Originally Posted by fliperoo

...it's easy to talk tough, but the fact is that if any one of you shoots someone in your home...unless you can prove with 100% certainty that they were acutely and directly attempting to kill you or your family members, you will be living the next 25 to life in an orange jumpsuit and picking up trash on the side of my road chained to the guys on either side of you....which may not be the worst thing ever....this place is full of trash and looks like crap.....so fire away.

you might be right. should that occur all of us may very well be serving some of or the rest of our lives in jail. but it will be the first crime most of us are on record as having commited, and we will be alive, and our families will be alive. I'd say 25 to life is worth it.

There's a saying involving types of people, it goes to say that there are only 3 kinds of people. the first kind is 90% of the population world wide. This group is too weak, believe themselves to be too morally sound, or are just plain too ignorant of the reality's of the world to take precautions against the dangers of the world or even defend themselves. These people are your rape victims, the dead people being mentioned on tonights daily news, the neighbor whose house got robbed while he was in it. This group is known as prey.

9% of the population that isn't prey are those who see the opportunity to gain from prey, to feed from prey and forcibly take what it wants from prey, usually just forms of livelihood, but up to and including the prey's life. This group is known as the predators.

Mathematically speaking there is now only 1% left. This all too small group of people are those among the world who refuse to be either, who by one means or many means refuses to be prey, but, despite having all of the capabilities of being a predator, refuses to exist at such a base level of humanity. They are those who come running when they hear a scream, a cry for help, they are those who run into a burning building when help hasn't yet arisen, they are those who defend themselves, kinfolk and livelihoods, as well as their neighbors', they may be preyed upon by an unsavi predator, but the predator will likely regret his choice of lifestyle. This group refuses to turn a blind eye to the world, as it refuses to be a part of a system that practically caters towards predators. This group has many names. They are Patriots, they are hero's, riflemen and pistoleers, law abiding citizens, or this nations first and last line of defense. This forum's member's are mostly of this class.

Originally Posted by fliperoo

this place is full of trash and looks like crap...

are you trying to get banned...? seriously...

Originally Posted by fliperoo

...it's easy to talk tough, but the fact is that if any one of you shoots someone in your home...unless you can prove with 100% certainty that they were acutely and directly attempting to kill you or your family members, you will be living the next 25 to life in an orange jumpsuit and picking up trash on the side of my road chained to the guys on either side of you....which may not be the worst thing ever....this place is full of trash and looks like crap.....so fire away.

You are either assuming knowledge or misinformed. For instance, in Colorado, if a person makes entry into yiour residence you can exercise deadly force without a "duty to retreat" without criminal prosecution. It's called the "Make my day" law. Many other states have in recent months adopted similar "castle doctrine" laws though there are some with a duty to retreat or other stipulations added upon the resident. There have also been several high profile recent cases where Texas homeowners terminated burglars while on the phone with 911 dispatchers and have not been criminally prosecuted.

Just last week there was a burglar killed in Denver that made the news as well. Officers were in the neighborhood responding to a break in/suspected home invasion. Home alarm went off and the cops found nobody in the immediate area. They heard gunshots a short distance away and responded. A homeowner apparently killed the suspect seeking a new/quieter target. The burglar was struck several times in the head as he was attempting to crawl into a ground level window. No criminal charges have been filed on the homeowner to date.

Well there's 2 responders here that seem to rile up the membership, and justly so.

As far as "macho responders", while we may never know what the outcome will be from the use of deadly force by one who may respond that way, it's safe to say it will be a life-sized event for that person. If he/she lives in a state or community that frowns on a persons right to self defense that event may be catastrophic. Perhaps the proud and self-assured individual protected his own life or his loved one's only to find he should have retreated to a slobbering candyass begging for his life in hopes that the obligatory 911 call was answered. Prosecution of such an action should be followed with a public outcry that gets international attention, and perhaps surely has in the past. How nice would "shangri-la" be to live in? All love and help and smiles 24/7. Not happening. I can't answer how I'd feel about taking a life as I've never been faced with the choice and never want to face it. I want shangri-la just like everyone. Faced with the choice, I'm certain I could and sleep well. It's not macho, it's a trust in one's rational mind to be able to do the right thing when that thing happens. In my house without an invitation in the wee hours would surely be met with the intent and follow up of deadly force. Nothing to prove in that scenario. I don't stand ready eager for an invasion, I don't ever discount the fact that it may happen. I keep noisy dogs as an alert, I keep loaded firearms within easy reach.

To biathlete, there's so much more to self defense that Moore could never explain in any feature film and appears to not have the desire to show both sides, frankly in anything he does. I've seen them all and have pulled from them onesy-twosy things that make sense. His goal is to flame up those who think like him. I'll never deny how well researched his work is to be able to show what he does but the other side is missing. There's NOTHING he's ever done to support the common denominator you'd find in a forum like this. This IS a forum of responsible enthusiasts willing to defend themselves with that which they're enthusiastic about, firearms. Personally I love em. I like way more than I can afford. I feel great after a range visit. I feel confident in my ability and choice of gun. I feel like I'm part of a patriotic society that supports my right to SD and gun ownership. I feel proud of my wife who joins me in those visits, but will always worry if she'll freeze for 1 second too long. We're not all Harry Calahns or Martin Riggs, we're Americans who believe and practice our 2nd amendment rights. We're also not too different from any other enthusiast who collects and appreciates things mechanical or artistic. I feel that the responsibility and accountability that follows gun ownership is something to be admired and respected rather than chastized and insulted.


For the record, there was one thing in "...Columbine" that thought was right on and from all the possible people, it didn't come from Moore. When asked, "What would you tell kids today?" of Marilyn Manson, he responded with "I wouldn't tell them anything, I'd listen." In context, that made perfect sense to me.

mtn.shooter - I'll answer your question - No. Just like 99.9% of all non-LEO gun carriers. Everyone has their own idea on when they'd use their weapon. Bottom line is that we'd all have to live with our decision, as it should be.

I've been living with my grandma out in the country, and break-ins have been happening like crazy around there since it's all elderly people with four-wheelers, tractors, and guns around the house. My grandma has taken to locking her door for the first time since she's lived there. So when the dog goes ballistic at 3 in the morning, I'm not walking to the door with nothing but a smile, if you catch my drift.

As far as our gun grabbing friends like mike moore and other yahoos go, I'd be willing to bet they have security/body guards that carry those same "assualt weapons" that they are trying to condemn. FOr the public to have it is horrible, but for them, just as for most elitist arrogant jerks, they're special, and "need" the protection "more" than us.

And in response to the muscle flexor comment...I'd like to think I look better in orange behind bars, then in a suit in a wooden box.

Gentlemen and I mean gentlemen, you handled this situation quite well. I am proud of each and everyone of you. Thank you all for being part of this forum and this thread. Some forums would have gotten totally out of control, when a couple of tweety birds like Biathelete and fliperoo try to rile the members. This forum by far has the most level headed, educated men and women. I can not praise you people enough and to the tweety birds,Michael Moore, Biathelete and fliperoo this is for you

First of all, Thank You Zhurdan...as your response was dead on. The trolls who posted their rediculous gibberish just need an education. Ignorance is one thing, but stupid is completely different. It is fairly obvious that we are dealing with both...

In my opinion, on the original question, I will be prepared for any threat that comes to my family, my property, or myself. I will do everything in my power to stop said threat. If all that I have to do is ready myself to fire a weapon, then great. If I don't have to take a life I would say that is a positive thing. At the same time, I don't go around planning to pull my gun, AKA Brandish, to "scare off threats" or intimidate. Long story short = I will do the least possible to stop the threat.

As said before, I think you all handled the trolls very well.

As a recently retired LEO, I've drawn my sidearm many times. More importantly, I've answered many 911 calls in the Detroit area. So many people believe they will be 'allowed' to use their phone during a home invasion, robbery, etc.
The average self-defence shooting begins and ends within 6 seconds. In such cases, "someone" eventually calls 911 and LE arrives in time to secure the scene, collect the body, and begin the investigation.
The BGs actually know about 'phones' and do not allow their victims to make calls before being raped, robbed, mutilated and/or killed.
Too often, I've arrived after women [and men] have been raped, spouses and/or children killed/maimed/kidnapped, etc.

Times changed in the U.S., forever, when crack cocaine was introduced into the public... and we can't go back. Then came the big surprise of Meth. Now are the days of the criminal psychotic.

Bottom line is, if you 'decide' to draw a weapon, it MUST be with the full intent of using it... or suffer the consequences. Many good people have suffered horrible consequences before realizing that EVERYONE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN PERSONAL SAFETY.

This thread has been very interesting to me. Here are some of my take aways.
Bad guys exist everywhere and can strike at any time but you are most likely to have to defend your life in your own home.
I can mitigate most of the danger OUTSIDE of my home by being smart, vigilant, preventative and proactive. Avoid hot spots whenever possible.
My home is the place that I am most willing to use deadly force.
Using deadly force in my home will certainly meet w/ legalities, but more likely to be deemed necessary.
Brandishing is an option used by the foolhardy.
Open carry MAY prevent a "situation" but more likely will lead to fear, judgment and conversations I wish not to have.
I will keep up w/ this thread and continue to learn. Thanks for the input all!

Time to get my feet wet.

The best advice I can give you on this topic is what was given to me.

"If you are going to carry a gun, the first that someone should know of it in a "situation" is that sudden pain in their chest...
Never think of a gun as a "magic wand" to be pulled out and waved in the air to make a problem disappear. If you have to draw you have to shoot, or you shouldn't have drawn in the first place."

I've always felt like that was pretty good advice.

John

Originally Posted by mtn.shooter

My wife and I discuss guns often. She is fine w/ them as fun, plinking, sport or hunting, but is afraid of SD purposes as she feels drawing a pistol may/will escalate the problem. My opinion is that the situation needs to be dire before I draw and leveling a weapon MAY disperse the tension w/o shots fired. Now I am beginning to doubt myself as I figure if I need to come to bear, lead is flying. I am comfortable w/ defending myself and my property w/ lethal force. I am asking w/ all due respect and discretion, how many of you have had to come to bear and NOT have to fire a round? I am not sure if I phrased my question well, but I wonder how many times "I have a gun"..."I will shoot you"..."got out of my house or I will shoot you" works in lieu of lead.

Not legally allowed to conceal carry in my state, but I have had situations where strange people have come to the door late at night (10pm). I came to the door with my Springfield Loaded in my hand and they turned around and left. There's some dog next door (pit bull) that always gets wild and out of control any time we mow the lawn. The owner says it doesn't bite. But it has nipped at my neighbor before. Well the other day it's out running around and comes across and is nipping at my dad and the owner comes out and says "don't worry it doesn't bite." Well a good friend of the family got mauled by a Rottweiler a while back on his bicycle and the owner of that dog said it didn't bite too. If that dog crosses into my yard and starts biting my mom or dad, I don't know whether I should shoot it, wrestle it off, or just wait until it goes away and then press charges later.

I think if it was biting and I thought it was going to kill someone, I would fire. Otherwise, I'd call the authorities and then try to wrestle it off and hold it down.

---------
Not to get too off topic, but a friend of mine who lives in another state (we went to school together) carries a concealed weapon and thought someone was following him late one night. Person walks up and says give me your wallet, well my buddy flashes his gun at this guy and the guy takes off running. Sometimes the sight of a gun scares people off. On another forum, someone said they were in some store while there was a robbery and had their hand on their gun, safety off, drew but never had to fire. The guy dropped his gun and the cops showed up and asked for his CCW license.

Hogger,

I get what you are saying but how is that related to this thread?

For me to draw my gun ... it will have to be a bad situation.

I can not imagine how bad I would feel if I had to shoot someone - you talk about ruining your life ..

But I've thought it through and have no doubt that I can and will shoot someone to protect myself or my family.

I sure hope none of us has to ... but we may.

The closest I came to shooting anyone is about 30 years ago, I honked at a car in front of me, sitting at the green light, not moving. At the next light, both the driver and passenger got out, with aluminum baseball bats, and were screaming they were going to bash my skull in. I was a security guard and carried a Dan Wesson Model 15-2 .357, and as the driver cocked the bat to smash my window, I pulled my gun, and when he saw it, he yelled, "He's got a gun!", and they got into their car and took off. I went home, and a few minutes after I arrived, the police showed up. I was still in my uniform, and it was nearly identical to their own, and they said that someone had called and said I had pointed a gun at them for "no reason". I laughed and told them what really happened. The cops said, "Why should we believe you?" I had a great answer, "Because unless I'm psychic, how would I know there are two baseball bats in the car, one blue and silver, the other orange and silver?" The cops let them fill out and sign reports and then busted them. The one guy, even after the cops told them the baseball bats gave them away, still didn't understand why they got caught lying. They pled guilty to filing a false police report.

I remember wondering if I would ever be able to hear again if I did have to shoot them. A .357 fired inside a car isn't fun.

I have really enjoyed reading the responses as well as the different opinions expressed here. This is a very articulate no nonesense group!

Personally, If I have to pull my weapon I am going to use it. I go to the range 2 or 3 times a week and practice with the same weapon. If i need to pull my weapon I want to make sure I hit who I want to, where I want to. There are no second chances when it comes to protecting my family or self.

I have also noted a change in my demeanor now that i have a CCW and carry. I try to smile more, avoid confrontations and idiots, and not take on an aggressive posture. I have no intentions (nor have in the past) of provoking a situation or becoming a target.

My best advice is to practice at the range; take a course from an NRA instructor and pray for the best but expect the worse. One of the most important things my instructor told me is that it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Originally Posted by BrooklynBoy

I have really enjoyed reading the responses as well as the different opinions expressed here. This is a very articulate no nonesense group!

Personally, If I have to pull my weapon I am going to use it. I go to the range 2 or 3 times a week and practice with the same weapon. If i need to pull my weapon I want to make sure I hit who I want to, where I want to. There are no second chances when it comes to protecting my family or self. (snip)

Please keep in mind that situations are dynamic. They change from second to second and if you had to draw your pistol, and the situation changed... like say the bad guy dropped his weapon and you still shot them... well, lets just say that isn't going to fair well for you if there are witnesses, and there are ALWAYS witnesses.

Many people that I've trained, trained with and talked to have the same mentality as you do. I used to as well. Please just be mindful that situations are dynamic. Most of the people I've talked to/with about why they think like what I bolded in your comment is because they said they'll just wait to get their gun out until they know they have to use it. Personally, I'm working on the premise that I'll see the potential danger far enough out and simply move away, but if there's an immediate danger (and I mean serious danger), that pistol is getting deployed and ready for use. Then I'll re-evaluate the situation to see if it warrants pulling the trigger. Waiting until the decision point is already to the "must fire" stage may be too late. Food for thought.

Originally Posted by Bisley

Congratulations with that, and good luck for the future, because you are out of luck if some evil bastard goes through the victim selection process and it spits out your name.

That is the best line of the week right there!
Awesome!

In answer to the original post only, and because I like the fact that you and your wife have discussed it, I'll give you my experience.

I've been carrying for 13 years. In that time, I've never visibly drawn, but have had my hand on the gun butt ready to several times. I can have my hand on the gun without it being visible because I carry almost exclusively in a Tommy's Original Gun Pack, always covered for the most part by an untucked shirt.

Almost all, about 5 times, because I was approached while waiting in my vehicle in one parking lot or another for someone, wife or kids, by a parking lot bum wanting blah-blah-blah. We had an influx of Katrina Trash in town (sorry, but not really) and seems like every parking lot in town for a while was an opportunity to be approached by somebody you didn't want approaching you, some rather aggressively. That has mostly dissipated, but some are still around, in addition to locals. They mostly approached on the driver's side from my rear quarter. Must be something they teach in parking lot beggar school. Probably gauging your alertness. Anyway, every one was told quickly to get where I could see them without breaking my neck or get the F away from my truck. None were given anything, and they all skulked off to bother somebody else. None got within arm's reach of my window. All were covered by a 9mm, .40, or .45 semi-automatic held below window level. None saw the pistols, but I suspect some knew by my body language that one was there.

Once by a dog owner who took exception to me kicking his dog when he watched it approach me from his driveway to me across the street, in violation of the local leash laws. And after I had told him to call his dog. I guess he thought he was lord of that street. That was the closest I ever came to actually using my CHL. He never knew how lucky he was to be walking away. He never raised a hand, but the potential was there. I had my hand on the gun, and pointed at his gut while still in the gunpack. That one still bothers me. He had had a yard tool of some type in his hand when he started my way, and I just knew I was going to have to threaten to shoot him, but fortunately for him, he had dropped it at the edge of his yard before he got on the street. Standard stupid dog owner stuff, "She wouldn't have bitten you. You didn't have to kick her." I won't tell you my response, but it was to the effect that his dog and then he had no business approaching me, and he'd better get out of my face.

I've heard the "gunslinger" mentality accusations by some on this site, but I found out right there that I desperately did not want to shoot the fool, but was prepared to. I've thought it over many times since, and am convinced I would have not been billed here in Texas, but would have been asking myself for a long time what could I have done differently.

We've had a recent string of parking lot carjacking going on here in San Antonio, so I'm on high alert these days. Good to be able to carry.

There was actually a gun battle of sorts between a carjacker and a CHL holder in the parking lot of an Academy near my house this Sunday. The carjacker surprised him while he was loading purchases into his vehicle. Unfortunately the CHL holder took a bullet (non-life threatening) and the carjacker got away. Don't know if he was injured.

I can't see how this thread made it this far. But I also have to wonder how insignificant your life must be to troll forums looking for a reaction. I figure it's a couple 10 yr. olds playing hooky from day care.

I thought these types of questions were against the rules, no matter how sincere, eh?

back in May my parents had some excitement at their house. They live out in the country and about 1130 pm the front door bell rang, then someone knocked several times then tried to turn the knob. Automaticly my dad knew something wasnt right because we have a large fence in our front yard and all of the gates are locked so people dont accidently let their dogs out. He knew someone had jumped that fence. My dad has a heck of a lot of guns, and my mom is retired law enforcement so needless to say there as a few guns at their house. Dad grabbed the shotgun and opend the door to a drunk trying to get in. He put the gun in the guys face while my mom called the police. He said that drunks whole demeaner changed when he saw that barrel in his face. Cops showed up and arrested him and were talking to my dad. They said if in fact he would have shot the man, it would have been completely justified because if our front door would not have been looked he would have barged right in the house. So just because you have to show a gun to someone does not mean you have to kill them. If that man would have still been aggressive towards my dad then it would have gotten ugly, but since he was intimidated of the gun things worked out and nobody was killed and nobody had to live with taking someones life.

Originally Posted by dondavis3

For me to draw my gun ... it will have to be a bad situation.

I can not imagine how bad I would feel if I had to shoot someone - you talk about ruining your life ..

But I've thought it through and have no doubt that I can and will shoot someone to protect myself or my family.

I sure hope none of us has to ... but we may.

spot on!

Originally Posted by fliperoo

...it's easy to talk tough, but the fact is that if any one of you shoots someone in your home...unless you can prove with 100% certainty that they were acutely and directly attempting to kill you or your family members, you will be living the next 25 to life in an orange jumpsuit and picking up trash on the side of my road chained to the guys on either side of you....which may not be the worst thing ever....this place is full of trash and looks like crap.....so fire away.

Not in Oklahoma!!! If i look out my window and a guy is coming down my driveway with a shotgun in his hand headed towards my door i can blow him away from inside the house if i feel he is a threat to me, my family, or my property! Thats a fact!!!!!