Limp Wristing and Testing.
Devil's Advocate on board. As a 30 year ( all active duty) veteran of the USMC, I am quite familiar with 1911's and Berettas. I personaly own and fire (quite often) a Glock 23 and a BERSA Duotone .380 Thunder. Both of these are excellent pistols and very accurate. So yes I do like SemiAutos.
However I carry S&W J-frames for EDC.
Before everybodygoes ballistic, and screams about how XDs and 1911s are the only real guns out there, let me make my point and throw out a bit of a friendly challenge .
I am a graduate of Gunsite (long ago in my youth, when the "Colonel" was still the Chief Instructor) and fired Match Pistol and Rifle with the Marine Corps throughout my career. I also served as a Sniper for three years in SEA. I'm not a newbie, so keep this experience based, don't quote books on me.
1.All of the gun tests, both formal and informal, quote thousands of rounds fired with no failures except for those discounted for shooter error in limp wristing. I am sorry, but guys this has become pretty much standard in your reports.
2. My experience, with both long and handguns in actual combat has been that in real situation you do not assume the "range" or "school" stance. You assume a natural body stance, regardless of your formal training and/or practice.
3. The scenario I foresee as my SHTF situation as a civilian will be with my hands full of groceries in the Walmart Parking lot at night. In short I will not be assuming either a "Weaver" or "Iscoceles" stance, but rather shooting from a bent over position at car trunk level.
In all liklihood, in a true SD situation I will be firing from a "sloppy" quickly assumed position other than the classic "school stance" and will undoubtedly be shooting with a bent wrist. I will probably not be able to extend the gun for fear of having it slapped away or grabbed. In short "limp wristing" would be expected in normal hasty SD situations.
It is suggested that tests be conducted under realistic conditions such as the below listed:
- Weapon held alongside body, bent wrist.
- Weapon held while shooter on back, no lockup of arm or wrist.
- Weapon held cross body , shooter bent over (Groceries in trunk scenario)
That these tests consist of a minimum of 5000 rounds per make and model of weapon. 5 Rounds must be fired in repetition without any failures whatsoever, failure to feed, failure to extract or failure to fire. (5 shots given to show delivery of firepower equal to smaller frame revolver) Different individual weapons of same make and model would be acceptable as this would give a more realistic test of that make and model's capabilities over several individual purchases.
That the weapon be of carry size and not a full sized service or match weapon.
That the weapon be readily available NIB and not a specialized gunsmithed weapon (trigger work excepted). We are looking for a CCW weapon we all could afford.
Proven ammunition failures to be only allowed alibis. Ammo failure cannot be assumed, ammo is to be examined and source of failure given. Firing to be spaced over period of time to allow for normal cleaning and maintenance of weapons. Different shooters could sponsor different weapons, it would not be necessary for one shooter or group to conduct tests, (financial and budget constraints) but an organized team system with proper oversight should be utilized.
The results of these tests be put in a proper APA format with full details be published on this forum. ( Yes I am a Science Teacher)
This is not a statement of the superiority of the revolver. It is a chance for your community to lay a scintific, objective argument of reliability of SemiAuto when fired under realistic conditions. The test should also prove of great value to those choosing CCW semiautos.
I would expect a project of this detail and size to take 2 years to complete, but situation reports of current results could be published on the forum to keep us up to date. This would be an ongoing project and forum.
This a suggestion for a scientific test, not a dare, so only serious believers need apply, "armchair war story tellers" need to keep their unqualified conclusions out of this discussion. I believe there is/are probably semiauto weapon(s) out there that can meet this challenge, but I also believe we may all be surprized at which one(s) they are. It would probably serve best to pick a Team Leader to consolidate and remark/rebut on behalf of team on this forum.
I believe results from this test would prove invaluable to the Semiauto CCW community.
I took a basic firearms class back in the spring to get my CCW and each paritcipant had to go through numerous "action shots" 3 of which you mentioned below.
At the time, I took the class with an M9. It was a very enlightening class and no we did not shoot 5k rounds but did shoot nearly 500 - 489 to be exact. Had one FTF which concluded to be a dud primer as the primer was struck and appeared to be full contact.
I discovered the M9 was doable but not very realistic for trying to pull a full size pistol from under a shirt, jacket, etc. at least for me.
After the class, I ended up purchasing a Kahr PM9, an SA XD9sc, Ruger LCP and this last fall a Beretta PX4sc 9.
I carry the PX4sc about 50% of the time, PM9 20% of the time and the LCP the rest. LCP mostly during the summer due to lighter clothing.
No experience with a revolver though.
Thanks for the thought provoking discussion this will lead to.
One of the reasons I required the CCW sized pistol was my own experience at Gunsite. I took several subcourses and used a MKIV (full sized) Colt, A Colt Commander and a Colt Officer's Model. The MKIV and
Commander performed flawlessly while the Officer's Model was a nightmare of FTFs (Failure to Feed) and FTEs. I am curious to see how the smaller autos work in test. My own experience with the Officer's Model was reason for me not going any smaller than the G23. I think a lot of questions will be answered by test. I personaly hope that a semi auto(s) does/do pass test as I would prefer the firepower of an auto in my EDC.
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