Originally Posted by Eric G.

Ive been researching a few handguns and im stuck between the SIG SAUER P220, GLOCK 21, HK USP and the SPRINGFIELD XD .45. I was hoping i could get some insight and opinions from from you guys or girls it dont matter, lol. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

The Glock 21 comes in a couple different variants, so when you check them out make sure to pay attention to what model(s) you're looking at. I would recommend the G21SF with the Glock rail IF you go the G21 route. The original grip diameter of the G21 leaves lots of room for improvement = the G21 SF. As for the rails, the G21 with the picatinny rail is harder to find holsters for.

Regarding the Sig 220, that's totally different animal than the others you are looking at. All the others are polymer framed, higher capacity, striker fired guns. What I like the 220 and the extra heft of the steel frame helps mitigate felt recoil which is bonus, but it only holds 8+1. If you go the Sig 220 route, there's even more choices to be made as Sig has about 20 different "packages" available to choose from. I have a G21SF and had a 220, I preferred the way the 220 shot compared to the G21SF.

Regarding the HK, you should also be looking at the HK45, kind of like a USP but has some nice added features that the USP does not have. I don't know why but the USP has always felt like a toy to me...

The HK45 only holds 10, while the USP holds 12 so it would be middle of the capacity spectrum of what you're looking at but as it's still more than a 220 I don't think it should be an issue to you.

If I were to buy another polymer .45, it would probably be the XDM45 or the HK45. The only reason I would opt for the XDM over the XD is that I all read have a holster that will accommodate the XDM45.

The Sig doesn't really do anything for me that the 1911 doesn't. Although I had a SAO model. If I were on the market for a single stack, DA/SA or DAO .45 the 220 would be it.


What role is this gun to play? The G21 is a little thick in the slide for IWB carry while the 220 is relatively slim and carried well for me. This is all subjective to body & holster type of course.

What are your need as far as weight vs. capacity? How do you feel about safeties? Pending on what variant USP or Sig 220 there are safeties to consider and one thing I really hate about the XD line is that in order to cycle the slide the grip safety must be pressed in.

All the guns you listed are great guns, the HK USP and Sig 220 have great reputations for reliability as well as the Glock, the XDM is newer on the block but Springfield has good rep as well.

What you want/need the weapon to do will steer my recommendations in a big way.

If you want something for formal target shooting, the SIG (in the steel-framed single-action-only version with a nice trigger job) is the way to go.

For a range blaster/toy, any of them will do. Pick the one you like best based on looks/feel.

For more serious uses, the field narrows quickly. Unless required by administrative policy or regulations, I simply will not recommend a DA/SA (long/heavy double-action for the first shot, shorter/lighter single-action for all subsequent shots) autoloader any longer. I no longer believe there is any objective reason to select a DA/SA auto over any of the higher quality weapons that have a single trigger pull action/weight. Whether it is a true Single Action, a similar striker-fired action like Glock's Safe Action, a Double-Action-Only long-pull weapon, or something in-between, there is no longer any practical reason to struggle to learn and execute two different trigger pull weights/lengths/feels. Based on this, the conventional SIG and HK DA/SA autos are out of the running, in my book.

I once would have chosen the .45 XD over any Glock in the same caliber, based solely on the size/circumference of the grip frame, despite otherwise being a rather strong advocate of Glocks, in general. Once I laid hands on a G21SF with it's improved ergonomics, I no longer have to recommend against the reliable and easy-to-use Glock in .45 ACP for any reason. In its G21SF form, it is slightly smaller than the largest of the XDs in .45, so if concealed carry is a possibility, then the Glock should be your choice. For open carry only, then the XD is still in the running, but I personally can't see anything that would push me to recommend it over the Glock.

Originally Posted by Eric G.

Ive been researching a few handguns and im stuck between the SIG SAUER P220, GLOCK 21, HK USP and the SPRINGFIELD XD .45. I was hoping i could get some insight and opinions from from you guys or girls it dont matter, lol. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I'm starting to hear of some long term issues with the XD and that Sig Sauer has gone downhill in the quality dept..

Glocks are dead reliable and aftermarket parts are plentiful BUT nothing else on your list can match an HK USP or P2000, not only is it dead reliable but it looks great and will have much superior re-sale value. The best thing to do is to shoot them all and decide.

Glock is a good gun...not a big fan but I wouldn't be mad if I was to have that as an only option.

The hk usp. If you like it then I'm glad because I hated mine. My xd .45 was hands down better. I would even pick my old glock 30sf over the usp. They make good stuff don't get me wrong but personally out of what you mentioned the h&k would be last on my list.

I don't know about high resale value I bought mine with 200 rounds throguh it. Came with 2 holsters, 3 mags,trijicon night sights and 300 rounds of ammo for $500. Friend of mine has $600 and some odd dollars in 2of them 1 being new in box.

I like my m&p better than the xd. I like the xd better than the glock. And I would say the glock edges over the h&k. Only because for me the glock was lighter and was definitely more accurate.

As said before, shooting them all is going to be your best determinate. That'll show you what fits your hands best, what you shoot best. In my opinion I like the Glock's over the XD's, but I also don't any real experiences with the Sig and HK. I personally like the looks of both, but I also prefer SA over SA/DA! Good luck on your hunt! Let us know what you wind up deciding on!

Originally Posted by Brevard13

Glock is a good gun...not a big fan but I wouldn't be mad if I was to have that as an only option.

The hk usp. If you like it then I'm glad because I hated mine. My xd .45 was hands down better. I would even pick my old glock 30sf over the usp. They make good stuff don't get me wrong but personally out of what you mentioned the h&k would be last on my list.

I don't know about high resale value I bought mine with 200 rounds throguh it. Came with 2 holsters, 3 mags,trijicon night sights and 300 rounds of ammo for $500. Friend of mine has $600 and some odd dollars in 2of them 1 being new in box.

I like my m&p better than the xd. I like the xd better than the glock. And I would say the glock edges over the h&k. Only because for me the glock was lighter and was definitely more accurate.

Wow, that must have been one motivated seller to let all of that go for 500, also to compare the factory accuracy of a Glock over an HK is ridiculous, while Glock is reliable it is known as the AK47 of handguns, it will shoot anything but isn't the most accurate. Not to mention that Glocks are butt ugly, if you're going to own something why not something that is aesthetically pleasing, but I will agree that the M&P is up and coming and seems great, just doesn't have that "German" look and feel.

Originally Posted by Brevard13

Glock is a good gun...not a big fan but I wouldn't be mad if I was to have that as an only option.

The hk usp. If you like it then I'm glad because I hated mine. My xd .45 was hands down better. I would even pick my old glock 30sf over the usp. They make good stuff don't get me wrong but personally out of what you mentioned the h&k would be last on my list.

I don't know about high resale value I bought mine with 200 rounds throguh it. Came with 2 holsters, 3 mags,trijicon night sights and 300 rounds of ammo for $500. Friend of mine has $600 and some odd dollars in 2of them 1 being new in box.

I like my m&p better than the xd. I like the xd better than the glock. And I would say the glock edges over the h&k. Only because for me the glock was lighter and was definitely more accurate.

YouTube - H&K Compared to Glock: Battle of the Brands

Originally Posted by Sniper6473

Wow, that must have been one motivated seller to let all of that go for 500, also to compare the factory accuracy of a Glock over an HK is ridiculous, while Glock is reliable it is known as the AK47 of handguns, it will shoot anything but isn't the most accurate. Not to mention that Glocks are butt ugly, if you're going to own something why not something that is aesthetically pleasing, but I will agree that the M&P is up and coming and seems great, just doesn't have that "German" look and feel.

Glocks inaccurate? Bullpucky. I have a few Glock 9mms that will keep five shots under two inches at 25 yards quite regularly, even in my less-than-expert hands; some folks have paid custom gunsmiths a lot of money to get other brands of autoloaders to shoot this well. Heck, I shot a local Elmer Keith Long Range pistol match with one of my Glocks; 4 steel IDPA silhouettes, one each at 50, 100, 150, and 200 yards. I went 5/5 at 50 and 100, 4/5 at 150, and hit 3 out of 5 at 200 yards, with my stock (unmodified, except for sights) Glock 34 9mm and factory ammo. Won the match outright, over a gaggle of guys with flat-shooting long-barreled S&W magnums, Dan Wesson SuperMags, Ruger Super Blackhawks and Redhawks, etc. I don't see many (any?) HK-armed shooters in the winner's circle at any of the competitions I attend (IDPA, USPSA, Bowling Pin shoots, etc.). You'd think refined, accurate handguns like HKs would be seen winning at least a few competitions occasionally.

I'm sure some Glocks don't do very well with certain loads, but the vast majority of them shoot very well indeed, once you find the load(s) they like AND learn to shoot them.

Originally Posted by Sniper6473

YouTube - H&K Compared to Glock: Battle of the Brands

This like a Glock marketing/sales video! About the only nice things the guy has to say about HKs is: they are expensive, exotic, and have nice triggers. He mentions HK accuracy, but never quantifies it. Then he says EVERYONE should own at least one Glock!

Originally Posted by Sniper6473

I'm starting to hear of some long term issues with the XD and that Sig Sauer has gone downhill in the quality dept..

Could you expand on this statement?

I know of no issues, long term or short, with any of the XD models, and other than the Mosquito, the Sigs all still have good reputations in the circles I run in.

Originally Posted by DJ Niner

This like a Glock marketing/sales video! About the only nice things the guy has to say about HKs is: they are expensive, exotic, and have nice triggers. He mentions HK accuracy, but never quantifies it. Then he says EVERYONE should own at least one Glock!

I've never stated that Glocks weren't well built weapons, my first pistol was a Glock 19. The one thing that you are forgetting is that some people aren't satisfied with just great function they want an athestically pleasing product. Why did I spend 61K on my BMW M3 when I could have purchased a very nice Toyota Camry for well under 30K, not to mention the Toyota requires less maintenance and that service and parts will be much cheaper, why would I spend the extra when the Toyota would have taken me from point A to point B with less hassle than my M3. Why did I spend 1200 dollars on my Omega watch, when I knew that my 200 dollar Seiko would keep better time.

I prefer the function of having a De-Cocker and Safety, I prefer that "Overbuilt and Over Engineered" German feel and yes If I am going to own a gun, I want to like the way it looks. But then again i'm not the type who has every liked "Cookie Cutter" anything.

Originally Posted by Bisley

Could you expand on this statement?

I know of no issues, long term or short, with any of the XD models, and other than the Mosquito, the Sigs all still have good reputations in the circles I run in.

SIG 250C9B P250 9MM CMPT BL $361.00 SHIPS FREE

No HK pistol has EVER flopped so bad that it sells brand new for 361.00 including shipping to FFL...



ATF has rejected the Sig P250 as Unreliable in its new agent handgun evaluation
The ATF currently has a request for proposal ( RFP ) to switch to a new handgun for all of its agents. Sig Sauer submitted their new P250 pistol for this competition, but it was eliminated by the ATF from the competition after completion of the the first two stages of testing. Of the guns tested, only pistols from Glock and Smith & Wesson went forward to the stage 3 tests.

Sig Sauer filed an appeal with the ATF about the Sig P250 being eliminated early from the testing. However, the ATF has now rejected their appeal, and only S&W and Glock are going to the final evaluation stage.

In rejecting the Sig Sauer appeal, the ATF noted the following from their agent test results:

"11 of the 20 test shooters experienced stoppages with Sig Sauer's handguns--in some cases, as many as 10 stoppages."

The ATF simply found the Sig P250 to be too unreliable for the needs of their agency. If you want to read the full report denying Sig Sauer's appeal, you can do so here:
U.S. GAO - B-402339.3, Sig Sauer, Inc., July 23, 2010


Sig Quality issues,
Good Lord...What happened to Sig Sauer? - Page 3 - TheFiringLine Forums

Originally Posted by Sniper6473

I've never stated that Glocks weren't well built weapons, my first pistol was a Glock 19. The one thing that you are forgetting is that some people aren't satisfied with just great function they want an athestically pleasing product. Why did I spend 61K on my BMW M3 when I could have purchased a very nice Toyota Camry for well under 30K, not to mention the Toyota requires less maintenance and that service and parts will be much cheaper, why would I spend the extra when the Toyota would have taken me from point A to point B with less hassle than my M3. Why did I spend 1200 dollars on my Omega watch, when I knew that my 200 dollar Seiko would keep better time.

I prefer the function of having a De-Cocker and Safety, I prefer that "Overbuilt and Over Engineered" German feel and yes If I am going to own a gun, I want to like the way it looks. But then again i'm not the type who has every liked "Cookie Cutter" anything.

Well, I certainly can't intelligently argue issues of taste and personal preference; I only took exception to your characterization of Glocks as generally inaccurate, and provided a few examples to support my point. I definitely lean toward the "guns are tools" point of view, although I count myself as lucky to have seen some absolutely breathtaking examples of the custom gunmaker's art, in my lifetime. And even the most rabid Glock fan will admit they are rarely mistaken for anything remotely aesthetically pleasing.

However, there is a certain beauty in near-perfection of function (including high accuracy), ease of use, and simplicity of design; it is here that Glocks can be said to be real "lookers", and that beauty is far more than skin-deep. If I could be allowed to paraphrase Col. Cooper, "The purpose of shooting (and therefore guns) is hitting." Until HKs regularly show up as winners in the top tiers of the practical/tactical/action shooting sports (heck, ANY shooting sport), AND until the company gets with the program to provide customers with parts and user-friendly technical support, I'll probably continue to consider them solidly-engineered, well-made, usually accurate, but vastly overpriced showpieces -- not serious defensive or competition tools.

Just one man's opinion, of course. I do kinda like my friend's HK P7...

Originally Posted by Sniper6473

SIG 250C9B P250 9MM CMPT BL $361.00 SHIPS FREE

No HK pistol has EVER flopped so bad that it sells brand new for 361.00 including shipping to FFL...



ATF has rejected the Sig P250 as Unreliable in its new agent handgun evaluation
The ATF currently has a request for proposal ( RFP ) to switch to a new handgun for all of its agents. Sig Sauer submitted their new P250 pistol for this competition, but it was eliminated by the ATF from the competition after completion of the the first two stages of testing. Of the guns tested, only pistols from Glock and Smith & Wesson went forward to the stage 3 tests.

Sig Sauer filed an appeal with the ATF about the Sig P250 being eliminated early from the testing. However, the ATF has now rejected their appeal, and only S&W and Glock are going to the final evaluation stage.

In rejecting the Sig Sauer appeal, the ATF noted the following from their agent test results:

"11 of the 20 test shooters experienced stoppages with Sig Sauer's handguns--in some cases, as many as 10 stoppages."

The ATF simply found the Sig P250 to be too unreliable for the needs of their agency. If you want to read the full report denying Sig Sauer's appeal, you can do so here:
U.S. GAO - B-402339.3, Sig Sauer, Inc., July 23, 2010


Sig Quality issues,
Good Lord...What happened to Sig Sauer? - Page 3 - TheFiringLine Forums

And the XD?

Originally Posted by DJ Niner

Well, I certainly can't intelligently argue issues of taste and personal preference; I only took exception to your characterization of Glocks as generally inaccurate, and provided a few examples to support my point. I definitely lean toward the "guns are tools" point of view, although I count myself as lucky to have seen some absolutely breathtaking examples of the custom gunmaker's art, in my lifetime. And even the most rabid Glock fan will admit they are rarely mistaken for anything remotely aesthetically pleasing.

However, there is a certain beauty in near-perfection of function (including high accuracy), ease of use, and simplicity of design; it is here that Glocks can be said to be real "lookers", and that beauty is far more than skin-deep. If I could be allowed to paraphrase Col. Cooper, "The purpose of shooting (and therefore guns) is hitting." Until HKs regularly show up as winners in the top tiers of the practical/tactical/action shooting sports (heck, ANY shooting sport), AND until the company gets with the program to provide customers with parts and user-friendly technical support, I'll probably continue to consider them solidly-engineered, well-made, usually accurate, but vastly overpriced showpieces -- not serious defensive or competition tools.

Just one man's opinion, of course. I do kinda like my friend's HK P7...

You just can't really compare HK and Glock as companies, Glock has been mainly focused on Law Enforcement and civilian markets, HK is almost purely military focused, civilian sales are almost an afterthought.

Also Glock is a handgun maker, HK is a weapon systems maker, they are very different beasts. With HK you are also buying the company history...

First Polymer Pistol 1970
YouTube - H&K VP70M

First to use Polygonal rifling in an autopistol

YouTube - Heckler & Koch - Die Waffenschmiede

HK 416 is now being deployed
YouTube - HK (Heckler & Koch) versus Colt

H&K Special Cased MP5/40mm Grenade Pistol
YouTube - H&K Special Cased MP5/40mm Grenade Pistol

XM25 Being deployed right now, HK and ATK development
YouTube - XM25, military super weapon
YouTube - XM25 - The Deadliest Army Weapon In Action


Not to mention that all 3 founders of H&K worked as engineers for various arms makers

Edmund Heckler was one of the chief engineers at Haenel, maker of the Sturmgewehr 44 Rifle, first assault rifle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmgewehr_44


HK basically was what was left over from Mauser after WW2, so there is much history. I just love my German cars and German guns.

Originally Posted by Sniper6473

I just love my German cars and German guns.

Exactly. You love your German cars and German guns...to the exclusion of all others. That is perfectly fine, but it effectively disqualifies you from the ranks of those who are offering objective opinions.

HK's are great, but the average shooter can shoot any one of a couple dozen other pistols just as well, and, unless he is also a die-hard HK loyalist, with plenty of disposable income, he can derive just as much pleasure from a $400 pistol.

Originally Posted by Bisley

Exactly. You love your German cars and German guns...to the exclusion of all others. That is perfectly fine, but it effectively disqualifies you from the ranks of those who are offering objective opinions.

HK's are great, but the average shooter can shoot any one of a couple dozen other pistols just as well, and, unless he is also a die-hard HK loyalist, with plenty of disposable income, he can derive just as much pleasure from a $400 pistol.

I don't say to the exclusion to all others, I love my Wilson Combat Sentinel, it is a wonderful handmade American 1911, it was a gift from my father so it holds extra value.

HK is my favorite factory polymer pistol, not just because i'ts German, but I prefer the SA/DA, Decocker and Safety system.

You do need to rent or borrow and shoot each one of them, as they are different guns.

That said, I bought a Sig Sauer P220 Elite Stainless in .45 cal.



I like the way this gun looks / feels / shoots.

I disagree that Sig quality has gone down hill. JMHO

Excellent points made already. I don't know that I have anything to add other than comment on the aesthetics issue discussed- particurly those involving the Glocks. I work in law enforcement so my bias is going to lean a bit toward function. Beauty is such a subjective issue and one I rarely consider in deciding what weapon to carry. I myself think the Glocks are aesthetically awesome. But then, I think spartan, brutally straightforward functionality is beautiful. When I see engraved, gold-plated or just plain fancy guns, I appreciate their looks and covet them as any gun-lover would. I like LOOKING at them. But then, I see the blocky, black polymer beast that is the Glock and I experience a sense of respect and awe of a dead-serious WEAPON. There's a couple of dozen handguns that I would LOVE to own, many of them drop-dead gorgeous pieces of gunsmithing art. The Sig Sauer pictured in the previous post is one of them. But when choosing one to CARRY and trust my life with, I pick the Glock over any of them.

Originally Posted by Sniper6473

SIG 250C9B P250 9MM CMPT BL $361.00 SHIPS FREE

No HK pistol has EVER flopped so bad that it sells brand new for 361.00 including shipping to FFL...



ATF has rejected the Sig P250 as Unreliable in its new agent handgun evaluation
The ATF currently has a request for proposal ( RFP ) to switch to a new handgun for all of its agents. Sig Sauer submitted their new P250 pistol for this competition, but it was eliminated by the ATF from the competition after completion of the the first two stages of testing. Of the guns tested, only pistols from Glock and Smith & Wesson went forward to the stage 3 tests.

Sig Sauer filed an appeal with the ATF about the Sig P250 being eliminated early from the testing. However, the ATF has now rejected their appeal, and only S&W and Glock are going to the final evaluation stage.

In rejecting the Sig Sauer appeal, the ATF noted the following from their agent test results:

"11 of the 20 test shooters experienced stoppages with Sig Sauer's handguns--in some cases, as many as 10 stoppages."

The ATF simply found the Sig P250 to be too unreliable for the needs of their agency. If you want to read the full report denying Sig Sauer's appeal, you can do so here:
U.S. GAO - B-402339.3, Sig Sauer, Inc., July 23, 2010


Sig Quality issues,
Good Lord...What happened to Sig Sauer? - Page 3 - TheFiringLine Forums

New concepts have a hard tim flying. The Sig 250 does not have a conventional frame and the serial numbers are attached to stampings and not to forgings. It seems very strange.

I will give an example to make my point. Thirty + years ago a high quality baby carriage came from Italy, had chrome all over and white lacquer on the carriage. They weighed 60 + pounds in some cases.

Comes along the folding carriage. Cheaper, lighter and more convenient. Didn't sell for 5 years. Everyone looking at it said, "I'm not having my baby ride in that junk". Well, we all know how that played out. How many $1,000.00 to $2,000.00 Italian baby carriages have you seen in the last few years?

I think Sig is trying to get the 250 in as many hands as possible to get the word of mouth support that a new idea requires. I believe it is a good gun.

I would just quickly point out that all of the talk about Sig Sauer's quality issues is revolving around the P250 but he actually asked about the P220 which I think is a damn fine pistol and of the 4 listed in his original post would be my 1st choice

Just my $0.02
Cheers

Personally, i would say go with the sig 220 or the HK. I am a huge sig fan and truly believe that they are second to none in the handgun world. The ergonomics are unmatched IMO and the reliability is outstanding. I have personally fired my sig for 1000 plus rounds without cleaning on several occasions and not had a single misfire. the only malfunction that the gun has ever suffered due to lack of cleaning (or really for any reason) was that when it started to get really dirty, the slide wouldnt lock to the rear after the last round had been fired. Also, the accuracy is great and i find it to be very easy to shoot well. Granted they are expensive, but i think its worth it. Sig would be my absolute first choice. However, H&K also makes nice guns and they're one of the few guns on the same level as sig. The only difference for me is that the sig ergonomics work better for me and i generally like the look better. but other than that H&K is a close second.

You don't have to spend too much time on the SIG Forum to realize that SIG often has quality control issues - Especially on the guns slated for civilian sales.

Personally, I don't like H&K pistols. The backstraps are too uncomfortable for my aging hands to hang onto much past 150-200 rounds. I carry a 3rd generation Glock Model 21. I find the wide backstrap to be very comfortable and easier to aim than many other pistols I own. (And, then, there's the fact that H&K's are grossly overpriced.)

By the way, is Glock still making that Picatinny rail, 'abortion thing' they produced for the Army tests awhile ago? I thought they stopped.

I'm the only pistolero in my rather highfalutin circle of pistol shooting friends who carries a crummy plastic Glock. Everybody else uses either an expensive Kimber or Springfield. (Me and my pedestrian black Glock really look like Hell standing next to these guys with their elegant 45's.)

However the $1,200 to $1,500 dollar difference in price doesn't allow them to shoot any better than I do; and I, usually, fire a lot faster than the rest of our group. A very tight steel frame and a really high purchase price don't mean one pistol's going to be more accurate than another.

I know a lot of guys who do quite well with their Austrian, 'wonder pistols'. Neither do I care for the high bore axis on XD anythings. I think you need to go shooting with a few other people and try their guns. Is there a public range near you where you could rent a few pistols?