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  1. #1
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    Good holsters, bad illustrations

    This company has a reputation for making very good quality holsters. But the illustration for the pocket holster (which they call a "wallet") is not good.

    See: Andrews Custom Leather

    Draw the gun with your hand in this position and at one point during the draw you will have the barrel of the gun pointed at your own back. Not good.

    The gun should reside in the holster in the mirror image position. This requires that you turn your hand to grab the gun, but at no point will the gun be pointed at yourself.

    In practicing your draw this might not be an issue, but in a high-stress situation where you are in a shoot/no shoot decision process this may be a serious issue. It is better to avoid this entirely.

    I've seen some small of the back holsters that have the butt down and they also have you point the barrel of the gun at your own back. Not good either.

    Illustration: Andrews Custom Leather (Click "wallet")

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  3. #2
    MLB's Avatar
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    MLB is offline Supporting Member
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    And get that finger out of the triggerguard!

  4. #3
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MLB View Post
    And get that finger out of the triggerguard!
    Yes, an excellent chance for a butt-shot. (Small caliber butt shot, but probably not the best outcome for a rapid-draw situation.)

    I had a friend that carried in a S.O.B. holster. But he carried with the butt down. So that every time he drew the weapon at one point he had the barrel of the gun aimed right at the middle of his back. No amount of warning would convince him to change. Nothing bad ever happened, but it is just as easy to practice with the butt facing up and not having the weapon ever point at your body.

    I designed and made a back pocket holster for my Beretta .25 that carried the gun butt down in the pocket, barrel up. You drew the weapon by placing your trigger finger in the trigger guard. As you pulled the gun up it automatically flipped the weapon right into your grip. It was a single action only and I carried it hammer down over a live round, so there was no chance of an accidental discharge. It was much faster than the other types to bring the weapon to ready. It was safer too. Especially when seated (though less safe for the people sitting behind you), as the barrel would be pointed back and away from your body (as opposed to aiming at the main artery in your leg). I could not get anyone interested in producing it though.

    DeSantis had a shoot-through wallet which was a little worse than terrible (it was hard to hold and it dropped the magazine from the gun so you basically had a single shot .25 for defense). Wallet and pocket holsters as we know them today did not exist in 1980s.

  5. #4
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    aryfrosty is offline Junior Member
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    Sam Andrews LEather

    Not sure if any of you folks have ever handled or used any of Sam's work...
    If you ever do I believe that you will have only good opinions about his gear. I have several of his and another ordered that I hope to see soon. The new one, and one of the older ones is what Sam calls a "Carjacker Crossdraw". It is one of the best made holsters I have ever used, and I have been "using" for 44 years. I have had the best and worst of Bianchi, Berns-Martin, Safariland, Bucheimer, Smith and Wesson, Jackass...now Galco, Kenny Null and have bought only Andrews and Galco, except for a Safariland for my P7, for several years. Years back Sam made one called a "MOB Twist" which placed the gun in leather behind your back with the grip to the right and down. It was one of the most comfortable carries I could find, I never had qualms about it because as I drew the gun the muzzle was pointing straight down behind me and did not sweep my body at all. I have seen some SOB holsters that I didn't think were very good. That, however, became moot before I retired when the Department's "safety pukes" decided that SOB carry was dangerous and could possibly damage the wearer's spine if he fell onto his back. I always harken back to a former Texas Ranger who was asked about his 1911 being cocked and locked and "wasn't that dangerous?" His reported reply was, "Hell, I wouldn't carry the SOB if it wasn't dangerous!" To shut my wandering up please let me just say, Sam Andrews has holsters and prices that are in the top 1% of carry gear I have ever seen. I gladly buy from him. I don't, however, work for him, know him personally or get anything from him if I speak up for him. I just do that because I like his leatherwork. Regards; Al Yates. aryfrosty@msn.com

  6. #5
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packard View Post
    ...Wallet and pocket holsters as we know them today did not exist in 1980s.
    Packard, you really should not make definitive statements on subjects about which you know nothing.

    From about 1970 through 1990, I was making, advertising, and selling—including to LAPD, FBI, and BATF field agents—a very sophisticated wallet holster. I sold lots of them.
    I was not the only one making and selling wallet holsters, either. There were at least two big-time manufacturers, and at least three of us small-shop craftsmen.

    Even then, it was not a new idea.

    But wait. There's more.
    The Andrews Leather illustration shows a valid way of using a wallet-holster-like device, based upon the assumption that the user is an experienced a pistol user. (But you are perfectly correct about the model's finger-on-the-trigger stupidity.)
    The wallet holster is not a tool for beginners. Its user must already know and practice all of the thoughtful safety prescriptions first.
    Further, if we were to govern ourselves by the "rule" you have laid down, you would also have to eliminate shoulder holsters, "appendix carry" holsters, and cross-draw holsters. All of them cause the muzzle of a pistol being presented to cross "valuable territory," of either the presenter or of someone else nearby.
    Much further, the real problem with SOB holsters is not the "valuable territory" the pistol's muzzle crosses (regardless of which way it's worn, by the way), but rather that a pistol at the small of the back will cause horrific spinal injuries, should the wearer happen to fall backwards upon it.

    You wrote that you designed and built a pocket holster, the draw from which was accomplished by sticking your finger into the pistol's trigger-guard.
    Now, that breaks several very important safety considerations, right there. And that's even before discussing the muzzle-up mode of carry you're advocating.
    You carry this pistol in "Condition Two," thinking that accidentally hitting its trigger will not cause a discharge. But what if the pistol's slide snags on something? As you pull it up, you would be cocking its hammer. And, according to you, its safety is off. (Yes, you wouldn't notice this happening, in the heat of the moment.)
    Your design is a recipe for disaster!

    You are giving other inexperienced shooters very bad information.
    Please don't.

  7. #6
    VAMarine's Avatar
    VAMarine is online now Administrator
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    With every holster there's a way to do it wrong, I've seen plenty of individuals point their muzzle at their torso when reholstering a strong side OWB. The cavalry draw (palm out) when done correctly does not sweep the body, you can't blame someones bad technique on a piece of gear.

    As for pocket holsters, they've been around for years, dad carried one for his backup gun while on duty in the 70s-80s.

    I designed and made a back pocket holster for my Beretta .25 that carried the gun butt down in the pocket, barrel up. You drew the weapon by placing your trigger finger in the trigger guard. As you pulled the gun up it automatically flipped the weapon right into your grip. It was a single action only and I carried it hammer down over a live round, so there was no chance of an accidental discharge. It was much faster than the other types to bring the weapon to ready. It was safer too. Especially when seated (though less safe for the people sitting behind you), as the barrel would be pointed back and away from your body (as opposed to aiming at the main artery in your leg). I could not get anyone interested in producing it though.
    I'm not surprised, just as you're concerned about the direction of a cavalry draw I can see a lot of people being concerned about that method of carry.

    When it comes to deeper concealment rigs, there are tradeoffs, a more complicated draw stroke and the muzzle being pointed at vitals appear to be those trade-offs.

  8. #7
    aryfrosty's Avatar
    aryfrosty is offline Junior Member
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    Differing carry mechanisms

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    Packard, you really should not make definitive statements on subjects about which you know nothing.

    From about 1970 through 1990, I was making, advertising, and selling—including to LAPD, FBI, and BATF field agents—a very sophisticated wallet holster. I sold lots of them.
    I was not the only one making and selling wallet holsters, either. There were at least two big-time manufacturers, and at least three of us small-shop craftsmen.

    Even then, it was not a new idea.

    But wait. There's more.
    The Andrews Leather illustration shows a valid way of using a wallet-holster-like device, based upon the assumption that the user is an experienced a pistol user. (But you are perfectly correct about the model's finger-on-the-trigger stupidity.)
    The wallet holster is not a tool for beginners. Its user must already know and practice all of the thoughtful safety prescriptions...

    You are giving other inexperienced shooters very bad information.
    Please don't.
    Right you are on that. I was pocket carrying in 1967 for my uncle, who didn't believe in wasting leather on a 2" revolver. Original Bodyguards were first on the list. Out of my pocket I tried several wallet style holsters and didn't care for any of them. Bob Mika makes a nice "pocket" style that I like. It has a "sticky"band around the body of the holster to grip the pocket...
    I expect I know all sorts of horror stories about carry/draw/use mess ups, but everybody else does too. I carried a NAA .22 hung around my neck on a chain. I taped a Colt Jr. .25 to my inner arm. Mostly I stick to quality holsters and use them correctly, but once in a while something will happen to the plan? (Such as..."No plan survives contact with the enemy"). Regardsa to al, Al.

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