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  1. #21
    cclaxton's Avatar
    cclaxton is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by recoilguy View Post
    I have not seen the Nickle finish 380.....I would be interested to see a pic of yours if you don't mind. I here the nickle finish is subject to flaking, and you need to avoid Hoppes style cleaners on it......true?

    RCG
    Once I can figure out how to get Picasa images embedded....do you know how? I have read all the help-threads on this board...no help.

    I have been using Hoppes to clean this gun with no problems. There is some flaking of the nickel....but minor IMHO. The chrome-plated trigger plunger has lost some chrome...again minor. But the real value is shooting this gun.....it has a fantasic trigger both DA and SA and is accurate and is easy on the hands. The plastic grips are cheap and I will probably replace them once I find some nice ones...I saw some really nice wood ones, but at $60 each, not ready to spend that kind of money....may get regular Thunder grips and modify them for CC model.

    Will get pics sometime soon.
    Good Luck and Be Safe!

  2. #22
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by recoilguy View Post
    KT's are 250 bucks for a reason. They work I am told, however they are a pain to shoot (literally), are unpleasant to look at, require some detail and TLC from the owner and are lose and wobbly in their fit and finish. But hey 250 bucks and you have a weapon to defend yourself. If all you have is 250 and you want to be armed, thank goodness for the good folks at KT.

    RCG
    They have more percieved recoil because they weigh 12.5 ounces instead of 20 ounces.

    Current production is supposed to be quite good. The gun's designer (I cannot remember his name) is held in high regard in the industry.

    Nutnfancy give the gun excellent reviews as a back up weapon.

    The low price has more to do with production efficiencies than poor quality.

    After tooling is paid for, how much do you suppose the molded frame costs to produce? I would estimate about $0.50 to $1.00 each.

    But the mold cost might be $100,000.00. So if you only sell 10,000 guns you need to add $100.00 to each frame to pay for the mold.

    But if you are like Kel-tec and you sell a low cost, high volume gun and sell 100,000 guns, then the cost of the frame is $1.00 for the mold, plus the molding cost as above.

    So a gun that sells in quantity at $270.00 (the cheapest that I've seen) is not half as good as a low quantity weapon at $540.00 each.

    And Glock, which is a high volume producer of very good weapons that are very high value because of the quantities produced, and are certainly at $600.00 not 1/4 the quality of a 1911 that costs $2,400.00.

  3. #23
    recoilguy's Avatar
    recoilguy is offline Senior Member
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    I was refering to the grips texturing not the recoil that hurts. To me it is like holding a cheese grater and then shooting it. The giant amount of recoil just activates the cheese grater effect on your hand.

    I too, believe the cost has to do with production efficiencies, which give it the loose, rattly, and sloppy fit and finish. Which in my world equates to poor quality. I don't believe I said that the cost was in direct proportion to the quality of the weapon. I did imply cheaper guns have less quality parts and workmanship, fitment, and eye appeal. I did not mean to imply a 1911 that goes for $2700 is 10X better then a KT. However I would spend the $2700 on Wilson Combat or a Ed Brown before I would spend 270 on a Kel Tec. I have no ill will for anyone who owns a KT, I am glad they have the opportunity to own a weapon. but if I won one in a raffle I would never take it out of the box before I traded it or gave it away. It seems silly that anyone would want me to change my mind on this Until KT makes a gun I would be proud to carry I won't.

    RCG

  4. #24
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    To a certain extent loosely fitted slides on an automatic will yield improved reliablity at the expense of accuracy.

    Everyone admires the tightly fitted components on the Rohrbaugh 9mm weapons. But in a real world with minimal sights, at defensive shooting distances I don't know that the accuracy that is lost due to loosely fitted slides is meaningful.

    Reliability is paramount and the Kel Tec has been reliable according to recent articles I've read.

    Is the Kel-Tec's grip surface significantly harder on your hands than a Gen4 Glock? I will have to shoot one and decide. But grip decals are cheap and a quick fix for that.

  5. #25
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    recoilguy is offline Senior Member
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    And there you have it.........................Rohraugh is widely admired in the gun community for the fine weapon he makes and his skill as a craftsam, the guy from KT is also widely admired in the gun community, for making an inexpensive weapon that works and his skill at making parts at the least possible price. We are looking at the 2 extremes here you realize.

    Reliablity is paramount and if as you say, KT is reliable then like I said before I am glad there are people who can arm themselves and protect their families for $270 bucks. I am also very glad I do not have to make the choice to either not be armed or buy a KT. I want more from a gun then ....it works, its light and they make holsters for it and it comes with a coupon for band aids. (Sorry that may have been out of line) Maybe I am too picky.

  6. #26
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by recoilguy View Post
    And there you have it.........................Rohraugh is widely admired in the gun community for the fine weapon he makes and his skill as a craftsam, the guy from KT is also widely admired in the gun community, for making an inexpensive weapon that works and his skill at making parts at the least possible price. We are looking at the 2 extremes here you realize.

    Reliablity is paramount and if as you say, KT is reliable then like I said before I am glad there are people who can arm themselves and protect their families for $270 bucks. I am also very glad I do not have to make the choice to either not be armed or buy a KT. I want more from a gun then ....it works, its light and they make holsters for it and it comes with a coupon for band aids. (Sorry that may have been out of line) Maybe I am too picky.
    I don't own a Kel-Tec. But I like it because of its weight (12-1/2 ounces). I just ordered a S & W 340 PD because of the light weight too.

    The other weapons seem nice, but not for pocket carry. They seem too heavy for that. For holster carry, I have other choices.

    So the Sig looks great (but at 20 ounces it is heavier than the Glock G27), and the Kimber Solo looks great but at 17 ounces it is nearly 50% heavier than the Kel-Tec.

    So if you are carrying on the belt, I agree with you. The heavier weapons are easier to shoot. But for pocket carry I think the weight is a disadvantage for those weapons.

  7. #27
    Tuefelhunden is offline Member
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    My 2 cents, if this is to be carried IWB instead of pocket carry I'd vote Walther PPS. Very thin, high quality, reliable and shootable. For pocket carry a Rohrbaugh, Kahr PM9 or perhaps a MK9 if you can handle the weight would be good bets. Not saying others recommended are not good but these are proven time tested winners. Good IWB double stack sub-compact 9mm's options abound (G26, XDSC, M&P, HK P2000SK, SR9c, etc.).

  8. #28
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    I got my PF9 last year. Youíre right, I think I could have shot the gun as is right out of the box without the extra TLC, but I had several days before I could shoot it and figured I could only make it better by doing a few things to it and personalizing it somewhat. I enjoy tinkering. The PF9 is not a range gun or a work of art, but IMHO it is a well-made and well-designed CCW. You get what you pay for usually and to me the PF9 could easily sell for more than they actually do. Price is not always a measure of quality. I polished my feed ramp. Maybe I did not have to, but it did not hurt to do it either, and hopefully it helped. I cleaned the gun thoroughly and greased and lubed as needed before ever shooting it. I do this with any new gun whether it needs it or not. There were some sharp edges on the plastic that I did not like, that I smoothed with some fine sandpaper where I gripped the pistol. I cold blued the barrel and waxed the blued slide and barrel to help with rust prevention. I installed a belt clip and the finger extension to the magazine. The finger extension was about right for a 2 finger grasp for me, but I trimmed some of the extension bottom away to allow my little finger to curl under the magazine more comfortably. I have always heard their customer service is superb, but Iíve never had to use it. There is also a Kel-Tec forum that can answer just about any question you can think of about the gun. The gun is on my belt now as I type this in a custom kydex IWB holster with a slot cut to allow the belt clip to remain on the gun. With this set up I can carry 3 different ways; IWB in the holster, OWB but under belt in the holster, or use the belt clip only in pocket or belt making it a very versatile setup.

  9. #29
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    The Diamond Back DB9 is now available. It reads like a nice piece. I have not shot one. It looks like a single stack Glock. I've seen the take-down pictures and it field strips like a Glock.

    Just 11 ounces (12.7 ounces with the magazine, empty).

    Just .80" thick.

    Looks pocketable.

    Has anyone shot one?

  10. #30
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    Diamondback is made by some ex-KT guys in a shop down the road from KT. The .380 that first came out with was plaqued with design flaws and wrought with poorly made parts. I looked at one and held it and it was a good looking little thing, however my LGS guy showed me reciepts for 5 of the 7 he sold going back for repair. Thats not the odds I want. I have not held or even seen the DB9 and imagine it is a decent looking weapon. Diamondback may have worked out the flaws and I hope they did. I also would be interested in some real and actual feedback on the DB( as well.

    I enjoy hearing a success story and I would like to hear these guys broke away started a company and made a good product. It is quite a gamble now a days to start any company let alone a gun one. I hope to hear good reviews.

    RCG

  11. #31
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by recoilguy View Post
    ...It is quite a gamble now a days to start any company let alone a gun one. I hope to hear good reviews.

    RCG
    Actually the carry concealed weapon business seems to be thriving (growing at least).

    The risk is in the injection mold itself. When Kimber comes out with a new gun all they are risking is the time it took to program their CNC milling machines. But when there is a plastic frame, that mold could cost as much as $100,000.00 (for a multi-cavity mold; less for a single cavity mold).

  12. #32
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    I can't say enough positive things about my Ruger LC9 in 9mm.



    I usually carry on my hip.

    Sig Sauer P239



    But when I go somewhere and need a pocket gun ... it's my Ruger LC9 that gets the nod.

    Real good sights on it. Long but smooth trigger pull.

    If you practice with it ... it's real accurate to shoot.


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