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  1. #1
    john doe. is offline Banned
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    Caliber war starting right now.

    Okay ya all. Let's keep this clean. No eye poking, groin kicking or shooting allowed. No, "I'm right and you're a moron!" comments. This is to learn and that's why I am posting this. kiss, kiss, hug, hug

    Iíve been thinking hard about what caliber I want for my next CCW. I want a smaller gun than my G23 and have been looking at the Kel-Tec PF-9 but its had so many problem Iíve pretty much eliminated it. Next would be the P-11 (9mm) or P3-AT (.380).

    So I did a little research and this is what I found. I used the same round for comparison. Federal JHP Hydra-Shok
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    TKO=Taylor Index
    Penetration= Four plastic jugs filled with water.
    TKO value = [ Weight (gr) x Terminal Velocity (fps) x caliber (in) ] ų 7000
    (higher the better)

    Firearm: Browning Hi-Power
    Barrel Length: 4.75"
    Caliber: 9MM Luger
    Bullet Diameter: 0.355"
    Bullet Weight: 124 grains
    Make: Federal JHP Hydra-Shok
    Velocity: 1117 FPS
    Recovered Bullet Diameter: 0.635"
    Recovered Bullet Weight: 120.5 grains
    Distance From Muzzle: 20'
    Penetration: 15Ē
    TKO: 7.51


    Firearm: Beretta 84F
    Barrel Length: 3.5"
    Caliber: .380 ACP
    Bullet Diameter: 0.355"
    Bullet Weight: 90 grains
    Make: Federal JHP Hydra-Shok
    Velocity: 1030 FPS
    Recovered Bullet Diameter: 0.572"
    Recovered Bullet Weight: 89.8 grains
    Distance From Muzzle: 20'
    Penetration: 13Ē
    TKO: 5.032

    Firearm: Kimber CPD
    Barrel Length: 3.0"
    Caliber: .45 ACP
    Bullet Diameter: 0.451"
    Bullet Weight: 165 grains
    Make: Federal JHP Hydra-Shok
    Velocity: 934 FPS
    Recovered Bullet Diameter: 0.717"
    Recovered Bullet Weight: 160.0 grains
    Distance From Muzzle: 20'
    Penetration: 14Ē
    TKO: 6.428

    As you can see the 9mm has a better TKO than a .45 which Iím sure Iíll hear about from you .45 hard heads. The .380 is not much under the .45 basically because of velocity. I understand the the barrel length will affect velocity and that shot placement is key. Iíve tried to take (placement) that factor out.

    http://www.stevespages.com/page8f.htm

    Okay ya all. Chop away. Iím a man. I can take it. Just donít hurt my feelings because Iím a sensitive 21st century man.

    Take a breath Shipwreck. It'll be okay. We're all adults here and we've been very good about keeping things civil here. That is why I'm here.

  2. #2
    spacedoggy's Avatar
    spacedoggy is offline Senior Member
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    I'm trying to figure this out can you define the Taylor Index for me?

  3. #3
    Spenser is offline Member
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    Bottom line: I don't want to be shot with any of them.

    It seems as though it really DOES come down to shot placement. This ought to be a lesson for all of us.

  4. #4
    nobody_special is offline Junior Member
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    That TKO figure is interesting... it's essentially momentum times caliber, which is perhaps not the best statistic for ballistic effectiveness, but it's not useless either.

    My opinion: go with the 9mm. You get more in the magazine, plus good penetration (especially with +P rounds) which is important. The extra ~0.1" expanded diameter doesn't make a big difference; a 9mm round that expands to 0.65" or so will do plenty of damage, and a .45 ACP which expands to 0.75" or so is only slightly more likely to hit something vital.

    Spenser, I agree that shot placement is more important, but to that I would also add luck.

  5. #5
    -gunut-'s Avatar
    -gunut- is offline Senior Member
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    Go with whatever you want. I prefer the .45 myself. If ya hit the same point with a 9mm and .45 both will provide enough penetration but the .45 is still goin to leave a bigger hole. Instead of the light loads listed I prefer the 230gr hollow points. I would definitely take the 9mm over the .380 though.

  6. #6
    js's Avatar
    js
    js is offline Administrator
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    Personally, I prefer the .45

    Shot placement matters, bullet size matters, type of bullet matters...they all matter. But what matters the most is how you and you alone shoot with a certain type of bullet. Try them all out...go to a range that rents and give them all a try. Whatever round you are the most comfortable with and most accurate with, well... that's the one for you.
    "bing bang boom! hair out...hamburger time" - William Murderface

  7. #7
    john doe. is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by spacedoggy View Post
    I'm trying to figure this out can you define the Taylor Index for me?
    Taylor Index- http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July02.htm

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ya, shot placement is ultimately the key to self protection. If I could find a nice compact, single stack, reliable .45 Iíd go for it.

    Hereís another interesting read which tells you a lot about the .45 in terms of stopping power.
    http://www.chucktaylorasaa.com/stoppingpower.html

  8. #8
    jmoln is offline Junior Member
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    I don't follow your math . . . here is what I see . . . the .45 wins!

    9mm 124 x 1117 x .355 / 7000 = 7.02

    .380 90 x 1030 x .355 / 7000 = 4.70

    .45 165 x 934 x .451 / 7000 = 9.93 (42% better than 9mm
    and 111% better than .380)

    Am I interpreting the numbers wrong?

  9. #9
    john doe. is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmoln View Post
    I don't follow your math . . . here is what I see . . . the .45 wins!

    9mm 124 x 1117 x .355 / 7000 = 7.02

    .380 90 x 1030 x .355 / 7000 = 4.70

    .45 165 x 934 x .451 / 7000 = 9.93 (42% better than 9mm
    and 111% better than .380)

    Am I interpreting the numbers wrong?
    You may be right. I was doing a lot of that in my head. It would make sense that the .45 would be a better round. My bad.

  10. #10
    Baldy's Avatar
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    Toni my boy why do you think many of our troops right now are begging for the .45cal? I'll tell you why it's because they are hitting the towel heads two and three times with the 9mm and they keep fighting. They hit them once with the .45cal and they go down. It's a lot easier to make the second shot if needed, if your target isn't running. Pack what you shoot the best. Forget all this mumbo-jumbo stuff.

  11. #11
    tony pasley's Avatar
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    I don't remember where to find it now there was a report about the use of the 38 and 45 lc during the Spanish American War. It will explain why the U.S. wanted a 45 cal. in an auto loader pistol.
    The next point I would like to make is the smaller size is easier to carry but it is more important what you shoot the best. The weapon that you hit with is what is more important for defensive carry.
    Now as to cal. in my non-humble opinion you should go with a 45 acp.

  12. #12
    Shipwreck's Avatar
    Shipwreck is online now HGF Forum Moderator
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    Well, I'm a 25 ACP kinda guy

  13. #13
    scooter's Avatar
    scooter is offline Supporting Member - Legally Armed Scooter Trash
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    Im waitin' for someone to make a semiauto pistol using the .50 bmg

  14. #14
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Just a couple of quick observations, since I think caliber wars are pretty pointless.

    * IIRC, Pondoro Taylor came up with the TKO index as a way of measuring the concussive effects of solid, large-bore rifle bullets on elephants (and perhaps other very large game). I am not sure what relevance it has when discussing shooting crackheads using pocket pistols loaded with HPs.

    * The P3AT really fits into a totally different tactical niche than the other guns. It's a true pocket gun (I have mine in my pocket right now), whereas the others are really small belt guns.

    * The 3" 1911 is only marginally smaller than a Glock 23, though it is thinner. It is probably not as reliable as the Glock.

    * The only really relevant numbers are expansion and penetration, since these will tell you approximately how much damage was done to the target (which is the actual goal). Here we see that the .45 comes out on top, but isn't dramatically better than 9mm. The .380 performs, well, like a pocket pistol.
    Employed by Galco Gunleather - www.galcogunleather.com / Veteran OEF VIII

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  15. #15
    Spenser is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by scooter View Post
    Im waitin' for someone to make a semiauto pistol using the .50 bmg
    My kingdom for a .500 S&W Derringer!

    That would be the TRUE Noisy Cricket.


    Probably have to know a decent hand surgeon after firing....

  16. #16
    clic2323's Avatar
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    +1 more for .45

  17. #17
    TOF's Avatar
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    You forgot to list the best choice. .40 S&W

    A .380 and hand grenade might get you out of trouble but the .380 won't.

    I prefer the velocity/grain weight combo of the .40.

  18. #18
    2400's Avatar
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    Here's a comparison.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  19. #19
    spacedoggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baldy View Post
    Toni my boy why do you think many of our troops right now are begging for the .45cal? I'll tell you why it's because they are hitting the towel heads two and three times with the 9mm and they keep fighting. They hit them once with the .45cal and they go down. It's a lot easier to make the second shot if needed, if your target isn't running. Pack what you shoot the best. Forget all this mumbo-jumbo stuff.
    This is very true. I know they are only allowed to use ball ammo. Do you think they would have better results with the 9mm if they could use +p's and hollow points? I worked once with an Israeli solder back in the 70's and all they wanted was the 45acp because it would stop with one shot and the 9mm took 2 to 3.

  20. #20
    spacedoggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shipwreck View Post
    Well, I'm a 25 ACP kinda guy
    Shipwreck my wife said size does matter.

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