What would you have said.....

I have a Sig SP2022 9mm. I was at my local sporting goods store buying ammo. I got 250 rounds, the guy started walking it to the front counter for payment while I was still looking around at the knives and such. As he was walking to the front, another associate asked what he had. He said 9mm. The other guy said "I didn't know you had a bb gun". Now it may be a little funny, but I took a little offense to it. I reactingly (is that a word?) walked towards the front and said "Its not the size of the bullet, it's the placement of it". It wasnt threatening, so dont worry, just a comment, a true comment on that. I know a 22lr will do the job if bullet placement is right on. I really don't think he even owned a gun, unless it was hidden in his pocket protector (Yes the still have those and yes, he had one). So, what is your take on it, what would you have said......

Not much, or, i would have replied; "you must have a .45", because i assure you he was a .45 or nothing kinda guy. Most probable he would have ragged on the .40 cal as well. But to compare 9mm to a BB is quite interesting and probably a kindly joke or a case of total lack of knowledge of ballistics. By far 9mm is the most popular pistol caliber in the world and with premium hollowpoints and proper shot placement it does the job well and is what I carry. A .45 will give you about 20-30% larger wound channel given the same high end hollow point but if you place either in a vital area the bad guy is not going to have a good day and won't know the difference.

dd, you'll never win in that argument , sorry,
I know you were not trying,
You handeled it better then I would have :smt076 :rolleyes:

Lateck,

When they say anything or ask what I am shooting or carrying and I have one of my nines I always tell them I'm shooting my "girl" gun or I have a "9mm GIRL". When you shoot a target and hit it during competition and it doesn't fall you can bet someone will ask you "what caliber does your husband shoot ?" if they find out you hit it with a 9. It's fun to kid each other and we all know we can all get it done. The only people take offense are usually the ones who lack confidence. It's part of being in the "brotherhood". Get used to it.

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Originally Posted by rgrundy

...It's fun to kid each other and we all know we can all get it done...It's part of being in the "brotherhood". Get used to it.

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Not exactly...
This was in a retail store, not among buddies at the range. They were selling him something. Did they want him to come back and buy more stuff?
If you want to keep your customers, you don't make wisecracks about their stuff, or about them. You do not take even the slightest chance of insulting or annoying one of your customers.
The remark was inappropriate and feckless, and the clerk was acting like a jerk.

He was just trying to be funny. No reason to get offensive about it. People's ideas very in terms of what calibers have good/decent stopping power. I am pretty sure everyone here has heard of someone getting shot with a .22 and dying (ex. Robert F. Kennedy) then you hear of someone getting shot by a .22 and surviving (ex. Ronald Reagan).

You hear several stories of people getting shot repeatedly by a 9mm and surviving though. Rapper 50 cents was shot 9 times with a 9mm (including the face and chest) and survived. I have heard stories from law enforcment of the same with .9mm, .40, and .45acp.

My uncle was in Vietnam and every once in a blue moon he will tell us one of his war stories. He was telling us about when he got ambushed. One of his closest friends was shot 4 times with a AK-47 once in the chest, once in the abodmen, one in the shoulder, and one in the leg. Guy lost a ton of blood and the medics didn't think he would make it. He did though. I called him superman. A few years ago he was shot 3 times by a 9mm in a gas station robbery attempt. He was able to grab the guy and pinn him down until the cops arrive. Of course 2 was in his bicep and one was in the same right should not far from where the ak-47 round hit him. He died not to long ago from cancer...RIP Gary.

Too many factors can affect what happens. The shot placement, type of ammo, distance, the person being shot, etc. A 9mm is definitely better than nothing at all. I have my M&P .40 full sized and compact. I run the .40 for just target practice and to shoot. When I carry or home defense I go to the .357.

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Originally Posted by Bulldog

A 9mm is definitely better than nothing at all. I have my M&P .40 full sized and compact. I run the .40 for just target practice and to shoot. When I carry or home defense I go to the .357.

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Well, I agree, to a point, except you're suggestion of 9mm being better than nothing at all. I believe 9mm to be better than 45, 40, or 357 for personnel defense if of course you're 9 holds at least 2 or three more BB's. In the link below an officer connected with 22 rounds from his glock .40, 17 of which hit center mass before ending the fight. An account of a 357 158grain hp hitting center mass and the subject running 60 yards before retiring. The article by Rob Pincus in which I base my opinion and wholeheartedly agree.

Being Wrong is Important... and, Admitting It is too!

Chuck Taylor's ASAA -Stopping Power

Officer Down: The Peter Soulis Incident - Below 100 - LawOfficer.com

Well, I definately do not lack confidence, I believe being a grunt in the Marine Corps took care of that! And I believe in the 9mm round, I think it's just as good as anything out there. It's cheap to shoot for target, plinking, yet stop effective for home defense, it's all about the placement. I know he was just making a joke, and this wasnt a whining post, more of "I'm new here, I wanna get to know people, so let me post something, anything, to start a discussion". Maybe I didn't take offense to it as much as it being an unexpected and inappropriate joke in his place of business. I didn't think about it until now, like I said, I figured I could start a discussion just to get out there. Maybe I worded it wrong and it came across wrong. Anyhow, continue, what would you have said.....

I've found it's a fools errand to debate "stopping power" at all, but I think it's unwise for a business to insult it's customers. A jab from a pal is one thing, a jab from a stranger, especially one soliciting my business, is another.

Personally I try never to get into the 9mm vs. .45 vs. .40 conversations. It is a no win way to spend valuable time. My buddies and I will on occasion talk about how I am shooting my wives gun when I shoot a 9mm and they are shooting their He man .45. But they are my friends and I have known them for years and I respect and am impressed with their knowlge of firearms. Then it is just good clean fun. They are not someone working in a place that wants to sell me a product. If a sales assosiate has to belittle my choice to in his mind impress someone, I can buy what ever I choose elsewhere. Very poor thing for a retail employee to do. That was out of line, i would have not engaged him in the conversation he was attempting to initiate, i would have returned my BB's to the shelf and shopped elsewhere.

RCG

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Originally Posted by recoilguy

Personally I try never to get into the 9mm vs. .45 vs. .40 conversations. It is a no win way to spend valuable time. My buddies and I will on occasion talk about how I am shooting my wives gun when I shoot a 9mm and they are shooting their He man .45. But they are my friends and I have known them for years and I respect and am impressed with their knowlge of firearms. Then it is just good clean fun. They are not someone working in a place that wants to sell me a product. If a sales assosiate has to belittle my choice to in his mind impress someone, I can buy what ever I choose elsewhere. Very poor thing for a retail employee to do. That was out of line, i would have not engaged him in the conversation he was attempting to initiate, i would have returned my BB's to the shelf and shopped elsewhere.

RCG

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reminds me of harley vs bmw vs suzi debates elsewhere

I wouldn't want to stand down range even from a sling shot let alone ANY firearm. I know how you feel with jabs from people you don't know. I don't really know why but, I take offense when I walk in somewhere and somebody says hey CHEIF guess I'm an a hole but, that sets me off

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Originally Posted by TedDeBearFrmHell

reminds me of harley vs bmw vs suzi debates elsewhere

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It is like deja Vu all over again...............

RCG

"If I wanted your opinion, I would have pulled your string" :anim_lol:

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Originally Posted by denner

Well, I agree, to a point, except you're suggestion of 9mm being better than nothing at all. I believe 9mm to be better than 45, 40, or 357 for personnel defense if of course you're 9 holds at least 2 or three more BB's. In the link below an officer connected with 22 rounds from his glock .40, 17 of which hit center mass before ending the fight. An account of a 357 158grain hp hitting center mass and the subject running 60 yards before retiring. The article by Rob Pincus in which I base my opinion and wholeheartedly agree.

Being Wrong is Important... and, Admitting It is too!

Chuck Taylor's ASAA -Stopping Power

Officer Down: The Peter Soulis Incident - Below 100 - LawOfficer.com

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I am not saying which is better than another because it all things being the same it really comes to the round being used (especially with today's type of ammo). Unless you are talking about a .380 compared to say a .50cal. Nothing wrong witha 9mm if you feel comfortable with it. I would personally rather have something with slightly more mass. I went with the .40 because of the option to shoot .357 rounds with no modifications and no extra parts. Plus a 15+1 in a .40 or .357 is nice to have especially when you have back up magazines. It is even nicer when you have the same gun in a compact and can run it identical.

As far as my nothing at all comment. I will tell you right now a .17hmr or a .22lr is better than nothing at all. As broomstick is better than nothing at all if you would like to get technical.

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Originally Posted by Bulldog

I am not saying which is better than another because it all things being the same it really comes to the round being used (especially with today's type of ammo). Unless you are talking about a .380 compared to say a .50cal. Nothing wrong witha 9mm if you feel comfortable with it. I would personally rather have something with slightly more mass. I went with the .40 because of the option to shoot .357 rounds with no modifications and no extra parts. Plus a 15+1 in a .40 or .357 is nice to have especially when you have back up magazines. It is even nicer when you have the same gun in a compact and can run it identical.

As far as my nothing at all comment. I will tell you right now a .17hmr or a .22lr is better than nothing at all. As broomstick is better than nothing at all if you would like to get technical.

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I knew by you're quote that you knew what you were talking about, just trying to add a little life to the conversation. As Nathan Bedford Forrest proved, "the first with the most" and of course where you put them wins the day, but even that's no given. As well as rookies debate hardware while experts debate tactics. If you haven't read the Peter Soulis story above it's quite an amazing encounter and hard to believe. 22 hits with a 40 in which 17 were center mass chest shots and the guy was still going with nothing more than slight traces of alcohol in his system.

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Originally Posted by denner

I knew by you're quote that you knew what you were talking about, just trying to add a little life to the conversation. As Nathan Bedford Forrest proved, "the first with the most" and of course where you put them wins the day, but even that's no given. As well as rookies debate hardware while experts debate tactics. If you haven't read the Peter Soulis story above it's quite an amazing encounter and hard to believe. 22 hits with a 40 in which 17 were center mass chest shots and the guy was still going with nothing more than slight traces of alcohol in his system.

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Let's face it. It wasn't the ammo. It was the fact it was a Glock :smt082. HAHAHA I had to say. Just wondering if the results would have been different if it would have been center of chest instead of center of mass. I was told center of mass was your collar bone to your waist line and the front of your side to the other front of your side. If that is so that is alot of area that wouldn't be fatal. A slight turn or the guy bent over can change the trajectory of a bullet. That will have something to do with it to. Also the man's reaction to pain. Whether the round was fatal or not I believe getting shot with anything is not going to feel good. I have heard from people that it feels like a beesting to a bad sunburn that bleeds. I don't know.

I did some reading on a website awhile back and the question was brought up between a .9mm and .40. The research the one guy did showed that the .40 had the ability to go the same fps as the .9mm but had more mass which alotted for more stopping power. Not much like 10% more (whatever that really means). I just always like a .40 because it seemed to be as fast as a 9mm with almost as much mass as a .45. I nice solid in between round which left a nice big. I have no problems with a .9mm and would have no reservations getting one for my wife. My uncle however thinks that the .9mm is a gangsta/thug round. Of course when the vast majority of the drug dealers and stuff where you live are arrested amnd caught with a 9mm I can see how that would play a part in your thinking.

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Originally Posted by Bulldog

Let's face it. It wasn't the ammo. It was the fact it was a Glock :smt082.

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:smt083

I think that the reason that most self defense shootings go badly is that it's not politically correct to openly study the most effective ways to kill a human being. I hunt deer and elk and am very successful at it and I know exactly where to hit them with the bow or firearm to put them down quickly and this year I got one shot kills with my firearms and a two shot kill with the bow ( the bull elk went down at 12 yards and I quickly hit him again with another arrow). If I was to hunt deer (kills coyotes just fine) which are similar in size to humans there is no way I'd attempt it with my carry gun because I know it would be marginally effective but it would be easier than killing a humanoid because deer are configured so I could easily hit both lungs which are flat and present big targets. You need to know exactly where all the vitals are and have a caliber that will do it quickly. Self defense rounds are pretty inadequate unless you shoot the "fatal T" and that's why we study shootings to death to try to glean some wisdom from them but find none.

"And I bet your boss didn't know one of his employees likes to insult his customers. Why don't you go get him so I can let him know." (smiling the whole time)

The guys in the shop where just showing they don't know what they are talking about. Its probably only in America you would get such a comment about 9mm. The 9mm verses .45 seams to be an american thing. The rest of the world knows that 9mm is more than adequate.

Up in Montana we call smaller calibers pea shooters. My dad has even called a 9mm a pea shooter. I had to correct him and tell him it's a bit bigger than a pea shooter. He relented that it was a "bit" bigger but not much. The way this is decided is by the price of ammo. If you can shoot it a lot then it's a pea shooter.

If I was in that situation I would have been telling them it's a little bigger than a bb gun, but it's still cheap for what I use it for.

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Originally Posted by manta

The guys in the shop where just showing they don't know what they are talking about. Its probably only in America you would get such a comment about 9mm. The 9mm verses .45 seams to be an american thing. The rest of the world knows that 9mm is more than adequate.

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That's what my Serbian friends say. The 9 works just fine. They were issued an AK-47 and a 9mm pistol and got into some nasty fights and survived. When they saw my 45s they laughed but they really like them. Guys are always into that bigger is probably better thing.

For what it's worth, here's an interesting read:9mm vs

When I came back to shooting after a layoff of many years, I started with a 9mm, and frankly I love the caliber, although I've gotten into .45 and .22lr in addition, more recently. When I was just starting, though, at least a half dozen self-appointed wits regaled me with their pirated lines about " a 9mm is just a .45 set to stun". After hearing that several times, I told one of them that 9mms had stunned a lot of people over the years, and it was amazing how many of them STAYED stunned. He just stared.

If I ran that shop, I wouldn't want my people treating customers like that.