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  1. #26
    Mike Barham's Avatar
    Mike Barham is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    I've yet to see a satisfying relation for stopping power as a function of either KE or momentum. I personally put more stock in momentum, but I can't support that.
    Neither KE nor momentum considers bullet design, which is critical when discussing "stopping power." If I had to shoot a guy, I'd rather do it with a good JHP .380 than a solid-bullet .357, for example.

    Rather than using a mathematical formula that only considers a bullet's potential, why not look at target damage to determine actual bullet effects? A handgun bullet that penetrates to 12" and expands to .70" is going to do roughly the same amount of damage to the target regardless of whether it starts as a 9mm, a .40 or a .45.
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  3. #27
    vjc123 is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks to everyone for all the help. I think I have narrowed it down to a 9mm Sig or Sprinfield. Not if i could only find a range in my state that rents guns. Thanks again.

  4. #28
    Snowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Neither KE nor momentum considers bullet design, which is critical when discussing "stopping power." If I had to shoot a guy, I'd rather do it with a good JHP .380 than a solid-bullet .357, for example.

    Rather than using a mathematical formula that only considers a bullet's potential, why not look at target damage to determine actual bullet effects? A handgun bullet that penetrates to 12" and expands to .70" is going to do roughly the same amount of damage to the target regardless of whether it starts as a 9mm, a .40 or a .45.
    Sure. Empirical data is almost always a better indication than a theoretical formula. However, for a similar bullet design, I'll bet you could fit a relation of stopping power as a function of KE or P. Of course, bullet diameter would also need to be controlled. Anyway, if such a relation existed it would be neat to see.

  5. #29
    hideit's Avatar
    hideit is offline Senior Member
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    for RSP its the 45 hands down
    i have an excell sheet I can send you
    and yes the formula favors the larrger dia bullet
    the 45 is king
    it wont go thru walls because of lower velocity
    but for CCW the new single stack 9mm are awfully nice like the walther PPS

  6. #30
    DevilsJohnson is offline Senior Member
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    LoL!
    Get a 9mm AND a 45 ACP..And tell the wife she can use the one not in your hand at the moment

    You have a lot to think about really. Try as many as you and your wife can then get what will fit you both the most comfortable. A 45 will do neither of you any good if you are going to flinch before the hammer drops or it doesn't feel right when you draw it. The best pistol in the world will do you no good if it don't fit your hand right.

  7. #31
    vjc123 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilsJohnson View Post
    LoL!
    Get a 9mm AND a 45 ACP..And tell the wife she can use the one not in your hand at the moment

    You have a lot to think about really. Try as many as you and your wife can then get what will fit you both the most comfortable. A 45 will do neither of you any good if you are going to flinch before the hammer drops or it doesn't feel right when you draw it. The best pistol in the world will do you no good if it don't fit your hand right.
    I think that is a very good comment and is why I am leaning toward a sig 9mm right now. First of all it seems as though they are excellent guns, and since I am a newbie to the hand gun scene it will help me when I draw near to buying a .45ACP.

    I have to say this is quite an expensive hobby I decided to pick up. I went trap shooting for the first time the other day and now I am hooked on that. Thanks to all of you for some great advice.

  8. #32
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hideit View Post
    for RSP its the 45 hands down
    i have an excell sheet I can send you
    and yes the formula favors the larrger dia bullet
    the 45 is king
    it wont go thru walls because of lower velocity
    but for CCW the new single stack 9mm are awfully nice like the walther PPS
    Wow, I haven't seen a serious reference to Julian Hatcher's ancient formula for Relative Stopping Power in...ages. While an interesting attempt to mathematically quantify "stopping power," Hatcher's RSP has time and time again been shown to dramatically underrate light/fast frangible bullets. Probably the best example of this is the full-charge 125 gr. .357 Magnum, which, back when cops carried revolvers, was widely considered the best load available. Similar things can be said of +P and +P+ 9mm loads, which have been amply proven in the real world.

    As for .45ACP not going through walls, I will once again reference the Box of Truth tests (www.theboxotruth.com) which demonstrate that .45 and 9mm will both sail completely through a typically-constructed house. There are good reasons to choose the .45, but some illusion of safety when cracking off rounds inside a house is not one of them.
    Employed by Galco Gunleather - www.galcogunleather.com / Veteran OEF VIII

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  9. #33
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    My guess is that you will, like most of us, become addicted and buy more than one gun. For now, I'd get a good 9 (cheap ammo, and in spite of the caliber wars, good for self defense). With the 9, you'll practice a lot. You can get a .45 later, and if it becomes expensive to shoot, it's a very easy cartridge to reload.

    For the 9, I'd look at a Sig 228, 229 or 226, Glock 17 or 19.

    For the .45, I'd look at a Sig 220, XD 45 Tactical, Glock 21. I can't advise you on 1911's, because I haven't shot one since 1968.

    Self Defense variables: .45 means a larger bullet, smaller mag capacity; 9 millimeter means good muzzle velocity, large mag capacity, less recoil. I'd trust either one as a self defense caliber.

  10. #34
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    I've never been partial to 9mm, but it's just personal preference. The 9mm ammo is half the price of .45 ACP or darn close to it.

    That being said, check out the Browning 9mm if you haven't already. One of the best pistols I've ever shot, in any caliber

    I carry a .45 - Springfield XD. I used to carry a 1911 Para Ordnance .40

    I can tell you that the 1911 frame is extremely reliable, simple and trustworthy. Pretty much fool proof.

  11. #35
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    I was looking at body armor last week. It takes a level II or III vest to stop a 9mm round but a 45 can be stopped by a level I vest. That alone should tell you that the 9mm has much better penetration.

  12. #36
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SemoShooter View Post
    I was looking at body armor last week. It takes a level II or III vest to stop a 9mm round but a 45 can be stopped by a level I vest. That alone should tell you that the 9mm has much better penetration.
    Heh heh, yeah, it tells us that 9mm penetrates Kevlar better than .45. They penetrate about the same in both wallboard and flesh, which are much more realistic "targets" than body armor, at least for most armed citizens.
    Employed by Galco Gunleather - www.galcogunleather.com / Veteran OEF VIII

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  13. #37
    DevilsJohnson is offline Senior Member
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    Well I have both a 9mm and 45 ACP I prefer to carry the 45 and I love to shoot the 9mm at the range although either make a good carry weapon.

    Like I had said find what is the best fit and remember grips can be changed on most...lol..even a handall on a Glock changes the way it feels a good deal.

    [Wonders to himself how many have added ACP and Glock to the spell check dict..lol]

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