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  1. #1
    logan85's Avatar
    logan85 is offline Junior Member
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    First pistol time =)

    I have fired a decent variety of pistols, but I don't currently own my own pistol. I am not yet 21 (only a couple months to go) and thus I don't own my own pistol, my Dad currently owns a Springfield Arms Ultra-Compact 1911 .45ACP, Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver, and a Glock 17. My best friend owned a 357 SIG P226, and a .38 Special Colt revolver (I think he said it was a "trooper"). I've fired all the pistols listed a bit, I think I've put about 1,000 rounds through the revolver, and probbably 200 for all the others.

    Lately, I'm beginning to dispise the revolver- it's haveing serious issuses with ammo not going off when I try to fire double action, but thats another issue to settle elesewhere. Last time I took it out and fired 30 rounds, not a single round fired double action- they all fired single action, the time before that, I fired every round double action and only 1 failed to go off (which was better than what it had been doing. . .)

    I've been researching balistics a bit, and I believe I like the .40 S&W the best.

    I think I'll start by listing what I dislike about the guns I have (while, I've already done that for the revolver. . .). I don't believe these are necessairly bad guns, I believe their are good things about them, but in describing my preferences I will list what I dislike.

    I dislike the 1911 because it is very difficult to dis-assemble for cleaning, especially in comparison to the Glock. Another thing I dislike about the 1911 is the contols seem un-necessairly difficult to operate, the hammer has an amazingly heavy pull- I like being able to fire single action for a light trigger pull and thus more accuracy (at least, that has proven true on the revolver) but the contorls on the 1911 just seem overly difficult to use. I cant think of any other pistol I've fondeled with such stiff controls. I'm also not very happy with the 6 round magazines that the ultra-compact uses (I think the standard 1911's have either 6 or 8 round magazines?).

    I don't like the Glock 'cause the rounds are two little and the pistol is too light, overall it feels like a toy. I'm also not a fan of the lack of external safety features on the glock. I dislike the lack of weight that the Glock has, and I'm not very fond of polymer frames. I don't think polymer frames are a bad thing, but as long as I can get a metal I want it.

    The only complaint I have for the SIG P226 I've handeled is the de-cocking lever. It's a slight bit difficult to reach, and it has an very long travel.

    After handeling some Beretta 92/96s, I believe I want one. I like the metal frame, and I like the controls. I'm not sure wether I want a FS or G model, but that cen be decided later. Does this seem like a good or bad decision? I think the SIG is a nice pistol too, and a biased source of mine has been attempting to convince me that the SIGs are more reliable. I haven't had a chance to fondel very man USPs (I think I've seen one so far), but I'm not a big fan of the polymer frame. I've been lead to believe that Walther and Smith & Wesson auto-pistols are not quite as reliable as the other brands? I haven't looked at many other Springfield Armory pistols, mainly 'cause they just seem to be even more rare than the H&Ks.

    So I think it's down to Beretta 96 vs SIG P226. . .

    L J

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  3. #2
    breech is offline Junior Member
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    Welcome! I'm not trying to sound like an ass.. Take it as constructive critisism. You have alot to learn about the different formats available.

    You cannot judge EVERYTHING by handling just a few guns. Have you handled and shot a premium or custom 1911? World of a difference. Controls are easy to use and engage/disengage. It's all with practice. Practice practice practice. The thumb safety should be second nature.
    As far as disassembly, it's a piece of cake after you get it down and know what you are doing.

    Glock rounds are too little? I have pictures I can provide of you of expanded hollowpoints. I can link you to a guy who shot himself with a 9mm. I'm assuming again you are basing your opinions on your dad's G17. There are other models besides the G17.

    An alternative is the DAK model on the Sig 226. You don't have to worry about the decocking lever. There is none.

    Springfield Armory pistols are rare?

  4. #3
    logan85's Avatar
    logan85 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by breech
    Welcome! I'm not trying to sound like an ass.. Take it as constructive critisism. You have alot to learn about the different formats available.
    Fair enough, I will agree that I have a lot to learn, which is why I'm hoping to find out information here.

    You cannot judge EVERYTHING by handling just a few guns. Have you handled and shot a premium or custom 1911? World of a difference. Controls are easy to use and engage/disengage. It's all with practice. Practice practice practice. The thumb safety should be second nature.
    As far as disassembly, it's a piece of cake after you get it down and know what you are doing.
    I will admit to not handeling or shooting a wider variety of 1911s. I dislike the .45ACP cartridge due to the lower capactiy and thus I have not had much desire to handle the 1911s. Shooting the guns would proove even more difficult for me to do. I will take your advice and try handeling more 1911s to see if the controls are not quite so overly stiff. As far as dis-assembly of the 1911,

    I must maintain my opinion based on what few 1911s I have handeled that the dis-assembly is more difficult than other pistols. I know there are more important aspects of a gun than the ease of field stripping, I simply stated that is something I dislike about the 1911 I currently have access to.

    Glock rounds are too little? I have pictures I can provide of you of expanded hollowpoints. I can link you to a guy who shot himself with a 9mm. I'm assuming again you are basing your opinions on your dad's G17. There are other models besides the G17.
    Well, when I said that 9mm luger rounds are too small, I meant they are smaller than what I would like to have in a pistol of my own. I base that on the ballistics (particularly energy), the fact that the FBI now issues .40 S&W pistols to graduates from their accademy, and reports of disapointment of the round size among soldiers who were issued a M9/Beretta 92 9mm luger pistol for use in Iraq. I simply would rather have the larger size and more power of a .40 S&W. Based on the fact that most pistols I have looked at which come in 9mm size are typically also offered in .40 S&W I believe the .40 S&W would be a good choice.

    Also, if your referring to other Glock pistols, I am aware of the Glock 22 and 23 (some others too) which fire .40 S&W rounds. However, I do believe that the loading ramp in Glock pistols chambered for .40 S&W rounds (and possibly other sizes too?) is enlarged to a point where a large portion of the round is left un-supported (more so than other pistols?), and thus Glock does not recomend the use of reloaded rounds. If that is true, I see that small flaw as something I would prefer not to have in a pistol of my own.

    An alternative is the DAK model on the Sig 226. You don't have to worry about the decocking lever. There is none.
    I would prefer an akward decocking lever over none at all.

    Springfield Armory pistols are rare?
    I did say that I have not seen many Springfield pistols in the shops where I have been looking, nor have I seen many at the gun shows. Granted in the extremely rural area I live in, gun-shops are not very common, I do have to travel quite far too find even small shops, the closest, decent sized shop that I know of is 60 miles away.

    L J

  5. #4
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    My Gun Is Prettier Than Yours!!

    Careful Grasshopper, never tell a man you don't like his brand of gun or that he has ugly kids!

    To confuse the issue even more try a Israili Desert Eagle. Wife just bought one and it shoots great.

    Also remember, your gun interests will continue to evolve. Next month you may be into skeet shooting and begin to drool over fine shotguns, then you can't live without a AR15, etc, etc....... It never ends!

    Glad to see another bright young man interested in firearms. Sounds like you take the sport seriously and you've gained a fair amount of gun savy for your age. And, more importantly, I know you wont vote gun grabbers into political office when you vote.

  6. #5
    logan85's Avatar
    logan85 is offline Junior Member
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    Re: My Gun Is Prettier Than Yours!!

    Quote Originally Posted by TxPhantom
    Careful Grasshopper, never tell a man you don't like his brand of gun or that he has ugly kids!

    To confuse the issue even more try a Israili Desert Eagle. Wife just bought one and it shoots great.

    Also remember, your gun interests will continue to evolve. Next month you may be into skeet shooting and begin to drool over fine shotguns, then you can't live without a AR15, etc, etc....... It never ends!

    Glad to see another bright young man interested in firearms. Sounds like you take the sport seriously and you've gained a fair amount of gun savy for your age. And, more importantly, I know you wont vote gun grabbers into political office when you vote.
    I think I should calrify that I don't really dislike the 1911s in general, nor do I really dislike Glock. I think they are each nice in their own ways, but for the start of my gun collection I'd prefer either a Beretta or a SIG. I was hoping that I would find information here to help me choose which of the two I'd like.

    As far as other weapons go, I do look forward to the day when I can have an AR-15 of my own, a Benelli M4 would be nice too. Unfortunately, colleting firearms seems to be an expensive hobby.

    L J

  7. #6
    1911driver is offline Junior Member
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    handguns

    Logan,
    Although you selected two fine firearms as those that have made the "final cut" for purchase....you have selected two of the most difficult firearms to learn on....!!! Your problems will only start to begin with them. Both are complex to operate and your frustration level will rise more than it is now. Do yourself a big favor...do some more reseach and select a simpler gun to shoot for now. Sig and Beretta will still be around in the years ahead.... Good luck..

  8. #7
    Reliable's Avatar
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    Re: handguns

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911driver
    Logan,
    Although you selected two fine firearms as those that have made the "final cut" for purchase....you have selected two of the most difficult firearms to learn on....!!! Your problems will only start to begin with them. Both are complex to operate .
    I tend to disagree with 1911driver I think the Sigs are an easy pistol to shoot and the added safety of a DA/SA action. I cant speak for the Beretta but my Sigs have been a dream to improved shooting.

  9. #8
    DennyCrane's Avatar
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    I used to have opinions on guns for new people - Now, I have seen so many people learn on different platforms that I don't think it matters too much. I would probably recommend a manual safety for a newbie. But, that's about it.

  10. #9
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    Difficult or easy to shoot is purely subjective. That's why there are so many to choose from... Aint it great!

    Your choices Logan are sound ones. I might disagree on some points, but I can't argue with your logic...

    The 1911 is a challenge, but I love how it is designed. To me, disassembling and reassembling it is part of the fun of cleaning it. The 1911 was ahead of it's time, in it's time... The Sig or Beretta are no doubt faster to give a thorough cleaning to, but then they are newer designs...

    The .40 is a good choice for defense. But so would be the 9mm... One thing you might want to consider is that the 9mm is a LOT cheaper to shoot. That translate into being able to shoot more... ie.. More bang for the buck... (never consider it to be a wussy cartridge, even the .22 is deadly)

    On the Walther issues, I can say, I haven't had any issues! The P99 is my carry weapon, and I have other Walther's. Now you've heard the other side to that story...

    The controls on any weapon will become second nature with use. What may seem awkward at first may ultimately be easier in the long run. I found that out just a couple of years ago with the Walther P99. It's controls are radically different than what I was used to and at first, I didn't care for it. Now, I prefer their placement to all of the others... For me, the P99 has become the epitome of user friendly... Like I said earlier, it's all subjective...

    Welcome to the ever expanding hobby of shooting. It's a blast!


    Rerum novarum cupidus!

  11. #10
    logan85's Avatar
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    Well, Monday I was in a gun store in Denver CO, called Fireing Line. Amazing place, had one display case full of 9mms, one full of .40S&Ws, one full of .45s, about 3 or 4 full full of fevolvers. Far better selection than the gun stores in southwest KS. I successfully fondeled every pistol I can think of, all in .40 S&W, H&K USP, S&W M&P, S&W P990, Walther P99, SIG P229 (and 226 DAK), Springfield XD, and three Beretta 96s (vertec, steel, and elite II).

    The SIG grip seem'd like it was a bit larger than all the other pistols, and I'm still not very fond of it's decocking lever.

    Of all those guns, I think can say I would like to own an XD, USP, or Beretta. The USP had a magazine release which was difficult to operate (though I could get used to that) and it's hammer lacked a spur. . . The XD lacked the hammer altogother, I know thats not a bad thing, but I like haveing a hammer. I would still love to have a collection consisting of all three pistols, but based on a combination of the controls, my desire for a non-plastic frame, and looks too, I must choose the Beretta. Now I just have to wait a few (96) days till I can legally own my own handgun.

    L J

  12. #11
    DennyCrane's Avatar
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    You should use your trigger finger for the mag release on the HK. Actually, after a while, it becomes easier, and is a better design than the typical button release.

  13. #12
    1911driver is offline Junior Member
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    first gun

    Reliable,
    I tend to disagree with your assertion that you disagree with my assertion regarding the simplicity of Sig's. First of all, for a new user the arrary and location of control levers tends to be confusing to the new user. I have worked with students who have dropped their magazine trying to decock the weapon. The atrocious double action trigger pull for the first round causes all kinds of accuracy problems for the beginning student. Yes, you as an experienced shooter, probably are able to overcome these vagaries on these weapons and don't have to deal with them. My comments were directed to the author and his questions about his 'final cut" and to the fact that these weapons are more complex than his level of expertise, not shooters of your stripe.......

  14. #13
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    I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure they make a larger mag release for the USP. I've been contemplating obtaining one for my USP Tactical in .45ACP. That is one of my peeves about the USP. I've tried the trigger finger thing and it helps a bit. Other than that, I'm pretty happy with my USP.

  15. #14
    Method's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennyCrane
    You should use your trigger finger for the mag release on the HK. Actually, after a while, it becomes easier, and is a better design than the typical button release.
    I've handled the USP a few times when renting the 9mm and .40 and I love the magazine release. I think it's altogether different than all the others, and to me that's what makes it cool.

  16. #15
    Reliable's Avatar
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    logan85 More than anything else, you as the user need to be comfortable with the firearm and be confident and competent with its function. It starts first with the grip and accessing the controls in a safe and reliable maner. Only your hands, not the advice of others will be able to answer the burning question. Then comes the shooting experience gained by safe practice.

    I just went through this all with my son who just recently purchased his first pistol. Good familiarity must be attained before a round is chambered to avoid mishandling such as the dropping of the mag that 1911driver mentioned in an above post. At the start I would recommend shooting only in single action mode until your experience and confidence builds.( When I say confidence, I refer to your ability to hit point of aim not your handling of the pistol. ALWAYS be safe, being too comfortable is what can lead to accidental or negligent discharges ). Once your experience builds then start moving toward DA. It takes time to develop the correct grip and muscle coordination. Once you get it down then practice, practice, practice. Good Luck

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    logan85's Avatar
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    1911 driver, with all do respect, I am fully aware of the fact that a DA/SA pistol like the SIG or Beretta's are a tiny more complex than a Springfield XD, Glock, or other pistols. However, I don't believe such pistols are overly complex, I like the flexability that the DA/SA fireing system offers. I have not owned many pistols, however I have been around quite a few, I have a ton of practice on a 686 revolver, and I do plan to learn how to properly use whatever pistol I choose to get. The controls have been one of my main considerations in falling in love with the Beretta 96.

    A SA only system like on a Glock, M&P or Springfield XD is nice in the sense that a person can grab the pistol and have a nice light trigger pull to fire the gun every time. However, I do believe the DA/SA fireing system does happen to be a tiny bit safer than a SA only system.

    L J

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    Hal8000's Avatar
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    Shopping like you are is a lot of fun Logan. I even enjoy it when the pistol is not for me... When it's all said and done, your the one laying out the bucks, your the one that needs to be happy. It's going to be your gun!
    Between now and when you actually purchase it, try and shoot as many different pistols that you can. It should convince you your choice is riight...

    Kind of like what Ben Franklin said about marriage: "Keep your eyes wide open before marriage, and half shut after." :wink:

  19. #18
    Speed is offline Junior Member
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    I had a 1911, a luger, and a broomhandle Mauser. I currently have a Beretta 92fs and a Jetfire .25. I have a 8040F at the FFl waiting for me to pick it up. I've fired others. The 92fs is the finest pistol I have ever fired. If you carry a weapon that has a decocker your first shot will almost always be DA. It is foolish to practice any other way. After a few hundred rounds you won't notice the difference. I like pistols with decockers and the extrernal safety. You can knock the hell out of them and they are still safe.

  20. #19
    Dragon is offline Junior Member
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    Buy what feels good to you. If the Beretta fits your hands (and you know it is a reputable maker) get it and enjoy. With practise you will get used to what ever pistol you buy, and if not sell it and get something else. Just remember practise, practise, practise and don't get frustrated if it takes a few hundred rounds to get the pistol broke in and for you to get comfortable with it. I have a variety of pistols some I like more than others but with practise I am comfortable with them all.

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