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  1. #26
    GoFullAuto is offline Junior Member
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    Super delicate matter, here in Italy people are scared to death at the idea of citizens going armed, there is a huge level of distrust between fellow citizens :-(

    My 2 cents is this: carrying is like buckling up. That is, the very last line of defense when all else failed. On the road, that means "all other safety rules". On self defense, that means "when society allowed violent aggressors to roam free around, so that a gun is all that may stand between me and the "mercy" of said murderers. It's not a matter of big principles, I myself thik that it SHOULD be my state's FIRST responsibility, to keep me protected. But, even the best state will fail to do so 100% of time.

    It's a matter of facts. Hit with no belt and you'll smash face in window. Be caught that one time in life by an overwhelming aggressor, and you'll just succumb to his "mercy".

    All the remaining details (carry open / hidden / revo / semiauto / DA / SA / Glock / 1-2-3 spare mags) simply have to be adapted to context, there can be no absolute recipe.

    Not my problem anyway, my citizens have long decided they (we...) prefer to be victims. :-/

    Ciao!
    GfA

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  3. #27
    twomode is offline Member
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    jfmartin, other than to state your position that it's a duty and an obligation to carry, your remaining statements and posts actually confuse or are contradictory to your first.

    You state you don't go anywhere without your weapon. You don't go anywhere that's is unsafe unless you have your gun.
    Then since it's unsafe, you don't go there. Then, you carry in your yard while mowing the lawn (or planting flowers or whatever) and you are carrying while sitting at your 'puter posting!!!!

    By your own definition, 2 places you deem unsafe.

    I think you need to move out of your house. To where I have NO idea.

    Furthermore, you deviate from what is an obvious attempt at an argument when others post their different views. If all you want is for everyone to agree with everything you say, well, I've never seen that forum. If you're going to post a point of view, expect debate. Fresh, knowledgeable, respectful debate. And then learn from it. That's why people responded. You did yourself no favors arguing with different points of view.

  4. #28
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    I dont know of any place where you are truely 100% safe, and noone ever knows when something bad will happen or where....so many things could happen, its crazy to try to summarize them all....bottom line is that if you have your weapon with you, you are always going to be better off than if you didnt have it.....maybe you will never need it, or maybe tomorrow while you are in line for coffee or shopping with the missus you will, if anyone who has been walking the face of the earth for more than 5 minutes hasnt figured out that nothing is guaranteed, well then theres no hope for you.....

    never mind the bad guys, what about things like dog attacks or big pet monkeys named travis? Think the lady who had her face and hands ripped off by the monkey wasnt wishing for a 45?

    I think if you can carry and have a licence, then you should, always...

  5. #29
    Handgun World's Avatar
    Handgun World is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redwolf View Post
    Theres only one time you will ever need your weapon, The day you leave it at home.
    Well said Redwolf. Short, sweet, to the point.

  6. #30
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    uhhhhhh



    hate it when that happens...

  7. #31
    sheepdog is offline Banned
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    Weren't no mall ninja around when...

    ...these happened...

    http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...87/detail.html

    http://www.denverpost.com/ci_7646493?source=bb

    http://cbs4denver.com/local/denver.c....2.560991.html

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-w...mall-shooting/

    http://www.mahalo.com/chicago-mall-shooting

    ...try telling the survivors that it won't happen here...or the many more that it's happened at before and after these...it's easy to dismiss them or ridicule those who warn us...till it's our niece or daughter...or mother or brother...times have sadly changed...proof is in the papers....

  8. #32
    falchunt's Avatar
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    I agree with you sheepdog, I was implying that someone was being a troll...

  9. #33
    sheepdog is offline Banned
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    I needa...

    ...nudder cuppa coffee...I misread you...sorry...just blowin' the trumpet....again....

  10. #34
    Bisley's Avatar
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    People tend to over-dramatize a bit when trying to express their reasons for carrying a gun. I've been guilty of it myself, because it really is kind of a monumental commitment, if you think about it. I've lived my whole life believing that I will exit this world without seriously harming another human being, and I still believe that will happen.

    But bad things happen to good people, every minute of the day, and most of them never believed such a thing to be possible. So, I choose to carry a lethal weapon on my body, just so I don't have to worry about the consequences of being caught completely defenseless. Should the 'victim selection process' ever go against me, or somebody I'm willing to defend, I won't go out with a whimper.

  11. #35
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    Carrying a gun is no business at all... meaning it's nobody else's business to know that you are carrying in my opinion. I've been carrying for a very long time, and there's perhaps a handful of people that know that I do, where I live.

    I carry it just in case I need it, not because I think I will or because I'm so switched on that I'll always be able to know where danger may be. I don't think anyone would or should purposefully put themselves in a dangerous area, but sometimes it's unavoidable. Ever get a flat tire? Ever take a wrong turn? Ever miss an exit on the highway? As my wife says about our dogs...shit happens, have a scooper!

  12. #36
    buck32's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zhurdan View Post
    Carrying a gun is no business at all... meaning it's nobody else's business to know that you are carrying in my opinion. I've been carrying for a very long time, and there's perhaps a handful of people that know that I do, where I live.

    I carry it just in case I need it, not because I think I will or because I'm so switched on that I'll always be able to know where danger may be. I don't think anyone would or should purposefully put themselves in a dangerous area, but sometimes it's unavoidable. Ever get a flat tire? Ever take a wrong turn? Ever miss an exit on the highway? As my wife says about our dogs...shit happens, have a scooper!
    +1

    Now that is some real canine wisdom

  13. #37
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    the weapon itself is a tremendous amount of responsibility. A choice to be made without delusions of heroism.

  14. #38
    sheepdog is offline Banned
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    We've got...

    ...a lot of people carrying who probably are wannabees...nursing "delusions of heroism"....as mentioned...we also have many carrying who are highly trained and experienced ex- and retired LEOS and Military who not only know when, but , more importantly, when NOT to...make use of the weapon...I think the majority fall far from the former...and yet won't come close to the latter...and don't want to...for them it's insurance for their safety and their families and they wouldn't want to be in a situation where they had to act...I've known some in all three categories and much prefer the second and third...the first make me nervous and are often downright embarrassing for the rest of us....

  15. #39
    jfmartin25's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by twomode View Post
    jfmartin, other than to state your position that it's a duty and an obligation to carry, your remaining statements and posts actually confuse or are contradictory to your first. .
    -Nope, never said that. Might want to go back and re-read ALL of MY posts and try a little harder not to confuse them with what others have said.

    Quote Originally Posted by twomode View Post
    You state you don't go anywhere without your weapon. You don't go anywhere that's is unsafe unless you have your gun. .
    Nope, sorry, wrong again. I did not say that I, "Don't go anywhere without a weapon". Again, you may want to go back and re-read all of MY posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by twomode View Post
    Then, you carry in your yard while mowing the lawn (or planting flowers or whatever) and you are carrying while sitting at your 'puter posting!!!!
    I think you missed my point, what I am trying to convey is that I tend to wear my weapon at times when other people might not think that any sane and rational individual would deem appropriate. I have never professed to be either of those two traits. On that note however, let me explain some of the benefits of carrying a weapon at certain times when people don't expect you to. The other day, some ex-criminal-looking post-teen rang the door bell and started off with a sales pitch about how he is reforming his life by selling magazine subscriptions door-to-door. He cut himself off mid-sentance when his eyes ceased contact with my eyes and recognized that I had holstered across my chest a very large pistol. I just smiled and slowly closed the door without saying a word. As I peered through the peephole, I could see him fast-walking back down the driveway and getting into a shitbox car that someone else was already waiting for him in. My thought process here was such; perhaps this "reformed" individual was not so "reformed" and was possibly casing the neighborhood looking for soft targets. If this is the case, I'm pretty sure he was well informed that my home was no soft target. Thank you very much.

    Quote Originally Posted by twomode View Post
    By your own definition, 2 places you deem unsafe.

    I think you need to move out of your house. To where I have NO idea.

    Furthermore, you deviate from what is an obvious attempt at an argument when others post their different views. If all you want is for everyone to agree with everything you say, well, I've never seen that forum. If you're going to post a point of view, expect debate. Fresh, knowledgeable, respectful debate. And then learn from it. That's why people responded. You did yourself no favors arguing with different points of view.
    I think you need to figure out who you're really angry with and take it out on them, not me. The intent of my original post was not to cause an argument, but to state my OPINION, just like everyone else did. I don't really care if people agree with me or not, nor do I care to waste any more energy on this subject arguing a dead point. I already stated many posts ago, that I have my side of view, other's have theirs' and that's the beauty of life. So, considering I already stated this, it looks to me like you were just looking to instigate more from me. Apparently you don't heed your own advice;
    Quote Originally Posted by twomode View Post
    Fresh, knowledgeable, respectful debate.

  16. #40
    Bisley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfmartin25 View Post
    I don't really care if people agree with me or not, nor do I care to waste any more energy on this subject arguing a dead point. I already stated many posts ago, that I have my side of view, other's have theirs' and that's the beauty of life.
    That is just fine - I can't say that I feel much different, as far as trying to please other people.

    Your response to this is not necessary, since you have tired of the 'argument,' but, surely you understand that responsible people feel the need to offer rebuttal to statements they think are wrong, for the benefit of those who are new to the whole concept of defending themselves with firearms, and who are reading these threads diligently and with open minds.

    Your philosophy of self-defense seems to be a bit 'one dimensional,' geared towards your always knowing when danger is likely, and making a show of strength that will make the average low-life decide to select an easier victim. That is probably a workable strategy for use against several different kinds of would-be attackers, and in a variety of circumstances. But, the thing is that most folks who have made the decision to carry a gun have their own particular 'pet' scenarios that they believe they are guarding against, and most of the more realistic ones require that the BG does not know that they are armed.

    For example, in my own case, one of the scenarios I envision is something like the Luby's massacre, from twenty some odd years ago. This is probably because I used to stop in there occasionally, with my entire family, usually accompanied by my elderly parents. I imagine what it would have been like, had the BG showed up at one of those times. Naturally, this is one of the scenarios I play out in my mind when planning my personal SD 'plan.' There are others, of course, but this is the one that keeps me diligent in my practice discipline and in my determination to carry every day, everywhere I go.

    In such a case, the BG intends to die, anyway, so if he sees a gun on someone, he is not going to back off, but rather will try to take out the gun-toter first, so he can do maximum damage before he checks out. This is just one example, but you get the point, I'm sure, that there are all different types of BG's.

    My own personal opinion about open carry is that I believe it should be an option, but it is one that I would rarely avail myself of, because concealed carry suits my self-defense strategy better. As I get older, I can even imagine that open carry might actually make me the target of some punk who needed to steal a gun.

  17. #41
    Marty919 is offline Junior Member
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    Concealed Carry is NOT for everyone (unfortunately)

    The topic of carrying a gun is so contentious, it rivals discussions of religion, abortion, politics...

    That said, I don't think many people can disagree that we live in a dangerous and unpredictable world... whether you live in a major city or a rural area. Amazingly stupid things happen every day, when most people least expect it. Of course you don't want to intentionally go into a 'bad' area. Of course you don't want to ask for trouble. But that's the whole point of carrying - that you are prepared when you DON'T expect trouble.

    So the obvious comes into play:

    1. The police play a critical role in our society, but they DO NOT and CANNOT protect the citizenry en masse proactively. And even if they WANTED to, like the saying goes: when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Try calling 911 when your life is at immediate risk. Or hoping that when it happens there is conveniently a policeman or policewoman standing 5 feet away. I love to gamble, but not like that.

    2. You hope you never need to pull your gun, but you'd rather have it and never need it, than need it and not have it.

    3. And a million other reasons, rationalizations, truisms that speak to the wisdom of legally carrying a gun.

    But it's NOT for everyone. Like driving a car, if you're not confident, don't do it. If you really don't feel comfortable carrying a gun, either don't do it (I don't want Nervous Nellies all around me with live guns), or better yet GET TRAINED. There is no substitute for experience. Most people find that the more they train and shoot, the more confident they become, and the more they 'feel' the seriousness of their responsibility as a gun owner and carrier.

    A lot of good info and advice in this thread, but I wanted to add one more tidbit:

    Carrying a gun IS serious business, and very serious responsibility. And that requires RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE who know that it's no one's business to know you are carrying (it cannot help and can only get you in trouble), that you don't pull your gun for anything less than YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER RIGHT NOW situations - and that does not include fights or arguments, or someone giving you the finger driving, or anything less than YOU BELIEVE YOU WILL DIE IF YOU DON'T PULL YOUR GUN!

    One stupid person carrying can make a media mess for all the rest of us legal, responsible gun owners, and that's the last thing we need. I personally make it a habit to educate everyone I know to be more responsible, use better judgment, discuss this with other gun owners, keep the responsibility issue high on everyone's mind.

    Stay safe everyone. Be smart. It's not that hard to do.

    And a word for new gun carriers: Yes it can be exciting to have just gotten your carry permit. But this is not a reality show, it's real life. The day you get your permit to carry is the day you should lose the ego and bravado completely. This is one of the ultimate privileges of being an adult, and there is no more serious reality than having the power of life and death riding on your hip. There is NO room for error, you need to develop a ZERO tolerance policy for yourself. It is NOT something to show off. Ever.

    Marty919

  18. #42
    sheepdog is offline Banned
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    +1...

    ...quality, well-written post...welcome....

  19. #43
    Redwolf's Avatar
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    I second that.

  20. #44
    oldtrojan66 is offline Junior Member
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    I third that...I just hope everyone stays safe until the Good Lord calls them home...

  21. #45
    jklotz is offline Junior Member
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    My 2 cents

    Hi Guys, new to the forum. Seems like a cool place to hang out...

    Anyway, I felt that I should add my perspective to this discussion, as it's one close to my heart. I live in downtown Atlanta. My work is here and I live in my studio. On the last 6 months, there have been 3 armed car jackings, and 4 armed incidents involving my neighbors and friends. All of which have occurred within a 4 block radius of my home. Those are just the ones I know about that involved people I know first hand. Some scary sh*t! It's a war zone out there!

    To make things worse, our mayor, in her infinite wisdom, thought it a good idea to lay off many of the LEO's and firefighters, as the budget of our city is in a crisis situation due to the economy and a grossly mismanaged city pension fund.

    I have no choice but to carry. I'm no hero, have no desire to fight or cause trouble, don't believe any possession is worth a human life, and, if given the option, would probably choose not to carry. I simply don't have a choice, short of moving to a safer area, which would, in turn, be bad for my business, not to mention selling my property at a loss, which I'm not willing to do.

    That being said, I don't take the decision lightly. I applied for my permit and am taking a weekend long class by certified instructors. In addition, I plan to hone my skills with some IDPA matches and some serious range time. It's a major responsibility, and part of that responsibility is to get the proper training to be able to do so safely.

    Now I might get flamed for saying this (cut me a break guys, it's my 1st post), but it blows me away knowing that all I had to do to get a permit was to go down to city hall, get fingerprinted, fill out a few forms and give them $60. Never once was I asked what training I had or if I knew how to carry responsibly. Hell, they never even asked me if I had even shot a gun before!

    Why on earth would some training or certification not be required to get a weapons permit? You need it to get a drivers license for God's sake. I just don't get it.

  22. #46
    dondavis3's Avatar
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    +1 jklotz

    Welcome to this forum - I think you'll like it here.

    Great 1st post on your part.

    I agrees - everyone that get a carry licence should have to take a class & proficiency test.

    I didn't like taking my class either, but it needs to be done.


  23. #47
    twomode is offline Member
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    Welcome jklotz stick around this is the highest quality forum you'll find. No crap, just facts.

    There are many among us who would say that what little you went through was too much. By that I mean that your right to own and enjoy as many weapons as you like without any intervention whatsoever is gauranteed by the 2nd Amendment. You just walk into a store and buy what you want like bubble gum. My CC class instructor made no bones about the fact that we were "forced" to take his class, and he hated that for us. That being said I still believe some rules I agree with. Convicted felon restrictions, people with mental illnesses. You get the idea. But then that begs the question, where do rules make sense, and when are they infringing on our God given rights as U.S. citizens? The 2A doesn't address the problems we have today, but it's still the most important one of all. Without it, none of the others are enforceable.

    If you're just getting started spend some time here. There is no question you might have that hasn't been asked (some repeatedly) and no answer you can't find. As you browse different forums, you'll see what I mean. You might stop by the new members forum and intro yourself if you haven't already. See you around!
    Last edited by twomode; 02-24-2010 at 09:20 AM. Reason: What else? Splleing!

  24. #48
    Bisley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jklotz View Post
    Now I might get flamed for saying this (cut me a break guys, it's my 1st post), but it blows me away knowing that all I had to do to get a permit was to go down to city hall, get fingerprinted, fill out a few forms and give them $60. Never once was I asked what training I had or if I knew how to carry responsibly. Hell, they never even asked me if I had even shot a gun before!

    Why on earth would some training or certification not be required to get a weapons permit? You need it to get a drivers license for God's sake. I just don't get it.
    No flame intended here, but shouldn't a genuinely free man, which our Constitution was written to protect, take responsibility for his own safety, and have enough sense not to endanger the safety of those around him?

    I'll grant you that there are a few knuckleheads out there with guns, that are dangerous to law-abiding citizens. But that is no excuse for the government to think it can or should remove rights from the rest of us. That same knucklehead is just as likely to injure you with a motor vehicle, yet we let him have one to do with as he pleases, after a very minimal amount of training.

    Laws should punish those who infringe on the rights of other citizens - not try to prevent every possible bad thing imaginable from happening. That is too subjective and requires someone to make a judgment he is likely not qualified to make, about the competency of others. It is already illegal to injure another person, whether accidentally or not, whether with a gun, or not, so let's just do a better job of prosecuting that, and let the subsequent 'deterrent effect' take care of the 'what if' part of the equation.

    We don't need to further empower government in that regard, so that they can appoint more incompetent bureaucrats who will beat us over the head with nit-picking regulations that have already been covered with other laws.

    Welcome to the forum, and congratulations for taking the responsibility to look after your own welfare. You will likely become more independent and less tolerant of government meddling, as you get more and more comfortable with protecting your own interests. If so, you will be a free-er man than you used to be.

  25. #49
    jklotz is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks guys, I appreciate the warm welcome. Bisley, I completely understand where you are coming from. I won't argue with you, the 2nd is what it is, and there is no going back now - the genies out of the bottle so to speak. IMHO, I don't think having to pass a simple test on the basic safety rules in order to get a gun, or permit for that matter, would be a bad thing. I suppose the argument to that would be the people who need it most probably already have guns, and probably aren't smart enough or even care to understand the rules to begin with. Which is what brought me here in the 1st place.

    In the spirit of the original thread, I am taking responsibility for my own actions and am taking the proper training courses. In the end, personal responsibility is what it's all about anyway I guess...

  26. #50
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    +1 again jklotz

    Your going to be a good addition to this forum.


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