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  1. #21
    Ram Rod's Avatar
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    I was talking about the Pam Anderson thing.

  2. #22
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    Not as good as a fully supported chamber, but hardly the deathtrap implied by Glock bashers, either. The fact that literally hundreds of thousands of .40 Glocks have been in highly successful service for well over a decade would seem to me to easily override the very miniscule chance of a ka-Boom.

    It's not as if Glocks are the only guns that ever blow up. You just hear about them more because there are so many more Glocks in use than virtually anything else. And there are reasons Glocks are so popular, whether or not they are your personal preference.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    It's not as if Glocks are the only guns that ever blow up. You just hear about them more because there are so many more Glocks in use than virtually anything else. And there are reasons Glocks are so popular, whether or not they are your personal preference.
    I had a friend blow up a S&W 4006 with store bought rounds. I have seen several S&W revolvers that were blown up. Perhaps we should avoid buying any S&W? Would this include the M&P, 1911, Or P99?

    Are you aware that the 1911 has had a unsupported chamber since its inception in 1905? Shall we quit purchasing them?
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  4. #24
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    Here's a link to one guys take on why some guns blow up.

    http://www.policeandsecuritynews.com...GunsBlowUp.htm

  5. #25
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    Very happy with mine:


    The only con is that people may not like Glocks in general. This is a great carry gun, accurate and big bore tube.

    The .40S&W recoil in a 4" barrel will pop up. But for me, it's more for close combat...even though I've shot it accurately at 25 yards.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham
    Not as good as a fully supported chamber
    An unsupported chamber has a gap around the case, that in higher pressure loads can allow the case to swell, weakening the case's strength.

    The .40cal glock barrel is essentially a bored out 9mm. This removal of material gives a .40 half the chamber wall thickness of a 9mm. Thinner chamber walls = weaker chamber. You can see the lack of support and the thinner walls below.



    Glock's response to all the kB! issues is that they were caused by overpressure (+P) rounds. The Glock manual states to use standard factory ammo. Keep that in mind the next time you suggest/recommend +Ps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Padawan View Post
    Are you aware that the 1911 has had a unsupported chamber since its inception in 1905? Shall we quit purchasing them?
    Are you aware SAAMI sets the maximum case pressure for .45 ACP at 21,000 CUP vs 35,000 CUP for 40S&W?
    Are you also aware that the chamber wall on a 1911 is over twice as thick as in Glock's .40?

  7. #27
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    Most (though not all) of the ka-Booms I've seen documented didn't involve the barrel/chamber bursting, so I am not sure the thickness of the chamber walls is the real root of the issue. Normally, the case bursts and most of the gas shoots out through the mag well, blowing out the magazine but rarely injuring the shooter.

    I am not aware of a SAAMI spec for a +P .40, though there are some smaller companies using this designation, perhaps for marketing purposes. I think we are all aware that some handloaders routinely exceed SAAMI specs on their handloads, but any resulting ka-Booms are their fault, not the gun manufacturer's. I have never recommended +P .40 ammo.

    I do not accept that any reputable manufacturer, Glock or otherwise, would produce for our exceedingly litigious society any pistol they knew to be dangerous with correct factory ammo meeting SAAMI specs.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    Are you aware SAAMI sets the maximum case pressure for .45 ACP at 21,000 CUP vs 35,000 CUP for 40S&W?
    Are you also aware that the chamber wall on a 1911 is over twice as thick as in Glock's .40?
    Yes I am aware of the pressure differences between .45 and .40. But wasn’t your question regarding an unsupported Chamber?
    "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

  9. #29
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    jdonovannavy,
    There is nothing wrong with the .40 Glocks. Glock sells WAAAAY to many .40 cal pistols in our litigious society for this to be an issue. It makes for heated debate just like choosing the “right” round to carry for self-defense. No one that tells you to not to buy a Glock based on KaBoom is able to offer any kind of statistic to back up his or her argument.

    I have owned a Glock 22, 23, 27 in .40. I still own the 23. I purchased it from a Police trade in. It was well shot. I have put a couple of thousand rounds through the gun. It goes Bang and not KaBoom.

    I carry the gun because it works. I prefer 1911s, but I carry a glock. I own 3 1911s, but I carry a Glock. Until recently I shot three times a month expending 200 – 500 rounds per session (not all .40), I carry a Glock .40.

    This is the gun I chose. Choose the gun that suits you but don’t let people that have no factual data sway you from a quality pistol be it an HK, S&W, Colt, or even a Glock.
    "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

  10. #30
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    Are there as many/ any issues with the 357sig Glocks?

  11. #31
    submoa is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Most (though not all) of the ka-Booms I've seen documented didn't involve the barrel/chamber bursting, so I am not sure the thickness of the chamber walls is the real root of the issue.
    Documented kB!s in http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html show barrel/chamber bursts.





    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    I have never recommended +P .40 ammo.
    My comment was caution against recommending +P in unsupported chambered Glocks period. Per your comment in What Guns Do You Use For House/PD Weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Glock 26 loaded with Golden Saber +P is current primary,

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    I do not accept that any reputable manufacturer, Glock or otherwise, would produce for our exceedingly litigious society any pistol they knew to be dangerous with correct factory ammo meeting SAAMI specs.

    Glock kB!s have been documented using standard pressure .40cal factory rounds:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Hackathorn, World Class Firearms Instructor
    In various handgun courses over the years I have personally witnessed five (5!) kB!s, all with factory-new .40 S&W ammo. Yes, two were with the earlier Federal 165-grain Hydra-Shok, but I've also seen it happen with 180-grain Winchester Ranger and 155-grain Speer Gold Dot HPs
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Padawan View Post
    Yes I am aware of the pressure differences between .45 and .40. But wasn’t your question regarding an unsupported Chamber?
    Old Padawan was sarcastically suggesting that the logic against unsupported Glock chambers was flawed since 1911s have unsupported chambers.

    My point is that the 1911 is a more acceptable design than Glock .40 since since case pressure of a standard .40 round is almost double .45 ACP, yet the chamber wall in the Glock is half as thick. Glock attempts to uses a weaker chamber to contain a higher pressure round vs. the 1911.


    There are actually 3 design "features" in Glocks in calibers greater than 9mm that make them vulnerable to kB!

    Unsupported chamber
    Thin/weak chamber walls
    Disconnector that allows Glocks to fire out of battery

    I believe that no one disputes these "features" or the fact that they are less than desirable. If you are spending $100s on a tool you are staking your life on, does it make sense to do so knowing that the tool has less than desirable features that could place you at risk?

    The only remaining argument remaining against common sense is the "millions sold / few kB!" statistics. There are also statistics that say of the millions of handgun owners, very few will ever need use their weapon in self defense, so why get a gun? Bottom line, while the chance of a kB! may be low, it is non-zero and there are known reasons for Glocks to be vulnerable to kB!

    You can make the Glock less vulnerable to kB! by exclusively using standard pressure factory ammo, never using lead bullets, and replacing the barrel with a fully supported one from BarSto, Briley, Jarvis or Wilson.

    FWIW SA XD uses a fully supported barrel.

  12. #32
    Old Padawan's Avatar
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    Old Padawan was answering your question.
    Your question was quoted in full (unlike most of your quotes I m might add) it in no way mentioned Glock, I quote you “Then cut the rhetoric and just tell us. Unsupported chambers. Good or Bad?” Perhaps you should have been more specific. If you were speaking of Glocks the answer is Good, proven design.

    Shall we start a thread on blown up gun photos? Your photos while graphic do not prove a problem. What was the load? Was the barrel plugged? Was there abuse of some sort? Of this production lot was there a known problem? No one has said that the guns do not blow up. ANY GUN WILL BLOW UP under the proper circumstances.

    There are many statistics to quote re guns and violence. Weather they are interpreted by the right or left to skew the result is not relative to your point as they are statistics.

    My point to you is your complete LACK OF STATISTICS. Your argument lacks any factual basis for a preference of one gun versus another as related to a possible dramatic failure such as a kaboom.

    If the .40 cal Glocks had a problem, they would have had recalls similar to the Ruger SR9.
    "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

  13. #33
    jdonovannavy is offline Junior Member
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    thanks for all of the responses everyone. as for the kaboom discussion i have looked into it a little and im still pretty comforatable buying the 23. a company as big as glock that has these guns distributed to a wide spread amount of law enforcement (in my opinion) would have done some sort of recall if the percentage of guns that failed was high enough. thank you all for your input, and please if you have any more comments feel free to add. Thanks!

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdonovannavy View Post
    thanks for all of the responses everyone. as for the kaboom discussion i have looked into it a little and im still pretty comforatable buying the 23... Thanks!
    Great choice!!! Let us know what you think of it once you get it...don't forget the pics!!!

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Padawan View Post
    If the .40 cal Glocks had a problem, they would have had recalls similar to the Ruger SR9.
    Ruger recalled their SR9s voluntarily. This would be an honest manufacturer admitting having made a mistake and doing what they can to serve their customers. By your own method, how many SR9 ADs have been reported?

    On the other hand, the lack of recalls on .40 cal Glocks is more indicative of the arrogance that allows claims of 'perfection.'


  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    Ruger recalled their SR9s voluntarily. This would be an honest manufacturer admitting having made a mistake and doing what they can to serve their customers. By your own method, how many SR9 ADs have been reported?

    On the other hand, the lack of recalls on .40 cal Glocks is more indicative of the arrogance that allows claims of 'perfection.'

    My methods are irrelevant, as I didn’t advise not to purchase a product due to an unsubstantiated defect.
    Is your implication that Glock is dishonest? Isn’t it odd that a dishonest company selling an unsafe factory pistol has a commanding lead in the law enforcement agencies across America?

    I note the following add from the Walther website regarding the Walther P99. “The new P99 compact is the ideal compliment to the P99 full size line of pistols. Perfect for concealed carry or as a backup weapon for law enforcement.”

    I guess that body style and carry position have nothing to do with it. All you need is a P99. I assume you feel this is arrogance as well?

    Claiming to be perfection is an add slogan not arrogance.
    Last edited by Old Padawan; 07-07-2008 at 01:25 PM.
    "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdonovannavy View Post
    thanks for all of the responses everyone. as for the kaboom discussion i have looked into it a little and im still pretty comforatable buying the 23. a company as big as glock that has these guns distributed to a wide spread amount of law enforcement (in my opinion) would have done some sort of recall if the percentage of guns that failed was high enough. thank you all for your input, and please if you have any more comments feel free to add. Thanks!

    Congratulations on a good purchase decision. Glock is a fine firearm.
    "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

  18. #38
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    [IMG][/IMG]

    "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Padawan
    Is your implication that Glock is dishonest?
    Decide for yourself.

    Glock has discovered in 2004 a serious structual problem with their guns. They redesigned their rear slide rails many years ago to make them longer, but for some reason shortened them again in 1998 after failing an INS abuse test. Apparently the longer rails were prone to excessive "torque" when the pistols got hot, causing the slides to crack in that area. This shorter rail, coupled with some bad steel and a machine that stamped the rails incorrectly, causing some rear rails to break off the gun. When the rail breaks, it can lock up the gun. Not a good thing in a gunfight.

    Glock went to the FBI and told them about this problem and quietly replaced over 700 frames. They did not tell their other customers about this problem. This problem affected ALL models of Glocks and TENS OF THOUSANDS OF GUNS. What about the DC Police with 4000 guns, NYPD with 35000 guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdonovannavy
    a company as big as glock that has these guns distributed to a wide spread amount of law enforcement (in my opinion) would have done some sort of recall if the percentage of guns that failed was high enough
    Well yes, there has been one recall:

    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCK recall
    Anyone having either a Model 26 or Model 27 with a serial number utilizing the following alpha-prefix: DGD, DGV, DHS, DHT, DKV, DKW or DKX, your guide rod is defective. According to Glock, the rods were not tempered correctly. If you have one of these guns, call 1 (888) 569-6830 to get a replacement rod. This number was been set up specifically for the replacement of the rods.
    Petaluma PD (CA) was reported to have had two guide rods break at their range in late March 2000, just about the time that Glock acknowledged the seriousness of the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYPD Advisory
    Effective 20 February 2003 all Glock Model 26 pistols in the E serial range of the current "non-recall" have been banned from carry by NYPD MOS. They are instructed to cease carrying the weapon and contact the Firearms Training Section for instructions concerning replacement.
    This is not the first problem NYPD has had with Glock. The following could have been better handled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean L. McMahon, Lieutenant, NYPD, Retired
    http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/phase3.html
    "Phase Three Malfunction? Never heard of it!"
    So begins the typical conversation about an annoying gremlin that has been irritating the New York City Police Department Firearms and Tactics Section (FTS) and Glock, Inc. for approximately six years. When NYPD began experiencing a specific type of malfunction, apparently endemic to the Glock Model 19 service weapon, sometime in 1996, the FTS coined the term "Phase Three" to identify this particular non-reducible stoppage, described as basically a jam where a fired casing is partially extracted, the case rim still solidly lodged under the extractor with the mouth of the casing firmly wedged against the barrel hood. The casing is not vertical in position as in a stovepipe malfunction, but rather horizontal, exactly on the same plane as would be a cartridge loaded in the chamber but higher.

    This type of malfunction is non-reducible by currently trained methods. The tap, rack, roll or tap, rack, bang or lock, rip, rack, etc. is not a feasible course of corrective action because the slide is locked up tight in the position of holding the partially extracted casing. The example I actually handled was so badly locked up that it resisted a hammer and screwdriver. Pat Rogers, (retired NYPD and Gunsite Rangemaster) has advised that the ones he encountered at Gunsite were reducible using a pen or like device as a prying instrument.

    This is not the type of situation one would like to face during a defensive encounter. Similar malfunctions have also occurred with other law enforcement agencies, and at least one non-DOD government agency (using M882 Ball ammo), but by far the most occurrences are seen within the NYPD. This is understandable when you consider that there are over 25,000 Glock Models 19 in the hands of NYPD MOS. No other agency deploys this particular weapon in such large numbers on a daily basis.

    When this issue first arose circa 1996 the NYPD was utilizing a standard pressure 115 grain FMJ round produced specifically for the department by Winchester. It was designated a non-standard load by Winchester, and identified as the "Q4146" round. Since this was not a very hot load it was postulated that the ammo was the cause of this malfunction. Unfortunately, when the NYPD transitioned in 1999 to a "hot" 124 grain +P Speer GDHP that was specifically "souped up" to around 1225 FPS, the occurrences of Phase Three's diminished, but did not altogether disappear. It should be noted that during this time frame none of the other department-approved 9mm semi-automatic pistols in use experienced a single Phase Three malfunction.

    As this malfunction became more of an issue, the Department naturally approached Glock, Inc. and requested assistance. At the onset, Glock refused to acknowledge the problem and only reluctantly agreed to replace one-for-one the guns that displayed the problem. NYPD felt that this did not address the issue properly. I personally know one officer, one of the most senior members assigned to the Emergency Services Unit, who had two different Model 19 pistols Phase Three on him three times on two consecutive days. This MOS is a great shooter and knows how to operate in a hostile environment. He gave up and purchased an S&W Model 59461 from the approved list. While NYPD itself was attempting to downplay the issue with MOS by asserting that the Phase Three malfunction had only occurred at the department range during practice and qualification sessions, they were, unfortunately, being less than truthful. As a Sergeant in a confidential investigative unit in mid-1997 I personally delivered to the range a Model 19 that had locked up tight after a Detective got off one round in a street confrontation. Fortunately the perps fled after that first shot and my guy was uninjured. In 1998 as a Lieutenant I worked with a police officer whose Model 19 did the same thing in a running gunfight. Fortunately for him he was with other MOS whose guns did not malfunction, and the bad guy was turned into a colander.

    Clearly this issue was getting out of hand and both the NYPD hierarchy and Glock management realized it.

    Glock finally stood up and took notice when the NYPD contacted Sturm Ruger and requested pricing and delivery times for that company to replace every Glock Model 19 currently in use by the department with one of the Ruger P-series 9 X 19mm pistols. In response, Glock began taking a look at the extractor and the geometry of the surfaces of the slide and barrel hood in the area of the ejection port. As a result of this situation Glock began to make an earnest effort to correct the problem by making modifications to the design of the Model 19.

    In July 2001 I was attending the Summer Qualification Cycle at the outdoor range. During the initial brief before the day's shooting began it was announced that every shooter would be putting 100 rounds through some "experimental" Glocks which the Department was testing. The stated goal was to put at least one million rounds through them in order to fully evaluate the design. Each shooter was issued an "experimental" Glock Model 19 and three magazines with the orange base plates. A brief visual examination prior to shooting disclosed it to be a rather standard looking third generation Model 19 with the finger grooves and rail. The only noticeable design difference was the extractor. It had a square protrusion of extra metal on the leading edge closest to the chamber. My initial impression was that it was designed as a loaded chamber indicator. During shooting, however, the "experimental" Model 19 proved to be problematic. All shooters were asked to advise the line officers of any and all problems with the weapons. I began shooting slowly to check out the action and immediately noticed a strange "stutter" as the gun cycled. Upon holding the trigger fully rearward after each shot I found that in 60% of the shots fired the slide would stay about 1/16 of an inch out of battery until the trigger was released and allowed to cycle forward. At that time the slide would go into full battery. I called over the nearest range officer and directed him to observe the rear of the slide of the weapon as I fired. He picked up on it immediately without my having to explain the problem to him, commenting: "The slide is staying back until you release the trigger." He stayed behind me for the rest of that box of ammo and observed the functioning of the weapon. During a break to reload magazines he noted the serial number of the pistol on the rear of the score sheet along with a description of the event. For the second box of ammo I shot rapid-fire exclusively to see if the function of the weapon was affected. I had two failures to go into battery; the first was about ¼-inch out of battery and was reduced by a support-hand smack to the rear of the slide. The second, about two magazines later was a full failure to chamber with the nose of the next round buried in the feed ramp. A sharp tap to the base plate of the magazine reduced it. In both cases shooting resumed after corrective action was taken with no further difficulty. Not too impressive a performance for the "experimental" Glock. When speaking with the range officer I asked if this was Glock's answer to the Phase Three problem and he answered in the affirmative and described the new extractor as also serving as a chamber loaded indicator. Although these were not Phase Three malfunctions that I was experiencing that day, my opinion of the "experimental" Model 19 was not at all favorable.

    Slowly, the Phase Three issue has begun cropping up in areas previously unsullied. Pat Rogers has reported multiple Models 19 experiencing "Phase Threes" on the line at Gunsite over a three-day period. He relates that a change of ammo corrected the problem for the shooters he was instructing in that group. However, another class shooting the same lot of ammo at the same time had none of their Models 19 burp even once. Why did one group of 19s choke when the others didn't? Pat himself owned a Model 19 that suffered Phase Three stoppages so consistently that he had no choice but to get rid of it. Internet discussion groups have revealed other police and privately owned Models 19 with the same problems. It is now mid-2002 and the issue is still not resolved. Glock has had many meetings with the staff of the NYPD FTS and has indeed put effort into a solution. My understanding is that Glock is in the process of attempting a long term solution to this problem but that as of this writing it has yet to be implemented.

    Let me be clear on one thing: I am not bashing the Glock Model 19. I have one that has been utterly reliable for me through literally tens of thousands of rounds since 1992. The Model 19 is a good weapon and if I had to stop carrying my 1911 tomorrow I would not feel uncomfortable using that particular weapon as a carry gun. My issue Model 19 performed well on the streets of NY City for ten years of service. It is my personal belief that if you own a Model 19 that has not experienced a Phase Three with extensive use you are probably good to go. What I am saying is that there is an issue regarding the reliability of some specimens of this model and it must be fully addressed before someone pays the bill on it with their life.
    It pays to dig a little deeper into the actual experiences LE has with a product before using LE purchase as a guide for yourself.

    FWIW, my preferred duty sidearm is a 1911 preferably w/o MIM or FPB.

  20. #40
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    It was my understanding that Third Generation .40 Glocks have more support in the chamber area designed in. I have seen pictures of the 3rd gen barrel with a BARSTO and the Glock barrel had more support than the BARSTO. Dooes anybody have any real dope on this. (Please no conjecture or opinions, need measurements of personal experience with factory people who would know.) I have a third generation G23 and I would really like to know.

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