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  1. #1
    Don357's Avatar
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    To make a point.

    Here's another "Which One" poll. Please be honest, this is a legitamate poll.
    Which full size polymer frame handgun, for the sake of argument we'll say .40S&W, based on reliability, durability, accuracy, and general shootability "out of the box", is the better, not the most popular, better.

    1. CZ 75 and clones (Witness, Baby Eagle, etc.)
    2. HK
    3. S'field XD and XDm
    4. Glocks
    5. Kimber KPD
    6. S&W Sigma
    7. Ruger P series
    8. Taurus 24/7
    9. Sig
    10. Beretta PX-4


    I intended to post a poll on this, and all input is welcome.

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  3. #2
    Growler67's Avatar
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    SiG has 2 poly's currently available.

    I've fired the SiG P250 in .40 as well as 9mm but chose to own a SiGPro 2022 in 9mm (also available in .40 and .357SIG - no conversions available between calibers in this model series). It simply felt better in my hands and won out (after several years of "test driving") over all the polymer frame handguns I tried. USP, M&P, Glocks, P2000, XD and all the rest. Some had features I liked, many had features I did not. None of them had "everything" for me to consider it a "be all, end all" epitomy of polymer frames. The SP had the best overall fit and feel for my hands, came in a caliber that is my personal preference (and most proficient with) in 9mm and I got a sweet deal ($) on a German produced French contract overrun.

  4. #3
    TOF's Avatar
    TOF
    TOF is offline Senior Member
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    Number 11

  5. #4
    johnr is offline Member
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    no FNP?

  6. #5
    Ptarmigan is offline Member
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    1. CZ 75 and clones (Witness, Baby Eagle, etc.)
    2. HK
    3. S'field XD and XDm
    4. Glocks
    5. Kimber KPD
    6. S&W Sigma
    7. Ruger P series
    8. Taurus 24/7
    9. Sig
    10. Beretta PX-4
    Of the makes listed, I can say that from my own personal experience the Glock wins hands down over the Sig Sauer, the Heckler und Koch, the Sigma and the Ruger. I do not know enough about the CZ, the Springfield, the Kimber, the Taurus or the Beretta to rate them against the Glock.

    I have seen a lot of .40 caliber service weapons fired as my time as a law enforcement firearms instructor and the only weapon that I never saw a problem with was the Glock 22. I personally think that this pistol will go down in history as the model 10 of the 21st century. It is used by more law enforcement personnel than any other pistol today.

    All that being said, I carry a Glock 19 (9mm) and a Smith & Wesson model 640 (.38 Special).

  7. #6
    Don357's Avatar
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    My point is starting to be made. The gun that sells the best may not be the best or the least expensive.
    Let's keep this going.

  8. #7
    Ptarmigan is offline Member
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    With all due respect, Don, I see no point being made so far. I, for example stated two different points and if you must consider them both together it actually shows you that the most popular (the Glock) also performs the best.

    Anyway, I hope you data collecting continues to work for you. I, for one, have a very hard time seeing any point at all based on the answers so far.

    Maybe I can help you a bit further. Of the common service weapons used by law enforcement, for example, the Glock, the Sig Sauer and the H&K are the top three. Of the three, the H&K costs the most, closely followed by the Sig Sauer, and the Glock is a distant third with regard to price.

    Of the three the Glock is the most used, in part due to the low cost but also because it has the best track record of the three as well. For the police officer on the street who may have to buy his/her own weapon it is nice to know that not only does the Glock cost about half of the other two, but it is a better service weapon.

    I have seen far more Glocks used in LE, but have never seen a problem with one. I have seen several problems with Sig Sauers, and a lot with H&K. For me, the numbers speak for themselves. The best story to go along with this is my first FI school. I carried a Glock 22 and my partner a Sig Sauer P229 .40S&W. My partner had so many problems with the Sig that he ordered a Glock 22 the day we got back from the school.

    All that being said, maybe I am missing your point, or misunderstanding something, so please forgive me if I have.

  9. #8
    PhilR. is offline Member
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    Until you can determine how many rounds is "reliability", and quantify how long is "durability", and say how small is "accuracy" and standardize a subjective determination such as "general shootability", then neither I nor no one else can say which handgun is "better".

    Therefore, your poll is in reality just a popularity poll.....

  10. #9
    bruce333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don357 View Post
    My point is starting to be made. The gun that sells the best may not be the best or the least expensive.
    Let's keep this going.
    Well...yeah...it's all subjective...

    What I consider to be the best or better gun will depend on what I intend to use it for, how it feels in my hand, how well I shoot it, how reliable that individual gun is, etc....
    Bruce, Life Member: NRA, NCRPA, GRNC, GOA

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    "I personally think we developed language because of our deep inner need to complain."--Jane Wagner
    "The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom."
    -Isaac Asimov

  11. #10
    xd9atl's Avatar
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    when i got my XD out of the box, it shot great! granted its not a .40 and ive not shot some of the models you listed, but i thought the XD was amazing!

  12. #11
    Black Metal's Avatar
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    The only CZ 75 that has a polymer frame is the phantom and It doesn't have a long enough track record to be on the poll. I don't think you should group the 75 and all of its clones in one selection

  13. #12
    Spartan's Avatar
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    Of those, I'd take the HK.

  14. #13
    IndyRob's Avatar
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    What about the S&W M&P .40?

    I know you guys are fans of Glocks, and think they are the bee's knees, but in the LEO community, you don't hear the term Sig leg, or H&K leg.
    And Glock practically gives their hardware away, whereas neither Sig nor H&K does, so I'm not surprised that there's a Glock bias in the LEO community.

  15. #14
    DevilsJohnson is offline Senior Member
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    Sold 2 Glocks when I got my first Sigma. I never regretted that move. I know..Many will think I'm crazy but that's what I did and would do again.

  16. #15
    TheReaper's Avatar
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    Taurus 24/7 .

  17. #16
    xd9atl's Avatar
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    wow, there is a very differing opinion on here! lol

    a lot for you to think about Don357

  18. #17
    Ptarmigan is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyRob
    I know you guys are fans of Glocks, and think they are the bee's knees, but in the LEO community, you don't hear the term Sig leg, or H&K leg.
    And Glock practically gives their hardware away, whereas neither Sig nor H&K does, so I'm not surprised that there's a Glock bias in the LEO community.
    Please read my posts again. Cost is not everything. The fact that the Glocks are much more reliable than the Sigs and H&Ks has a lot to do with the Glocks' reputation. I am speaking from my own experiences teaching firearms at both the department and state academy levels. I saw problems with the Sigs and H&Ks but never with the Glocks. Also, I never saw anyone shoot themselves in the leg nor did I see a kaboom or whatever that is called. I have fired and observed others fire tens of thousands of rounds, most of them .40S&W and most of them with Glocks. So based on what I have personally seen, the Glock is a better weapon than the Sigs and H&Ks and I will always pick a Glock over any other semi-auto.

    Now, I am not saying that my experiences are typical, but based on what I hear from others, they are as I am not the only one sold on the Glock be THE choice for service pistol. Nor am I saying that Sigs or H&Ks are bad guns; they great guns, just not at great as Glock in my opinion.

    Last but not least, I never heard the term "Glock leg" as a member of the law enforcement community. I am pretty sure that is an internet term like kaboom, phase three malfunction and so on and so forth.

    I did, however, hear all sorts of choice words when several Sigs jammed when they got too dirty and had to be cleaned several times in one day of training. I also heard such words when a deputy shot the slide of his brand new H&K USP across the pavement. The list goes on and on. To be fair, I did actually see a Glock problem once. The front sight got ripped off during a tactical reload drill. That is it.

    Of course, I do not know what your professional background etc. is, but my opinions are based on what I have seen and been part of, not what I read on the internet or in gun magazines. I do not claim to know it all, but I think I am intelligent enough to draw conclusions from facts.

    My conclusion remains that the Glock is the best semi-auto on the market for a law enforcement duty weapon. Of course I have been retired for five years so there may have been developments in firearms technology. For example, I do not know much about the Springfield XD or the M&P line from Smith & Wesson.

  19. #18
    PhilR. is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyRob View Post
    in the LEO community, you don't hear the term Sig leg, or H&K leg.
    Care to explain what "Sig leg" or "H&K leg" means?

    PhilR.

  20. #19
    IndyRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptarmigan View Post
    Please read my posts again. Cost is not everything. The fact that the Glocks are much more reliable than the Sigs and H&Ks has a lot to do with the Glocks' reputation. I am speaking from my own experiences teaching firearms at both the department and state academy levels. I saw problems with the Sigs and H&Ks but never with the Glocks. Also, I never saw anyone shoot themselves in the leg nor did I see a kaboom or whatever that is called. I have fired and observed others fire tens of thousands of rounds, most of them .40S&W and most of them with Glocks. So based on what I have personally seen, the Glock is a better weapon than the Sigs and H&Ks and I will always pick a Glock over any other semi-auto.

    Now, I am not saying that my experiences are typical, but based on what I hear from others, they are as I am not the only one sold on the Glock be THE choice for service pistol. Nor am I saying that Sigs or H&Ks are bad guns; they great guns, just not at great as Glock in my opinion.

    Last but not least, I never heard the term "Glock leg" as a member of the law enforcement community. I am pretty sure that is an internet term like kaboom, phase three malfunction and so on and so forth.

    I did, however, hear all sorts of choice words when several Sigs jammed when they got too dirty and had to be cleaned several times in one day of training. I also heard such words when a deputy shot the slide of his brand new H&K USP across the pavement. The list goes on and on. To be fair, I did actually see a Glock problem once. The front sight got ripped off during a tactical reload drill. That is it.

    Of course, I do not know what your professional background etc. is, but my opinions are based on what I have seen and been part of, not what I read on the internet or in gun magazines. I do not claim to know it all, but I think I am intelligent enough to draw conclusions from facts.

    My conclusion remains that the Glock is the best semi-auto on the market for a law enforcement duty weapon. Of course I have been retired for five years so there may have been developments in firearms technology. For example, I do not know much about the Springfield XD or the M&P line from Smith & Wesson.
    I'm very familliar with Sig 226's, not so much with the HK's and it's been my experience the Sigs I've experienced were quite reliable.
    I'm not doubting your experience, or judgement, in fact, it appears my resume is thin compared to yours, that being said, when it comes to Glock, it seems you either are a G guy, or not a G guy. I'm simply not a G guy.

  21. #20
    IndyRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilR. View Post
    Care to explain what "Sig leg" or "H&K leg" means?

    PhilR.
    There is no "Sig leg, or HK leg" that was my point.

    Glock leg happens when you accidentally discharge into your leg or foot while drawing or holstering your Glock.

  22. #21
    BeefyBeefo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyRob View Post
    Glock leg happens when you accidentally discharge into your leg or foot while drawing or holstering your Glock.
    There shouldn't be such a thing as "Glock leg" either. This type of scenario could happen with a Sig or HK or any other pistol for that matter, considering it is most commonly caused by operator error or improperly handling the pistol.

    -Jeff-

  23. #22
    Ptarmigan is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyRob
    I'm very familliar with Sig 226's, not so much with the HK's and it's been my experience the Sigs I've experienced were quite reliable.
    The Sig 226 is a great gun and very reliable. In my experience the Glock is more reliable.

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyRob
    I'm not doubting your experience, or judgement, in fact, it appears my resume is thin compared to yours,
    I did not mean to imply that you did not believe me, sorry if it came off that way. By the way, are you on the job?

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyRob
    that being said, when it comes to Glock, it seems you either are a G guy, or not a G guy. I'm simply not a G guy.
    Fair enough. I am very much a G guy, just in case there was any doubt. I would carry a Sig, H&K, Beretta or any of the other common duty weapons with no problem. They are all great guns. As long, however, as I am free to choose, I choose Glock.

  24. #23
    JeffWard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyRob
    What about the S&W M&P .40?
    I agree, you can't leave the M&P off the list.

    For me, a toss-up between the M&P and XD. I'm a huge XD fan, but my new M&P is growing on me.

    JW

  25. #24
    IndyRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptarmigan View Post
    I did not mean to imply that you did not believe me, sorry if it came off that way. By the way, are you on the job?

    Yes, I'm a newly Deputized Marshal here in Indiana

  26. #25
    Don357's Avatar
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    OK, "Glock Leg " can happen with any "Safe Action" trigger system such as is on the Glocks, S&W's, and several other pistols. After all the Sigma series S&W, is a copy/clone of the Glock. The Glock company even filed a suit against S&W when they first released the Sigma pistols. And I apologize about leaving the M&P off the list. It was meerly an oversight on my part. And also , as you can see, I left off the polymer framed 1911's. This was on purpose as they are a totally different animal.

    Now, I know that I'm going to catch some flak about this, but here are my findings so far.

    1) There is a definite bias in favor of Glock. But, those who are singing Glocks praises the loudest, have never tried much of anything else, and are going on the fact that because many LEO Depts issue them, they must be the best thing going. However, they are oblivious to the fact that civilian police depts operate on a municipal budget that is mandated by people who probably have never even held a gun, much less fired one or had to intrust their life to one. All they see is dollar signs. I'm not saying Glocks are bad guns, just not one I would buy or use unless I was like so many LEO's and forced to do so by my dept. Anyway, if they are so good, why doesn't the US military use them as the primary handgun of the US forces?

    2) There are as many opinions as there is stars in the sky. And while it's impossible to officially determine the age of many of the posters/members on this forum, judging from many of the posts I've read, alot of the "experience" some are basing their opinions on, come from RPG Video games. While others get it from "I saw in a movie...", or "So and so said..." and even "I read it on a forum". There are lots of legitimate opinions here and I value each one. We just have to be cautious about which ones we believe and do our own research too.

    3) There are lots of fantistic guns on the market, and many of them are being ignored and/or being put down because, a) they don't cost enough, b) there's a "guilt by association" thing (as in the case of Ruger and Bill Ruger's stance against hi-cap mags), which has absolutly nothing to do with the quality of the gun. And, c) they're just not cool looking or exotic enough. I run across this with guitars too.

    4) Many people have the mindset that their's is the only opinion that counts and anybody that thinks differently is stupid.


    OK, lets keep this going a while longer. I'm getting some great stuff, and will update my findings later.
    Thanks for participating,
    Don

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