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  1. #1
    Smitty79's Avatar
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    Hates DA and Glock

    My son is looking for a 9mm. He doesn't like my Glocks because of the trigger in a trigger. We borrowed a SIG 226 and he, like me, can't get happy with the first shot long pull. He loves to shoot his Ruger 22/45. An STI Spartan 9mm would probably be fun to shoot. But he wants large capacity magazine. Most 2011's are out of his price range.

    I am thinking a CZ with a safety, not a decocker, a Tanfoglio Witness Elite Match or maybe he can use an M&P, as it doesn't it doesn't use the same set up as a Glock.

    What else should he try?

    Would really like to keep it under $700

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    rex
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    Doesn't the M&P use the same trigger setup but it's a 2pc face instead of a bar?Tomato,tomaato.

    Haven't shot a CZ but he may like it a lot,have him try one if the 1911s are out.

    My boy bought an EAA Witness P-S (or something similar) 40 and I was kind of impressed with it for under $500.I don't know what kind of recoil system is in it but it recoiled quite mellow for a plastic 40.

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    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty79 View Post
    My son is looking for a 9mm. He doesn't like my Glocks because of the trigger in a trigger. We borrowed a SIG 226 and he, like me, can't get happy with the first shot long pull. He loves to shoot his Ruger 22/45. An STI Spartan 9mm would probably be fun to shoot. But he wants large capacity magazine. Most 2011's are out of his price range.

    I am thinking a CZ with a safety, not a decocker, a Tanfoglio Witness Elite Match or maybe he can use an M&P, as it doesn't it doesn't use the same set up as a Glock.

    What else should he try?

    Would really like to keep it under $700
    Smith and Wesson classifies their M&P pistols as DAO. They have two stage triggers and a trigger safety.. just like the Glock which is also a DAO. Technically the M&P is actually a SAO (to differentiate it from a SA) since the striker is held in a fully cocked position for release whereas the Glock striker is partially cocked until the user begins pulling through the first stage.

  5. #4
    rex
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    Not going there but correct.Still tomatoes,tomaatoes.Same basic principal,different achievement.

    I don't want to start poo,but if you want reliable look at HK.The hammer or mainspring is very stiff,but the 2pc hammer and setup gives you a light trigger with a positive primer hit,plus a seond strike option.

    Glocks are quasi DA/SA,that's their failure.They are basically an SA gun but the masses they were marketed for weren't quite bright enough to realize there's a significant amount of training to avoid the first coined ailment-Glock leg.NYC police,which couldn't control the Smiths let alone revolvers,had to go to an astronomical 12lb pull so they may not endanger innocents?Yes,NYC is a sheethole,but really,my friggin POS Crossman pump was a better close range gun.

    Whatever floats your boat.

  6. #5
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rex View Post
    Not going there but correct.Still tomatoes,tomaatoes.Same basic principal,different achievement.

    I don't want to start poo,but if you want reliable look at HK.The hammer or mainspring is very stiff,but the 2pc hammer and setup gives you a light trigger with a positive primer hit,plus a seond strike option.

    Glocks are quasi DA/SA,that's their failure.They are basically an SA gun but the masses they were marketed for weren't quite bright enough to realize there's a significant amount of training to avoid the first coined ailment-Glock leg.NYC police,which couldn't control the Smiths let alone revolvers,had to go to an astronomical 12lb pull so they may not endanger innocents?Yes,NYC is a sheethole,but really,my friggin POS Crossman pump was a better close range gun.

    Whatever floats your boat.
    The Glock design is a true DAO design without second strike capability. Remember, action type is defined by the tasks the trigger performs; not a hammer or striker. When you rack the slide of a Glock, the striker is held in a partially cocked condition by the cruciform. With the Glock's two stage trigger, the first stage completes the cocking of the striker (action #1) then releases the striker to fire a cartridge (action #2). It can only do this. It is not capable of any other action to fire a around, hence the Double Action Only designation.

    Several years ago, I got into a spirited conversation with someone on another website who insisted that the Glock was a single action design. I just could not convince him how their system functioned. So I called Glock and spoke to a technical person. He assured me that both Glock and the BATFE designated the Glock design as DAO.

    So to reiterate, a handgun's action type is determined by what the trigger does... nothing else. All you need do is to understand the task(s) carried out by the trigger to fire the gun.

    As to your second part regarding the NY police, and others, with striker fired handguns, that is almost completely an issue of training. Washington, DC police had the same problems but hey, when you hired convicted felons as police and pretty much skip the training, you get what you pay for.

    The Glock, or the M&P or XD, are not at all like their former revolvers, such as the Ruger Security Six. Before we knew it, police were trying to make new holes in sidewalks or their own feet and legs. Can't feel sorry for someone who holsters a gun with his finger still on the trigger or pulls it and goes for the trigger as its being pulled. Others in the way or property, of course, but not the user.

    These guns are not like others in that the incorporate a two-stage trigger with the second stage having a very short pull (around 1/8" or less). Nothing like that double action Security Six with a rather long and heavy trigger. The Kahr is more like that revolver than a Glock will ever be, albeit with a much shorter pull (3/8"). I know that when Arlington, Virginia police were issued Glocks as their duty sidearms, they went through quite a bit of training and practice before hitting the streets with that gun. So where was New York City in all of this? Shooting themselves in the foot perhaps?

    Any gun can be a detriment to the user when handled incorrectly, be it a Glock or a 1911 or even that old standby... the double action revolver. It behooves anyone who is going to carry a sidearm to become intimately familiar with that weapons system. To know it like he know breathing. I would strongly suggest to people who are serious about their carry, and anyone who carries should be serious about it, to find a range that allows draw-and-fire practice. You can practice all you want at home with an empty gun. But there is no substitute for drawing and firing, then reloading a gun with live ammunition. Especially at targets that present then go to edge.

  7. #6
    Bisley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty79 View Post
    I am thinking a CZ with a safety, not a decocker...
    I like CZ's a lot, but they are DA/SA like the Sig he doesn't like, unless he is willing to carry cocked and locked, like a 1911, which is fine, but takes some getting used to.

    Personally, I would suggest a striker fired pistol for concealed carry (Glock, XD, M&P, etc.) and just tell him to train enough with it to be comfortable carrying it.

  8. #7
    schyfy's Avatar
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    Has he looked into a FN9?

  9. #8
    rex
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    I know what you're saying SouthernBoy,technically it is a DA.I just see it as closer to SA because you're only partially cocking the striker,not fully like a revolver.

    I still think HK has the best system,you can get a light pull without sacrificing primer ignition.I haven't played with an M&P yet but they seem nice from what I hear.

  10. #9
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rex View Post
    I know what you're saying SouthernBoy,technically it is a DA.I just see it as closer to SA because you're only partially cocking the striker,not fully like a revolver.

    I still think HK has the best system,you can get a light pull without sacrificing primer ignition.I haven't played with an M&P yet but they seem nice from what I hear.
    DAO not DA. There is a huge difference between DA and DAO. The fact that the trigger performs two distinct tasks and only two distinct tasks makes the Glock a DAO design. I'm not at all familiar with the HK line of handguns so I am really out in the cold on that one.

    M&P's are excellent pistols. I own three and just got back from the range a few minutes ago where I shot my M&P 9mm Pro Series. Very accurate gun and very reliable as well.

    One of the best striker fired DAO designs is the Kahr system. The trigger has a fairly short pull (3/8"), is a single stage design, and has the same fluid, smooth pull from start to break. Just no second strike capability.

  11. #10
    Glock Doctor is offline Banned
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    It might benefit your son to learn how to live with and use different triggers and actions rather than to hold out for exactly what he wants. (Sometimes, and in certain situations, it isn't always possible to use, 'your ideal pistol'; you've got to be able to use somebody else's idea of perfection, instead. There is, also, the issue of cross-training on different firearm platforms, too.)

    SIG offers more than just a DA trigger mechanism. For instance there is SIG's DAK/DA trigger mechanism; and, for whatever it's worth, I have yet to meet any reasonably experienced pistol shooter who can't handle a DAK trigger well. Looking for perfection in any pistol is a difficult goal to achieve. Every pistol brand has it's own little quirks, subjective shortcomings, and feel. CZ's are great pistols, too; but a lot of shooters find it to be a difficult stretch in order to comfortably squeeze a CZ's trigger - Especially on the first shot.

    If it's got to be a 1911 style single action then - happily - there are plenty of affordable recently introduced 1911 pattern pistols out there: Remington, Ruger, Smith & Wesson, and the more basic Springfield models immediately come to mind. If you can afford a 226 then you can afford one of these mid-range brands too.

    I'm not trying to be rude; but, it sounds like your son could use some good professional pistol training. Whenever I help someone to select their first pistol all I'm concerned with is how well, or not, the pistol fits into the hand? If the pistol nestles nicely into the web of the hand, and the distal joint of the extended trigger finger reaches past the pistol's trigger when that trigger is in its most forward position - WITHOUT TORQUING THE GUN in the student's hand - then I know the student is getting a pistol that he's going to be able to (eventually) use well.

    The type of action isn't really critical; and only two other primary considerations usually come into play: (1) How, 'ingrained' and well-established are the student's safety and gun-handling habits; and (2) how well does the student handle a particular action type? (DA shooting and trigger technique is harder to learn than SA shooting and trigger technique; BUT, when properly taught to a motivated or well-coordinated student, neither trigger system is superior to the other.)

    To some extent the pistol's capacity, also, gets considered; but, more ammo does not, necessarily, translate into either greater accuracy or more on-target hits. The usual deciding factor between choosing a pistol, or choosing a revolver comes down to how easy it is for the student to smoothly handle and shoot one or the other straight. Magazine capacity is a, 'wow factor' that many neophyte shooters will gravitate toward; but, in my experience, at any distance greater than what most people can spit, increased ammo capacity usually leads to little more than lots of clean misses, and more wounded bystanders than anything else. (There are, at present, NUMEROUS reports of police and military pistol engagements to prove this statement!)

    I grew up in a much different age than the one we're living in now. The men who taught me to shoot used to point me at a bench full of guns, tell me to pick one up, and expected me to use it competently. There was no such thing as choosing a gun that fit you well, or that you particularly liked. You used whatever firearm the Army or Marines handed you, learned the platform well, and continued to maintain these skillsets on into later civilian life.

    Personally, I'm not, 'crazy' about SIG pistols and consider them to be highly overpriced; but, in all fairness, SIG's, 'double-action Kellerman' trigger system is one of the very best DA triggers around. (There is, also, a short-throw DAK trigger that is (or, at least, was) available from the factory on special order only. I've used this SIG trigger in competition; and it's a beautiful short-throw trigger that I am positive any reasonably competent pistolero might quickly adapt to well!)

    P226 DAK


    To paraphrase Jeff Cooper: Don't be too fussy about whatever pistol you like to use. Why? Because, someday, you might need to use the other guy's weapon in order to save your own life. This philosophy has long held a strong influence over my own individual weapons training as well as the pistol training of those with whom I've worked, extensively.

  12. #11
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock Doctor View Post
    It might benefit your son to learn how to live with and use different triggers and actions rather than to hold out for exactly what he wants. (Sometimes, and in certain situations, it isn't always possible to use, 'your ideal pistol'; you've got to be able to use somebody else's idea of perfection, instead. There is, also, the issue of cross-training on different firearm platforms, too.)

    SIG offers more than just a DA trigger mechanism. For instance there is SIG's DAK/DA trigger mechanism; and, for whatever it's worth, I have yet to meet any reasonably experienced pistol shooter who can't handle a DAK trigger well. Looking for perfection in any pistol is a difficult goal to achieve. Every pistol brand has it's own little quirks, subjective shortcomings, and feel. CZ's are great pistols, too; but a lot of shooters find it to be a difficult stretch in order to comfortably squeeze a CZ's trigger - Especially on the first shot.

    If it's got to be a 1911 style single action then - happily - there are plenty of affordable recently introduced 1911 pattern pistols out there: Remington, Ruger, Smith & Wesson, and the more basic Springfield models immediately come to mind. If you can afford a 226 then you can afford one of these mid-range brands too.

    I'm not trying to be rude; but, it sounds like your son could use some good professional pistol training. Whenever I help someone to select their first pistol all I'm concerned with is how well, or not, the pistol fits into the hand? If the pistol nestles nicely into the web of the hand; and the distal joint of the extended trigger finger reaches past the pistol's trigger when that trigger is in its most forward position - WITHOUT TORQUING THE GUN in the student's hand - then I know the student is getting a pistol that he's going to be able to (eventually) use well.

    The type of action isn't really critical; and only two other primary considerations usually come into play: (1) How, 'ingrained' and well-established are the student's safety and gun-handling habits; and (2) how well does the student handle a particular action type? (DA shooting and trigger technique is harder to learn than SA shooting and trigger technique; BUT, when properly taught to a motivated or well-coordinated student, neither trigger system is superior to the other.)

    To some extent the pistol's capacity, also, gets considered; but, more ammo does not, necessarily, translate into either greater accuracy or more on-target hits. The usual deciding factor between choosing a pistol, or choosing a revolver comes down to how easy it is for the student to smoothly handle and shoot one, or the other straight. Magazine capacity is a, 'wow factor' that many neophyte shooters will gravitate toward; but, in my experience, at any distance greater than what most people can spit, increased ammo capacity usually leads to little more than lots of clean misses, and more wounded bystanders than anything else. (There are, at present, NUMEROUS police and military pistol engagements to prove this statement!)

    I grew up in a much different age than the one we're living in now. The men who taught me to shoot used to point me at a bench full of guns, tell me to pick one up, and expected me to use it competently. There was no such thing as choosing a gun that fit you well, or that you particularly liked. You used whatever firearm the Army or Marines handed you, learned the platform well, and continued to maintain these skillsets on into later civilian life.

    Personally, I'm not, 'crazy' about SIG pistols and consider them to be highly overpriced; but, in all fairness, SIG's, 'double-action Kellerman' trigger system is one of the very best DA triggers around. (There is, also, a short-throw DAK trigger that is (or, at least, was) available from the factory on special order only. I've used this SIG trigger in competition; and it's a beautiful short-throw trigger that I am positive any reasonably competent pistolero might quickly adapt to well!)

    P226 DAK


    To paraphrase Jeff Cooper: Don't be too fussy about whatever pistol you like to use. Why? Because, someday, you might need to use the other guy's weapon in order to save your own life. This philosophy has long held a strong influence over my own individual weapons training as well as the pistol training of those with whom I've worked, extensively.
    Well done. Good advice. I like this one;

    "To paraphrase Jeff Cooper: Don't be too fussy about whatever pistol you like to use. Why? Because, someday, you might need to use the other guy's weapon in order to save your own life."

    Lotta truth in that little piece of Cooper quips. I also grew up in another time and I have also learned that change is inevitable with firearms as with most anything. However in the world of firearms, change most always improves the breed. I went through a number of defensive handguns before arriving at my present day preferences. And God willing, if I live long enough, I suspect I'll enjoy going through some more.

    Anyway, good job.

  13. #12
    rex
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    DAO not DA. There is a huge difference between DA and DAO. The fact that the trigger performs two distinct tasks and only two distinct tasks makes the Glock a DAO design. I'm not at all familiar with the HK line of handguns so I am really out in the cold on that one.

    M&P's are excellent pistols. I own three and just got back from the range a few minutes ago where I shot my M&P 9mm Pro Series. Very accurate gun and very reliable as well.

    One of the best striker fired DAO designs is the Kahr system. The trigger has a fairly short pull (3/8"), is a single stage design, and has the same fluid, smooth pull from start to break. Just no second strike capability.
    Correct again,excuse the brainfade the last 2 days because we got a little trashed last night celebrating a friend's birthday.I don't think I straightened up until 4 or 5 hrs ago.

    Never played with a Kahr either but the trigger sounds nice.

    HK has second strike but the second pull is a normal heavy pull.On the first pull,the internal half of the hammer is fully cocked and the external 1/2 goes forward as uncocked.Pulling the trigger recocks the outer under that little spring's tension and the FPB spring,then it mates with the internal 1/2 and trips it.Neat design.The light version gets down under 5lbs but the original is heavier than I like.HKs aren't known for great triggers but some aren't as bad as everyone says.Then again they're built as a military arm,not a range gun.Sucks they didn't continue with the 1911,that quite possibly would have been the best one made.

  14. #13
    Smitty79's Avatar
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    Just a few comments. My son fires my Glocks, his 22/45 and my Kahr competently. His groups with the Sig were OK. He's looking for his first center fire pistol and he wants to love it out of the box. Right now an SA is where he is leaning. He loves the trigger on his 22/45.

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    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty79 View Post
    Just a few comments. My son fires my Glocks, his 22/45 and my Kahr competently. His groups with the Sig were OK. He's looking for his first center fire pistol and he wants to love it out of the box. Right now an SA is where he is leaning. He loves the trigger on his 22/45.
    Take him to a range where they rent guns. Let him try as many as he wants. You just never know what is going to be that "ideal" gun (really, no such thing) until you have tried a bunch of them. Give you an example.

    In the mid 90's, I bought my first Glock; a model 23. Could shoot the thing worth a damn and just didn't like it at all. So when the model 27 came out, I traded for one of those. Better but still not best so I sold it, too. I turned to the Kahr series in .40S&W and 9mm and stayed with those until March 2007. Then on a lark, I bought another G23. Angels flew, birds laughed, and bears giggled. It was great. Since then, I have bought another six Glocks and I shoot all of them well. That second first gen3 G23 I bought in March 2007 is still my primary carry gun. I did go through a period over about 1 1/2 years recently of re-evaluation of my carry guns and went full circle.

    So do take him to a range where he can experience a number of different guns. Before doing this, find a gun show where he can handle a wide variety of handguns first in order to develop a list and narrow it down a bit. Do rush this process because it can get costly and you really do want to take the best decision you can right off the bat.

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    We went to the gun show yesterday. Be bought a CZ75 B in 9mm. OMG! I want one too. It is a safety, not decocker model, so most of the time it will be cocked and locked. Even the DA mode is easy and butter smooth. Far nicer gun than the SIG's I have fired. We put a couple hundred rounds through it at the range. POA=POI out of the box. Group, what group? All of the holes touching if I do my job.

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    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty79 View Post
    We went to the gun show yesterday. Be bought a CZ75 B in 9mm. OMG! I want one too. It is a safety, not decocker model, so most of the time it will be cocked and locked. Even the DA mode is easy and butter smooth. Far nicer gun than the SIG's I have fired. We put a couple hundred rounds through it at the range. POA=POI out of the box. Group, what group? All of the holes touching if I do my job.
    I'm thinking seriously about getting one of these. I put my email on budsgunshop's wish list. Maybe I'll go by one of my LGS's this week for kicks. I have handled them in the past and they feel just so nice. While I'm no a fan of a double action pistol, I could very easily make an exception with this one. Bet I wind up with one here in the rather close future.

  18. #17
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    Get the B model. Can be used cocked and locked or manually de-cocked. I believe DA works for second strike. DA is better than Sig or Berrettas I've sot or handled.

  19. #18
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty79 View Post
    Get the B model. Can be used cocked and locked or manually de-cocked. I believe DA works for second strike. DA is better than Sig or Berrettas I've sot or handled.
    Yes, it would be the 'B' model I would be interested in getting.

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    I've also got a Ruger 22/45, had a Ruger P90DC (decocker) .45 but traded recently for a Glock 36 .45 subcompact which I became immediately friendly with. I'm in awe of the consummate engineering and execution of manufacture of this firearm and couldn't now imagine having chosen any of the other contenders I so meticulously considered. It's all an individual matter of choice and opinion, however - to each, his own.

  21. #20
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthOrConsequences View Post
    I've also got a Ruger 22/45, had a Ruger P90DC (decocker) .45 but traded recently for a Glock 36 .45 subcompact which I became immediately friendly with. I'm in awe of the consummate engineering and execution of manufacture of this firearm and couldn't now imagine having chosen any of the other contenders I so meticulously considered. It's all an individual matter of choice and opinion, however - to each, his own.
    I have seven Glocks, six gen3's and one gen4, and I am also both amazed and humbled by the utter simplicity of the gun, especially in light of its magnificent reliability. I also have two Ruger 22/45's and used to own a P90DC. I didn't care for the P90DC and soon sold it. Currently I only have two .45ACP's. A Kimber Custom and an M&P 45 full size with the 4" barrel.

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