarely find something they like. No, it doesn't have the same grip angle as a 1911. No, the trigger is not as crisp as a bullseye gun. No, it's not very pretty (unless you find beauty in function, as I do). It is a utilitarian tool, and for those who take the time to learn to use the tool as it was made, for its intended purpose, they will be pleasantly surprised and well armed.
    Last edited by DJ Niner; 07-11-2008 at 05:55 AM.

  6. #26
    Ptarmigan is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Niner
    And sometimes they are praised because they are great guns, with solid advantages that practical folks can appreciate. I shot my first Glock in 1990; bought my first in 1991. Back then, I had been shooting some local combat-type pistol matches, and a guy that I had been beating quite regularly in these competitions suddenly started beating ME. I noticed that he had switched-over to one of those new-fangled Glocks, and was telling everyone who got close enough what a great pistol it was. He let a few of us shoot it, and not too long after that, I went in with a few other guys who were doing a group buy on refurbished G17s. I kept my hopes low so I wouldn't be disappointed, but the more I shot the darn thing, the more I liked it. And with my G17, I went back to beating that guy in the matches.

    It sat low in my hand, and had very little muzzle flip when fired. Accuracy was fine, even in the well-used refurb. Quick follow-up shots were easy and accurate. Reliability was perfect; that early Gen 1 G17 never jammed in over 3 years and 5000+ rounds of mixed ammo. I carried it in my part-time job, and the light weight was appreciated during a long day at work. It was super easy to strip and clean. I became so enamored of the design that I sold all my other centerfire pistols, bought a few more 9mm Glocks of varying sizes, and converted my centerfire auto collection to "all Glocks, all the time" for more than 5 years.

    Eventually, I did allow myself to dabble in other centerfire autos again, but only for fun-guns; for serious purposes, a Glock got (and still gets) the nod. I tried the .40 and .45 Glocks when they were released, and came away less than impressed with the .40 cartridge, and the size of the .45 grip; I stay, to this day, with my trusty nines.

    For those who approach it with an open mind, they will find many advantages in the Glock guns and system. For those who approach it with a closed mind, or a predetermined outcome in mind, they will rarely find something they like. No, it doesn't have the same grip angle as a 1911. No, the trigger is not as crisp as a bullseye gun. No, it's not very pretty (unless you find beauty in function, as I do). It is a utilitarian tool, and for those who take the time to learn to use the tool as it was made, for its intended purpose, they will be pleasantly surprised and well armed.
    Great posting!

  7. #27
    Spartan's Avatar
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    Copied from me, from another thread:

    My G19 had a stovepipe last weekend.

    When I originally bought my G31, brand new in box, the mags weren't locking the slide on the last shot, and even weren't loading the next round a few times. Took it back to where I bought it and they put stiffer mag springs in... same problem. They still weren't working. Took it back again and they gave me two new G22 mags. So far so good with those, but I rarely shoot the thing because of the cost of 357sig ammo so who knows really.

    Odd enough, for all the praises Glock gets for being so reliable and built to survive anything, of my seven pistols bigger than 22, the only two I have EVER experienced any sort of malfunctions/ failures with are my two Glocks. Berettas - flawless; HK - flawless; Steyr - flawless; XD - flawless. All of those mentioned have 1k rounds or more.

    Oh well, I ain't bitchin'. I still love my Glocks and would take them anywhere.

  8. #28
    Night Gunner's Avatar
    Night Gunner is offline Junior Member
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    Glocks

    they are a good gun, like anything else you have to practice.

  9. #29
    Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Glock no longer the King?
    That's a ridiculous notion.

  10. #30
    DogRanger's Avatar
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    Ok, lets make a montain out of a mole hill.
    Know your weapon and practice.I have Glock 19 and 1911 Springfield compact 45 and XDc 45 in D.E. All are good guns but if I could only Have one;GLOCK19.........

  11. #31
    Magicmanmb's Avatar
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    If you notice nearly every KB that has been reported in the last few years has been associated with the .40caliber round. True Glock has an unsupported chamber. The only reason I'm even considering purchasing a new one over another XD is because Springfield won't sell replacement parts such as extractors springs etc... has to be shipped back at $50.00 bucks a time and with the anti's looking to gain more ground I want spare parts. I'd go the 1911 route but I have never had one that wouldn't jam at least several times a session no matter hor cleaned & lubed they were.

  12. #32
    submoa is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magicmanmb View Post
    If you notice nearly every KB that has been reported in the last few years has been associated with the .40caliber round.
    .45 ACP G21 kB!s experienced by Portland Police Bureau was diagnosed to unsupported chamber and resulted in replacement with G17 and G19. You can see bulging from lack of chamber support in expended cases fired from G21 below.



    Quote Originally Posted by Magicmanmb View Post
    The only reason I'm even considering purchasing a new one over another XD is because Springfield won't sell replacement parts such as extractors springs etc... has to be shipped back at $50.00 bucks a time and with the anti's looking to gain more ground I want spare parts.
    XD (same as HS-2000) parts available at

    http://www.shop.xd-hs2000.com/main.sc
    http://www.gunnersupply.com/category.sc?categoryId=4
    http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe...560***10405***
    http://www.pistolgear.com/products.php?id=8
    http://tjofsugarland.blogspot.com/20...armory-xd.html

    DIY instructions avail at http://www.xd-hs2000.com

    Glock fully supported barrels are available aftermarket from
    Briley Manufacturing
    Jarvis Precision
    Wilson Combat

  13. #33
    DJ Niner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    .45 ACP G21 kB!s experienced by Portland Police Bureau was diagnosed to unsupported chamber and resulted in replacement with G17 and G19.
    There are some .PDFs of various letters/reports made by HP White labs (where Portland sent the destroyed guns for analysis) floating around the web. If these did originate with HP White, and can be believed, then you should know one of them (referring to the fisrt tested pistol) states "Clearly, the cause of the damage to the pistol was firing a cartridge that produced catastrophically high pressure." Also included was "There can be no question that the pistol submitted (Serial Number EDN811US) was damaged by firing a single cartridge that produced extremely high pressures -- well beyond any industry standards. There is no evidence of a specific defect or malfunction in the pistol."

    When the Portland PD called and asked some questions, HP White responded in another letter, which summarized their questions and provided an answer to each, including this one:
    "4. Does the design of the barrel, in particular the amount of unsupported case, contribute to case failures in the unsupported area? -- Any self-loading pistol needs a feed ramp to get the cartridges smoothly from the magazine into the chamber. For all conventional pistols the feed ramp results in some portion of the case being unsupported. The longer the feed ramp, the greater the unsupported area. The Glock 21 probably has a somewhat longer feed ramp that other caliber .45 pistols, but that did not contrubute to your incident."

    http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/ppb.html (bottom of page)

    http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/9419-01a.pdf

    http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/9419-02a.pdf
    Last edited by DJ Niner; 07-14-2008 at 01:57 AM.

  14. #34
    submoa is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Niner View Post
    If these did originate with HP White, and can be believed, then you should know one of them (referring to the fisrt tested pistol) states "Clearly, the cause of the damage to the pistol was firing a cartridge that produced catastrophically high pressure."
    HP White does not specify what the 'catastrophically high pressure' was. The only conclusion that can be drawn from this alarming phrase is that the ammo pressure was higher than the threshold that would cause a catastrophy. HP White also fails to indicate what pressure this threshold would be at. For all we know, the ammo could have been within maximum SAAMI specs.

    From the same webpage you quote from, PPD had excluded ammunition as cause prior to the HP White tests. As the ammo lots used in the kB! were normal Federal loads:

    Quote Originally Posted by GunZone
    According to PPB's Sergeant Mike Lee in a 31 March 2004 telephone interview, their con*clusion that the Glock Models 21 were the cause of the catastrophic failures as opposed to the ammunition, came as a result of intensive examination of the Federal High-Shok rounds from the two different lots involved. This included, but was not limited to, deconstruction of numerous cartridges from each lot, careful weighing of the propellant charges, and measurements of the brass, with particular attention to the thickness of the caseweb areas.

    Sergeant Lee further advises that PPB had already excluded the ammunition as the "likely suspect" well before TGZ's Glock pages had been brought to the department's attention. He also stated that Portland Police Bureau was attempting to set up a joint meeting with Glock and Federal to discuss and perhaps resolve the matter.
    Without introducing facts not in evidence, there are 3 conclusions available:

    1. Federal's manufacturing variances of High-Shok ammunition is sloppy to the point where excessive propellant can be loaded in a few rounds of a single production lot. No other complaints for this ammo can be found for other guns on a Google search.
    2. Glock G21 chambers do not provide sufficient support for standard ammo pressures. PPD's conclusion, resulting in switch to G17 and G19.
    3. Federal High-Shok ammunition should not be used in Glock G21s. In which case, Glock should responsibly be providing all customers a list of ammo incompatible with their products.


    If Federal ammo is to blame for PPD's experience, then there should be some sort of Glock/Federal controversy on the scale of the Ford/Firestone argument with Explorers. The fact that no such argument exists suggests Glock already knows the answer.

  15. #35
    DJ Niner's Avatar
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    The "fact" that the PD inspected the remaining rounds and found nothing wrong tells us nothing about the round that blew-up the gun(s). In my experience, almost ALL factory ammo defects are one-offs; it's VERY rare to find more than one defect of ANY type in the same box, or even full case, of factory ammo. Nevertheless, I've managed to collect some samples of defective factory rounds over the years, so it DOES happen.

    Federal redesigned their .40 casings in the late 90s, as they had received many reports of blown case heads without any evidence of excessive pressure (unlike the Portland PD guns/ammo). The "New! Improved!" thicker .40 caliber brass was a virtual admission that their product was inferior to others in the same caliber. Most any long-term reloader will tell you that in many instances, Federal brass is thinner and/or softer than other, similar products from other companies.

    If you reviewed the report, you must have seen the details on the fired casing's expanded primer pocket. There are darn few things that can make a primer pocket expand to that extent, and a supposedly "unsupported chamber" ain't one of them. The lab also noted that a double-charged test round produced almost exactly the same expansion of the primer pocket that was observed in the round that blew-up the gun.
    Last edited by DJ Niner; 07-15-2008 at 03:48 AM.

  16. #36
    submoa is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Niner View Post
    Most any long-term reloader will tell you that in many instances, Federal brass is thinner and/or softer than other, similar products from other companies.
    It states in the Glock owners manual NOT to use reloaded ammo. You are supposed to use ONLY commercial ammo.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Niner View Post
    If you reviewed the report...
    The HP White report was issued in 2004.

    Florin Pirv, the PPD officer injured in the second kB! filed suit against Glock in Oregon Federal District Court February, 2006. http://dockets.justia.com/docket/cou...case_id-77017/

    The City of Portland also filed suit against Glock in Oregon Federal District Court March, 2006. http://dockets.justia.com/docket/cou...case_id-77394/

    These cases are still pending. Doubtless HP White will be used in Glocks defense. Doubtless Priv and Portland's attorneys know this. Meanwhile, no one's talking with a suit pending and Portland Police Bureau does NOT use G21.

  17. #37
    AdamSean's Avatar
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    The gun store owner was trying to sell them that new gold plated slide with the diamond studded mag release that is guaranteed to put down the BGs with one shot. PFFFT! My Glock 26 (9mm), 27 (.40 S&W), 36 (.45 auto), and 39 (.45 G.A.P.) have performed flawlessly. I plan to soon add a G23 (.40 S&W) very soon. Does this answer the question as to how well I trust Glock pistols?

  18. #38
    JONSCH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    Firstly, the primary infantry hand held weapon is, and has always been a battle rifle.

    US forces are issued either M9 (Beretta) or M11 (SIG). This is not because they are 'superior' to 1911A1 but because the politicians negotiated NATO standardization on 9mm ammo (we got the Euros to use 5.56). The Joint Combat Pistol competition died stillborn in 2006, resulting in the recent flood of high cap poly .45s on the market (HK45, Taurus OSS, M&P 45, FNP45), none selected for military use.

    The only US mil issue HK pistol is the HK Mk.23 (aka SOCOM). It is a total POS. It is an overweight and oversized locker queen lusted after only by wannabes. The original accessories it was designed for in the 20th century are obsolete now. Don't blame HK, they delivered on the specs that were asked for.

    1st SFOD-D aka Delta have always used 1911s customized by their own armorers. Larry Vickers (former Delta) has gone on to be an icon in custom 1911 circles.

    Marine Force Recon uses PISTOL, M1911A1, MEU(SOC) .45CAL built by Marine MOS 2122 gunsmiths from Springfield, Caspian, and selected vintage GI frames at Marine Corps' Precision Weapons Shop (PWS) in Quantico, Virginia.

    Marine Corps Special Operations Command Detachment One (MCSOCOM Detachment One or Det 1) uses Kimber Interim Close Quarters Battle pistol (ICQB) with Surefire IMPL (Integrated Military Pistol Light), Dawson Precision Rails, Tritium Novak LoMount sights, Gemtech TRL Tactical Retention Lanyards, modified Safariland 6004 holsters, and Wilson Combat '47D' 8 round magazines. PWS was backlogged and could not produce sufficient 1911A1 MEU(SOC) in time for unit activation in 2003.

    I guess this is why america is losing the war in Iraq. You are the kind of guy that says people who drive Mercedes are the wannabees and people in Chevrolet are the real deal, aren't you?

  19. #39
    zhurdan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JONSCH View Post
    I guess this is why america is losing the war in Iraq. You are the kind of guy that says people who drive Mercedes are the wannabees and people in Chevrolet are the real deal, aren't you?
    Wow, where did you see that in his post?

    America isn't going to win or lose a war based on the pistol that they are carrying. I think what Submoa was getting at is that if confronted with a fight, the single best weapon to return fire with is their rifle, not a pistol, regardless of caliber or make.

    The other problem with firearms used in the military is that it has little to do with what people want on the ground or how much we think they should have a brand new wizz bang pistol. The types of pistols and their unwillingness to change to another pistol have much more to do with contract negotiations and supply line issues. If they seriously tried to undertake the deployment of a new pistol to all troops while at war, it'd be one hell of an undertaking. It's not like you or I running down to the local gun shop and buying a different gun because we are tired of the last one.

    Zhur

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    The Glock is reliable, but I don't think it's any more reliable than a SIG, HK, Beretta, or one of the other heavily-tested designs.
    Amen, after dealing with the fanboys on GlockTalk for the last few months, its refreshing to see someone actually post that.

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