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  1. #1
    rccola712's Avatar
    rccola712 is offline Member
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    'Caliber Debate'

    I just found this article and thought it was an interesting read. He talks about the caliber debate and how its kind of useless one. he basically says what i've read several times here. Thought some of you might enjoy it. I do wish this guy would be more definite, he says probably and might alot, but oh well.

    http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/H...No%20Faith.htm

  2. #2
    mactex is offline Member
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    I like Steve Camp's thought on most things. If you look around the internet you'll find that he posts on a few forums from time to time. He even has his own section on the Texas CHL forums.

  3. #3
    Kyle1337's Avatar
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    I'm not able to view the link, but like I always say, what difference is it going to make if you have two in the chest and one in the head.

  4. #4
    TheReaper's Avatar
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    I'll take a .40 or larger.

  5. #5
    Barryd is offline Junior Member
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    Well placed shots mean more to me than caliber.

    Barry

  6. #6
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    I keep a 357 at the ready, but my 9mm would be ok. A good bullet and a percise shot is all I need. But I can hit some with my 50 through the door.

  7. #7
    nailer is offline Member
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    I recently read an article about calibers. I'll try to find it. Surprisingly, the well known writer,(so well known I forget), said a 22 magnum with its high velocity in a JHP has great stopping power and penetration. Has anyone heard this before?

  8. #8
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is offline Senior Member
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    Anybody who states that a .22 rimfire, even a high-velocity Magnum HP, has "great stopping power" is one taco short of the full combination plate.
    It is useless to debate the merits of good defense cartridges, one against the other; but you must remember that, right in the first place, this statement applies only to good defensive cartridges. There are no modern rimfire cartridges in that group. Not even the rimfire magnums firing HP bullets.

    You can eventually kill someone with a .22 Magnum rimfire HP, but you cannot "stop" someone with it.
    Further, the guy you kill with that .22 will very likely do you a whole lot of damage, before he finally does die.

    Some people believe that the .380 ACP is the absolute minimum in defensive cartridges. Others say that the .38 Special is the absolute minimum. Either of those make the very bottom rung.
    But .22 Magnum rimfire doesn't even come close, not even to the "effectiveness" (if you can call it that) of the .32 ACP, which is a short step below .380, and maybe a long step below .38 Special.

  9. #9
    DJ Niner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rccola712 View Post
    I just found this article and thought it was an interesting read. He talks about the caliber debate and how its kind of useless one. he basically says what i've read several times here. Thought some of you might enjoy it. I do wish this guy would be more definite, he says probably and might alot, but oh well.

    http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/H...No%20Faith.htm
    In the article, Mr Camp states "placement is power."

    I like that, and agree.

    I think I have a new motto/sig line.

  10. #10
    DJ Niner's Avatar
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    Done!
    "Placement is power" -- seen in an article by Stephen A. Camp
    (RIP, Mr. Camp; you will be remembered, and missed)

  11. #11
    Kyle1337's Avatar
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    Placement is power even with a .22, I don't care who ya are, if a piece of metal is traveling 800 FPS or more at you, your in bad shape. Thats why even bb guns are are able to kill ya, rare...but it happens. Recently a child in Arizona I think it was maybe Nevada, killed his parents with a .22 rifle. A guy walked into a nursing home open fired and injured and killed people with a .22, .22 is a piece of metal going very fast, it can kill you, don't take it for granted. Alot of spys especially back in the cold war days usually carried a .22 suppressed and possibly using subsonic rounds going less than 1,000FPS...seems to have done the job I'm sure.

  12. #12
    PhilR. is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle1337 View Post
    Placement is power even with a .22, I don't care who ya are, if a piece of metal is traveling 800 FPS or more at you, your in bad shape. Thats why even bb guns are are able to kill ya, rare...but it happens. Recently a child in Arizona I think it was maybe Nevada, killed his parents with a .22 rifle. A guy walked into a nursing home open fired and injured and killed people with a .22, .22 is a piece of metal going very fast, it can kill you, don't take it for granted. Alot of spys especially back in the cold war days usually carried a .22 suppressed and possibly using subsonic rounds going less than 1,000FPS...seems to have done the job I'm sure.
    The very first autopsy I ever saw was a guy who was killed by a single gunshot to the head. The prelim. x-ray showed the bullet had come to rest inside the far wall of the skull. I thought it might be a .22 since it was fairly small, and that's what it turned out to be.

    Although a .22 would not be my choice for a defensive round (as it would not be for the great majority of CHL's), I certainly do not discount what a well-placed round of any cailber can do.....

  13. #13
    PhilR. is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barryd View Post
    Well placed shots mean more to me than caliber.

    Barry
    +1, which is why I prefer a higher capacity than a larger bullet. Higher capacity means you get more attempts to put the bullet in the right place. After all, the size of the bullet means nothing if it's not put into the right place....

  14. #14
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    OK, folks, let's get real.

    A .22 Magnum that enters the eye socket and proceeds into the brain would be an excellent "stop" shot.
    A .22 LR that hit dead-center on the larynx would provide a pretty quick stop.

    So now, here's the question:
    From a reasonable distance, for instance five yards, and in a save-your-life panic...
    Can you reliably center-hit a target the size of an eye socket?
    Can you reliably center-hit a target the size of a person's larynx?

    Be truthful with yourself, now.
    Maybe go out to the range and try it. Take a friend along, and have him/her scream at you when you are to draw and fire, and than continue to scream in your ear while you present the weapon and take the shot.
    How did you do? Honestly.

  15. #15
    PhilR. is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    OK, folks, let's get real.

    A .22 Magnum that enters the eye socket and proceeds into the brain would be an excellent "stop" shot.
    A .22 LR that hit dead-center on the larynx would provide a pretty quick stop.

    So now, here's the question:
    From a reasonable distance, for instance five yards, and in a save-your-life panic...
    Can you reliably center-hit a target the size of an eye socket?
    Can you reliably center-hit a target the size of a person's larynx?

    Be truthful with yourself, now.
    Maybe go out to the range and try it. Take a friend along, and have him/her scream at you when you are to draw and fire, and than continue to scream in your ear while you present the weapon and take the shot.
    How did you do? Honestly.
    Dude - time to get your girly panties out of a bunch. No one is talking about condoning the use of a .22 for defense purposes. IOW, just talking about what can happen with one isn't the same as telling others that it makes a good choice for a defense caliber. Jeeezzz...

  16. #16
    nailer is offline Member
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    The article I referred to was written by Jeff Quinn on Gunblast.com. He states, although the 22 magnum is not my first choice for self-defense, with the right bullet , it has just as much penetration as some larger calibers.
    He is saying it's not he best (obviously), but better than one would think.
    I would rather have my 357mag or 38 snubby, but on the trail the 22 mag might come in handy.

  17. #17
    PhilR. is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by nailer View Post
    The article I referred to was written by Jeff Quinn on Gunblast.com. He states, although the 22 magnum is not my first choice for self-defense, with the right bullet , it has just as much penetration as some larger calibers.
    He is saying it's not he best (obviously), but better than one would think.
    I would rather have my 357mag or 38 snubby, but on the trail the 22 mag might come in handy.
    I could see why he would not pick the .22mag as his first choice, and I'll bet that it would not be his 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th choice either. Obviously it's not your first choice either, nor would it be mine. In fact, unless it's the only thing available, no one in their right mind would pick it over a larger centerfire caliber.

    But penetrate it will, and if that was the only thing I had around to defend myself, I would not hesitate to use it. I'm sure Mr. Quinn would do the same, and I would bet that you would too.

    PhilR.

    To other members of the forum -- we are merely talking (writing) about the .22 mag. We are not, and I repeat, we are not saying that this is what a person should go out and purchase in a defensive hangun. That is fodder for another discussion.....

  18. #18
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilR. View Post
    Dude - time to get your girly panties out of a bunch. No one is talking about condoning the use of a .22 for defense purposes...
    Oh, yeah?
    Go back and read some of the previous posts a little more carefully, dude.
    And don't let your little-boy pull-ups get into a bunch either.

    BTW: Don't call me "dude." I probably ride a horse better than you, I don't wear pseudo-cowboy clothing, and I know which way the brim on my hat goes, to give me the best shade.

  19. #19
    PhilR. is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    Oh, yeah?
    Go back and read some of the previous posts a little more carefully, dude.
    And don't let your little-boy pull-ups get into a bunch either.

    BTW: Don't call me "dude." I probably ride a horse better than you, I don't wear pseudo-cowboy clothing, and I know which way the brim on my hat goes, to give me the best shade.
    That's it? That's all you can come up with? How original.....

    Dude, if you were to go back through this thread, you would find that not a single person here said that we or anyone else should go out and get a .22, nor has anyone made the statement that a .22mag makes a great choice for a defensive caliber. That a lot of interesting conversation about it's use has transpired does not an endorsement make. Also, stating that one would use a .22mag if a forced occasion arises does not constitute an endorsement either. Unfortunately, you cannot distinguish between the two. Pretty sad for a full-grown man*.

    *I'm assuming here...

  20. #20
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Phil, if all you can think of is to disparage other posters on this forum, you are acting like an immature fool.
    Dude, you're on your own here. I'm done with you.

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