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  1. #1
    TheDoug's Avatar
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    Accuracy Assistance: HELP!

    Hey guys. I'm new to this site, and just searching for some old pros to maybe give me some useful pointers in improving my handgun accuracy. I'm surgical with a rifle, but the best I can get with a handgun is a four inch shot group at no more than ten-fifteen yards. On a silhouette, I can keep them all in the head, but they're not tight, they're all over the place. I'm not speed firing. This is with re-aiming after the recoil of each shot.

    I shoot a Kimber Ultra Carry II, normally using cheap rounds, but I use Golden Sabre hollowpoints for carry/defense.
    ( Save your time. I refuse to get laser grips, or any other cheats. I need to learn how to defend myself even if the batteries die...)

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  3. #2
    scooter's Avatar
    scooter is offline Supporting Member - Legally Armed Scooter Trash
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    The biggest tip ANYONE can give you is practice!
    and if possible have someone watch to see if you're fliching or anything.
    An observer can see if you do things you may swear you are NOT doing

  4. #3
    Holly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scooter View Post
    An observer can see if you do things you may swear you are NOT doing
    True. My husband's nagging is why I shoot so well.

  5. #4
    paratrooper is offline Senior Member
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    Practice, practice and then some more practice.

    Breathing, concentration, sight picture, and trigger control is imperative.

    Try another handgun as well, to see if your groupings improve. 99% of the time, it's the shooter and not the firearm in question.

    For the most part, firearms are inherently accurate........the shooter, not so much.

  6. #5
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoug View Post
    Hey guys. I'm new to this site, and just searching for some old pros to maybe give me some useful pointers in improving my handgun accuracy. I'm surgical with a rifle, but the best I can get with a handgun is a four inch shot group at no more than ten-fifteen yards. On a silhouette, I can keep them all in the head, but they're not tight, they're all over the place. I'm not speed firing. This is with re-aiming after the recoil of each shot.

    I shoot a Kimber Ultray carry II, normally using cheap rounds, but I use Golden Sabre hollowpoints for carry/defense.
    ( Save your time. I refuse to get laser grips, or any other cheats. I need to learn how to defend myself even if the batteries die...)
    You say you're surgical with a rifle, how long have you been shooting handguns? Have you determined your dominant eye? Are you shooting one eye open or two?

    15 yards, keeping them all in the head isn't bad, especially with a 3" 1911. Shoot from a rest and see if your accuracy improves, and if so by how much...

  7. #6
    TheDoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scooter View Post
    An observer can see if you do things you may swear you are NOT doing
    But i swear I'm not flinching!! I swear it! Heh. Yeah, I've gone with my brother and he seems to think that I'm anticipating the recoil. Which is odd, I'm not new to guns.

  8. #7
    TheDoug's Avatar
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    I've been around handguns for most of my life, but until I bought the Kimber last month, I've not really been actively shooting them. Out of habit, I'm shooting with my right eye, but both eyes open.

  9. #8
    Brevard13 is offline Member
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    This should help some. Also if you are left handed you will need to reverse the chart

  10. #9
    TheDoug's Avatar
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    If that's humor, it's splendid in it's believability.

  11. #10
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoug View Post
    If that's humor, it's splendid in it's believability.
    The above chart is legit. This one is humor.


  12. #11
    TedDeBearFrmHell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brevard13 View Post


    This should help some. Also if you are left handed you will need to reverse the chart
    this is a great learning tool

  13. #12
    TedDeBearFrmHell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vamarine View Post
    the above chart is legit. This one is humor.

    rofl

  14. #13
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    Another one that has some humor to it!!!

    RCG

  15. #14
    TheDoug's Avatar
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    I love it! HA!

  16. #15
    TheDoug's Avatar
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    Good stuff. I should print these out. The rangemaster will love them. (i'll never be invited back, but hey...)

  17. #16
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoug View Post
    I've been around handguns for most of my life, but until I bought the Kimber last month, I've not really been actively shooting them. Out of habit, I'm shooting with my right eye, but both eyes open.
    Right handed?


    As a long time shooter you may be used to shooting with only one eye open which may be your non-dominant eye and now it could be causing some issues with a pistol:

    Perform this to determine your dominant eye.



    1. Extend your arms in front of you with your palms facing away.
    2. Bring your hands together, forming a small hole by crossing the thumbs and fore fingers.
    3. Choose a small object about 15-20 feet away from you. With both eyes open, focus on the object as you look through the small hole.
    4. Close one eye and then the other. When you close one eye, the object will be stationary. When you close the other eye, the object should disappear from the hole or jump to one side.
    5. If the object does not move when you cover one eye, then that eye is dominant. The eye that sees the object and does not move is the dominant eye.

  18. #17
    TheDoug's Avatar
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    Depending on whether I marked the item first and then brought my hands to "hole" it, or made a hole and then found an item, I got a different result, but the left eye was the one that stayed focused when I brought my hands to make a hole around the object, and that's what I'm thinking you meant.
    I'm right handed. Left eye dominant, it seems, but I've always used my right eye on the scopes.

  19. #18
    Brevard13 is offline Member
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    Also shooting like this won't help either



    And remember


  20. #19
    ponzer04's Avatar
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    shooting like this won't help, unless you get yourself a set of these



  21. #20
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoug View Post
    Depending on whether I marked the item first and then brought my hands to "hole" it, or made a hole and then found an item, I got a different result, but the left eye was the one that stayed focused when I brought my hands to make a hole around the object, and that's what I'm thinking you meant.
    I'm right handed. Left eye dominant, it seems, but I've always used my right eye on the scopes.

    Are you finding that your accuracy is better when you first start shooting?

    It appears that you're left eye dominant, and right handed which makes you "Cross dominant" as such your right eye will start to fatigue a little earlier than your left.


    From a previous post:


    As previously posted:


    Quote Originally Posted by VAMarine View Post
    Cross dominant shooting is a funny thing, I'm left eye dominant and right handed and I've noticed the following:

    With pistols, I shoot more accurately using my left eye, but I've always been center when shooting with my right eye only, I just shoot tighter groups closing my left eye.

    With pistols, I can get good two eyes open sight picture by indexing my chin on my right shoulder and score good quick hits and maintain more peripheral vision than shooting with one eye open and one eye closed. Some like to cant the gun to the left at around a 45 degree angle (plus or minus) and have good results, but I didn't like the way the gun handled during recoil in that position.

    With rifles I've always shot right eyed only and managed to qualify mid to high expert multiple times while in the Marines, that's shooting with iron sights out to 500 yards and scoring hits on man size targets, shooting at 300 yards and 200 yards. It's not that big a deal being cross dominant with rifles if you're using iron sights. Some issues start up when you being using 1X optics, I can NOT get a good sight picture (proper sight alignment applied to the target) with an Aimpoint or EOTECH unless I close my left eye. Again canting the firearm will probably help, but I haven't really tried it with an optic equipped rifle. So with rifles I will shoot right eye only.

    As a cross dominant shooter, if you are going to shoot trap or skeet using your strong hand, you're screwed. You need to shoot the shotgun with whatever hand matches to your eye. You can probably learn to do it with the other hand, but it's going to be a pain in the rear.

    Back to pistols as this is the HANDGUN forum...

    There are many different schools of thought on cross dominance, I've been looking into this for a couple years and reading what others have to say on this matter and I've seen the following arguments.

    1: You should shoot with both eyes open for the improved peripheral vision.

    That only works if you can actually see your sights with both eyes open, unless your point shooting you need to see your sights to make hits. Not to mention that in times of mass adrenaline, we have the tenancy to go into tunnel vision and that improved vision of having two eyes open may not matter at all.

    2: You should shoot with whatever hand corresponds to your dominant eye.

    I don't know about everyone else, but my left hand is damn near useless. But here are two more points, one for and one against the above statement.

    A: Using your off hand that corresponds to your dominant eye will leave your strong hand available for negotiating obstacles and your mag changes may be faster.

    B: If you've been shooting with your hand that doesn't match your dominant eye, it's going to take a lot of practice getting used to drawing, aiming, and firing with the same precision* that you get with your dominant hand.

    3: You should cant the gun closer to your dominant eye.

    As noted above, guns are meant to recoil on a vertical plane, that's usually means that the gun is going to go with the front sight and travel at an arc. Canting the gun to get better sight picture is aligning the gun to hit you in the face and take your sights further off target while firing.

    2-8-12-New Content: Another option instead of canting the gun is simply moving your hands closer to your left side so that the gun is still straight up/down, but your right hand is now left of center. This moves the gun closer to your dominant eye, keeps it on the proper axis and doesn't require movement of the head and will most likely be easier to replicate using a proper
    draw-stroke, simply change the point where the hands meet at the chest an inch or two closer to your dominant eye.

    So here's the real deal from what I've tried and what I've learned from other instructors.

    Use whatever method works for you and improve that method.

    If you find that you get better hits and better performance using your right eye only, stick with it. If your left eye is dominant but you close it, your right eye is now dominant by lack of options.

    If you want to shoot with two eyes open, adjust your head laterally until you find the right sight picture and practice alot with it until that position is where you naturally end up after drawing and presenting the gun on target. It's taken me almost two years but the practice is finally paying off and I'm getting that "instinctual muscle memory" sometimes I lapse and find myself closing my right eye but for the most part I'm doing OK.

    If canting the gun works for you, use it.

    You don't have to shoot the same for every ocassion. If I'm shooting a rimfire bulls eye competition where I'm not over working my left hand, I'll shoot left handed as that's where I get my most accuracy. If I'm shooting close up defensive stlye I use both eyes open, if the target is a little further out and smaller, I will close my right eye for the most accuracy while using my dominant hand as it gives my best overall performance under prolonged use.

    There is no right or wrong way to shoot if the results you get with a given method work for you.


    * Accuracy vs. Precision: Accuracy is doing somehting correctly, precision is doing something accurately a number of times in a row and acheiving the same result at the end of an action. I can shoot more accurately left handed, but as time goes on, my left arm wears out faster than my right and my accuracy is effected as a result of "the shakes". While shooting right handed, I acheive an acceptable level of accuracy and due to the greater strength of my right side, I get more precision, that is to say I can acheive the desired result (a good hit) more often while shooting right handed.


    Now all that being said, after a couple months NOT shooting defensive style and shooting bullseye, I tried some defensive style shooting on Friday night and was all over the place with the method that had been working for me. I reverted back to just using my left eye while shooting right handed and my accuracy improved greatly.

    I'm done trying to shoot with both eyes open. I'm just going to stick with using my left eye with pistols and right eye with rifles.
    There's also this video which addresses the issue, I haven't had the time to watch it yet, but I've seen lot of Paul's videos and his content comes highly recommended.


  22. #21
    HK Dan is offline Member
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    If the rounds are all over the place you may be blinking just as the gun goes off too. It's hard to hit what you're aiming at with your eyes closed...<g> Get Matt Burkett's video on proper grip, concentrate on keeping your peepers open and watch that front sight. A great test for the blinking thing? ZCan you tell which way the sights go in recoil? That will also help you modify your grip strength, left vs. right.

    "All over the place" seems to indicate that it's not a trigger issue, but one form or another of a concentration issue. Either blinking or looking at the target before the gun goes off--something simple. Keep your visual focus on the top/center of the front sight, the target blurry, and press the trigger straight back (you'll have to use more finger on the trigger than you're used to on rifles).

    Good luck!
    Dan

  23. #22
    prof_fate is offline Member
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    You can get some snap caps and mix them into your magazines. When one chambers you won't know it until you pull the trigger so you'll be surprised when the gun doesn't go off - did you blink or flinch anyway?

  24. #23
    scooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prof_fate View Post
    You can get some snap caps and mix them into your magazines. When one chambers you won't know it until you pull the trigger so you'll be surprised when the gun doesn't go off - did you blink or flinch anyway?
    I completely forgot about this trick.....used it to help my sons learn to shoot so I dont know why I totally forgot it....CRS disease mebbe

  25. #24
    denner's Avatar
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    Also keep in mind a 3 inch 45 is probably not the easiest pistol to shoot and definately not designed to be 25 yard bulls eye gun.

  26. #25
    denner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brevard13 View Post




    Also shooting like this won't help either



    And remember

    Is that a broomhandle German Luger? BTW who's the idiot that let that guy have the gun?

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