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  1. #1
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    Carry concealed pistol competitions

    There are many forms of pistol competitions, but they all seem to favor a big weapon with a long sight radius (and mostly single action).

    So is there a pistol competition for carry conealed type weapons only? Say under 6" overall length, under 5" height and perhaps under 30 ounces?

    I think this would be an interesting sort of competition. I've never seen one. Does one exist?

  2. #2
    VAMarine's Avatar
    VAMarine is online now Administrator
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    In IDPA you can compete with smaller guns as long as it fits in the "IDPA box" and is not OVER weight limits etc and is of the appropriate caliber it's OK. You don't have to use a large gun.

    Some local IDPA clubs have Back Up Gun (BUG) matches on occasion where only small guns are allowed.

    I've often seen people shoot at regular matches with Glock 26s, mid-size Kahrs and 3" 1911s.

    I don't think there's a genre or discipline of shooting sports dedicated to compact guns though.

  3. #3
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    I think it is an idea whose time has come. CCW are the fastest growing segment in the handgun market today. There should be a CCW-specific competition.

  4. #4
    SigZagger's Avatar
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    I agree. I shoot IDPA primarily using my upgraded Tactical XD9, "game gun". I'd never consider carrying it due to it's size (5" barrel). My CC guns are small compact models. I've thought (daydreamed) about starting such a shooting competition for compact handguns only. But, how in the world does one get such an event started? Money needed, locations, manpower, insurance, etc. The best you could do is shoot IDPA using your small handgun, which is done often by some. You wouldn't want to try USPSA with a small, low round count handgun, so currently IDPA is your best choice.

  5. #5
    DJ Niner's Avatar
    DJ Niner is offline HGF Forum Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packard View Post
    There are many forms of pistol competitions, but they all seem to favor a big weapon with a long sight radius (and mostly single action).

    So is there a pistol competition for carry conealed type weapons only? Say under 6" overall length, under 5" height and perhaps under 30 ounces?

    I think this would be an interesting sort of competition. I've never seen one. Does one exist?
    Quote Originally Posted by Packard View Post
    I think it is an idea whose time has come. CCW are the fastest growing segment in the handgun market today. There should be a CCW-specific competition.
    Although I'd like to think it would work, history indicates otherwise. Both IPSC/USPSA and IDPA were started with the concept of competing with realistic defensive weapons. After a true "arms race" developed in IPSC/USPSA (you couldn't really be competitive unless you were using the latest/greatest and most expensive custom guns and gear), some of the early organizers who warned about this outcome, broke off and started IDPA. Despite a very concerted attempt to limit it to true defensive weapons, gear, and course design (even using somewhat subjective rules like "failure to do right"), it has still devolved for many folks into a "game" that can only be played with special tuned guns and higher-cost gear.

    In my opinion, IDPA shooters basically fall into two groups; I call them Realists and Gamers. The Realists use Inside Waist Band (IWB) or other true concealment holsters and unmodified or lightly (carry modified) guns, and use the matches as a way to practice with their carry guns/gear. The Gamers are generally out to win matches, and will use any advantage they can to gain a higher score. After a few close losses to a Gamer, or their third consecutive 5th place finish to folks not using "real" concealment gear, sometimes a Realist will start to make noises about "If I'd only shaved a few seconds off each stage, I could have won; maybe I'll try that new holster...", and after traveling a little further down that road, a new Gamer is born. Some Realists hold true, but many do not. Realists can morph into Gamers, but the opposite is rarely seen (only one I can think of is the guy who lost almost all of his guns in a divorce settlement). Eventually, the Gamers take over and the Realists stop showing up (they usually find a nearby private range and try to stage their own "more realistic" matches, and the cycle repeats all over again).

    Course design can accelerate this morphing, if the courses slide into unrealistic (usually called "more interesting" or "more action-oriented") stages.

    If you haven't ever read the IDPA rule book, take a few minutes to browse through it (it can be found online). You'll be shocked at the amount of rules and the detailed minutiae required to keep the playing field relatively level. It would be worse for a "Small CCW' category. What's "Small" to you, might not be to me. SigZagger (above) said he'd never carry his 5" XD because of it's size, but I know many folks who carry full-size 1911s, and I've carried my Glock 34 (shorter and less tall than a 5" 1911, despite it having a 5.3" barrel) in an IWB holster many times, especially in cold weather. The proposed overall length restriction listed in the opening post of this thread would keep out the Glock 19/23/32 size guns, some of the most popular CCW weapons around.

    I will agree with the folks who have said, best thing to do is just shoot IDPA with your carry gun. If you set your goal to get some safe higher-speed/draw-from-a-holster/multiple-target expereince with your carry gun/gear in unknown-in-advance scenarios (and have fun while you're doing it), not to win at all costs, you'll be way ahead of the game (or Gamers).
    "Placement is power" -- seen in an article by Stephen A. Camp
    (RIP, Mr. Camp; you will be remembered, and missed)

  6. #6
    SigZagger's Avatar
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    DJ, excellent analogy...realists vs. gamers. That's why I've "daydreamed" about creating an organization with real life picture 'shoot-don't shoot' targets, much like qualification courses police use for training. IDPA is a game and I'm guilty of falling into the game shooting mentality. In my case I had my XD tuned for USPSA. After one season I tried IDPA (after getting use to some strange rules) and use that same XD along with a more concealable (for my built) Sig P229. It is what it is, and until someone creates a different shooting sport, guys will continue to up grade guns and shoot for speed. It's kinda like playing a video game, only using real bullets. One other comment regarding IDPA. I've watched videos on YouTube and wished some of my local scenarios were as difficult and fun. I believe a lot can be said as to how real a stage is designed, compared to others that are boring, stupid or simply too easy to shoot. Again, it is what it is, right or wrong.

  7. #7
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is offline Senior Member
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    If any of you guys ever feel like visiting Southern California, let me know in advance.
    There's a practicality-oriented, real-life-experience-based shooting discipline based in the Los Angeles area and shooting at an outdoor range near Palmdale. No gamesmen need apply.
    When IPSC/SWPL stopped being practical, our club broke away and established a brand new discipline that would brook no gaming, no run-and-gunning, and no win-at-all-costs thinking. It's been on-going since 1982, and you might like to try it.
    The contact should still be: Bill Johnson
    E-mail address: wolfGBldAx@aol.com

    Bill or I can answer any questions you may have.

  8. #8
    crash972 is offline Junior Member
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    Steve, when do you guys stage these events?

  9. #9
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    Excellent assessment, DJ.

    I'm somewhere between a gamer and a realist. Every once in a while, I shoot with my carry gear just to make sure the motions are automatic.

  10. #10
    niadhf's Avatar
    niadhf is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Niner View Post
    Although I'd like to think it would work, history indicates otherwise. ...
    In my opinion, IDPA shooters basically fall into two groups; I call them Realists and Gamers. The Realists use Inside Waist Band (IWB) or other true concealment holsters and unmodified or lightly (carry modified) guns, and use the matches as a way to practice with their carry guns/gear. The Gamers are generally out to win matches, and will use any advantage they can to gain a higher score. ...
    I will agree with the folks who have said, best thing to do is just shoot IDPA with your carry gun. If you set your goal to get some safe higher-speed/draw-from-a-holster/multiple-target expereince with your carry gun/gear in unknown-in-advance scenarios (and have fun while you're doing it), not to win at all costs, you'll be way ahead of the game (or Gamers).
    The only thing i would add to DJ is, What is your purpose? I shoot IDPA with what i carry. That has been a Kel-tec p-11, m&p FS9 (yes i carrry that. just not in summer). i want to use my taurus 605 but because it is under 3" barrel i have been exluded. i can except the DIS-advantage that only 5 rounds and short barrel offers, but the places i have wanted to shoot it said no.
    Why do i use my carry guns? because the ONLY person i compete against is me. It is nice to see my standing, and when at a match that a friend of mine shoots at, we will compare scores (often for last place). But truly i compete against me. I know if i imrpove by watching my hits and penalties. i strip every magazine instead of assumng the release and a flick will drop them. and i carry spare mags in covered pouches.. all as i do in real life.

    I WAS disappointed in IDPA rule review this last year that they did not (with similar "race restricitng measures" decide to not expand downward in calibre (i love the 9mm MAK, but can see why it would be considered an advantage over even a race 45.. but in a sub 9 category it would be a dis advantage over a 380), but.. time and interest and participatin is what will address this.

    Perhaps we should try changing existing from within to help accomodate?
    I guess i got long winded on my question. If your purpose is to compete against otherou can do that anywheres... you have to either deal with what is out there, or start a new. If it is to compete against you... y

  11. #11
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by crash972 View Post
    Steve, when do you guys stage these events?
    (I am no longer involved, as I no longer live in Southern California.)
    There's a rifle event and a pistol exercise every month. Sometimes a given exercise involves more than one gun. The shotgun is occasionally addressed, too.
    I believe that one event is on the second Saturday, and the other on the fourth.
    If you would like contact information, let me know.

  12. #12
    DJ Niner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niadhf View Post
    The only thing i would add to DJ is, What is your purpose? I shoot IDPA with what i carry. That has been a Kel-tec p-11, m&p FS9 (yes i carrry that. just not in summer). i want to use my taurus 605 but because it is under 3" barrel i have been exluded. i can except the DIS-advantage that only 5 rounds and short barrel offers, but the places i have wanted to shoot it said no.
    Why do i use my carry guns? because the ONLY person i compete against is me. It is nice to see my standing, and when at a match that a friend of mine shoots at, we will compare scores (often for last place). But truly i compete against me. I know if i imrpove by watching my hits and penalties. i strip every magazine instead of assumng the release and a flick will drop them. and i carry spare mags in covered pouches.. all as i do in real life.

    I WAS disappointed in IDPA rule review this last year that they did not (with similar "race restricitng measures" decide to not expand downward in calibre (i love the 9mm MAK, but can see why it would be considered an advantage over even a race 45.. but in a sub 9 category it would be a dis advantage over a 380), but.. time and interest and participatin is what will address this.

    Perhaps we should try changing existing from within to help accomodate?
    I guess i got long winded on my question. If your purpose is to compete against otherou can do that anywheres... you have to either deal with what is out there, or start a new. If it is to compete against you... y
    In my experience, it is a bit strange to NOT let a shooter use whatever gun he chooses, unless there is a safety issue with the gun or gun handling (some folks will turn/swing a short barreled revolver in very strange directions when dumping the empty cases). For the last few years, there has been a fellow that attends many of the same IDPA matches I go to, and he always shoots a small S&W J-frame (5-shot 2-inch .38 caliber revolver). He is never competitive with the stock 4" revolvers, but he still shoots regularly. He's a realist at heart, and he slogs through the high-round-count stages like a trooper. Every now and then I bring a snubbie revolver and shoot through the course with him to show solidarity.

    He's recently bought a Glock, and now shoots the course with BOTH guns, but still uses realistic carry gear.

    Maybe competing against yourself is a better way to express this attitude. If you shoot well (for you and your gun), don't botch any reloads, don't make any mental mistakes, and don't fail to neutralize any targets, then I think a person is doing well by ANY measure.
    "Placement is power" -- seen in an article by Stephen A. Camp
    (RIP, Mr. Camp; you will be remembered, and missed)

  13. #13
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    dondavis3 is offline Senior Member
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    I'm 70 y/o and certainly no expert on this subject.

    But I shot in my 1st and 2nd Concealed Carry Competition 4 weeks ago.

    Here in Dallas there are 2 ranges that have this type of shooting.

    I came in last on my 1st outing and next to last on my 2nd shoot (the last place guy must have died on the course ).

    I can tell you it is the most fun shooting that I've done since shooting "cowboy" shooting a few years back.

    In this club you can:

    1. use any gun you want .38 cal and above.

    2. must wear a concealed cover for the gun - vest / jacket / shirt - anything that covers the weapon.

    3. eyes and ears.

    4. they set up and shoot different life like scenario's.

    5. Our matches have 5 different stages in a match.

    6. At the buzzer you draw your holstered weapon and shoot the scenario.

    This is absolutely a blast to shoot in these "competitions "- imho much more fun that shooting at standard targets.

    Every one knew I was a rookie and yet I was treated like a old time member.

    Everyone was nice / talkative / gave me advice .

    I'd suggest this type of shooting for everyone.

    Just all around fun outing for me.


  14. #14
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    Isn't it great to be 70 and shooting in a competitive shooting sport. I'm 62 and have been involved in IDPA for only three years. My shooting buddy is 83. We both shoot to get out and have fun. He uses a M&P and I'm thinking of falling back to my (more reasonable carry size handgun) SigSauer P229. I too am surprised at (some) local matches that refuse one to use their gun of choice. Nonetheless, from my limited observations it appears to be unlike any other sport competition involving guys who want to beat the other guy. Hell, some of the women are hard to beat. Maybe IDPA started as a stock conceal carry gun course by design, but it slowly funneled toward a "faster tricked out gun" is better. Sounds a little like USPSA doesn't it? Maybe an overall review is needed.

  15. #15
    dondavis3's Avatar
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    +1 Sigzagger

    "Isn't it great to be 70 and shooting in a competitive shooting sport"

    Yes it is great.

    I should have mentioned the women shooters too.

    They shot ever bit as well as the men.

    Don't get me wrong, every body tried to shoot the best score that they could, they were trying to beat each other - just good friendly type competition.

    I chose to shoot my Sig P229 at both matches, but I'll probably several different guns as the time goes by.

    I can't wait for the next match.

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