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  1. #1
    onetoughpole's Avatar
    onetoughpole is offline Junior Member
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    No Decocking Lever

    I am used to pistols that have a decocking lever and no other external safety. Safety-wise, is an external safety with a pistol "cocked and locked" any less safe than those that have a decocking lever?

    If anyone has made the switch over from decocking lever to an external safety did it take some getting used to?

  2. #2
    mactex is offline Member
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    That is a pretty broad question and begs more specifics. I use pistols with safeties all the time (Bersa and Ruger), but there are so many variations out there that it would be best if you described what pistol(s) you are contemplating and what you are used to.

  3. #3
    onetoughpole's Avatar
    onetoughpole is offline Junior Member
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    I am used to using a Sig 229 and considering buying a CZ 75B

  4. #4
    Black Metal's Avatar
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    Do you keep your gun loaded? I have a CZ 2075 it does not have a decocker and I prefer it over my P94 that does. It didn't take any getting use to really, just know your gun and know what you are doing and you'll be fine.

  5. #5
    Joeywhat's Avatar
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    I don't even think a Glock is any less safe then a pistol with an internal trigger lock that has been locked and the key thrown out. Safety is more about the shooter, not the gun.

    As long as something is in place to keep the gun from firing when dropped or hit, it's safe.

  6. #6
    tony pasley's Avatar
    tony pasley is offline Senior Member
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    It does take some getting used to the change, but yes if the gun is in proper working order. Cocked and locked is safe way to carry. With all firearms the most important safety is between your ears.

  7. #7
    PhilR. is offline Member
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    I would say that a cocked/locked hangun is slightly less safe than one decocked with a decocking lever. The reason why I say this is if you read the handgun forums long enough, you will eventually read of someone who carried a 1911 cocked and locked, and then found that after a full day of carrying, they found the pistol's safety lever was in the off position when they unholstered the weapon after arriving home. At some time during the day, movement of the pistol against the body had inadvertently pushed the lever to the off position. Obviously this cannot happen with a de-cocked handgun.

    Another reason why most police departments don't use the venerable 1911 or similar is that people will sometimes forget to switch the safety lever to the off position when suddenly presented with a shooting situation. Yes, the armchair quarterbacks will merely state that a person this happens to is inadequately trained or has the wrong equipment, but it can happen to anyone, no matter how much range time they put in. No one is infallible.

    It is for those reasons why I would never concealed-carry a cocked/locked handgun. I would much prefer a pistol that merely needs it's trigger pulled in order for it to go bang when I need it....

    PhilR.

  8. #8
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilR. View Post
    I would say that a cocked/locked hangun is slightly less safe than one decocked with a decocking lever. The reason why I say this is if you read the handgun forums long enough, you will eventually read of someone who carried a 1911 cocked and locked, and then found that after a full day of carrying, they found the pistol's safety lever was in the off position when they unholstered the weapon after arriving home. At some time during the day, movement of the pistol against the body had inadvertently pushed the lever to the off position. Obviously this cannot happen with a de-cocked handgun...
    It is for exactly that reason that I switched from a Government Model single-action (SA) semi-auto to a double-action-only (DAO) semi-auto for daily carry.
    An unintended "wipe-off" can happen in even a well-designed holster. Of course, if the pistol's trigger is completely covered, the SA is still completely safe...until you present it, that is, and just happen to touch that trigger accidentally.
    A DAO pistol permits its user many more, and more versatile, carry options. I would never carry a SA pistol in a waist pouch, for instance, while I'm happy to tote a DAO that way.

    Why am I saying "DAO" instead of "decocker"? Because I am a firm believer in using a pistol that presents you with the exact same trigger pull, each and every time. Only SA and DAO pistols do that.
    I strongly believe that if you have to physically and mentally shift from DA first shot to SA subsequent shots while also managing a dangerous situation, your concentration will suffer, and you will miss your target at exactly the worst time.

    BTW, I do still carry a SA semi-auto on occasion. But I step into a handy men's room to check the condition of its safety, every so often.

  9. #9
    PhilR. is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    Why am I saying "DAO" instead of "decocker"? Because I am a firm believer in using a pistol that presents you with the exact same trigger pull, each and every time. Only SA and DAO pistols do that.
    I strongly believe that if you have to physically and mentally shift from DA first shot to SA subsequent shots while also managing a dangerous situation, your concentration will suffer, and you will miss your target at exactly the worst time.

    Evidently, we must think alike (kinda scary...), since all four of my daily carries are DAO. I have a L-frame .357 that will carry a few times a year (I call it my "goin' to the mall gun"), but I would only shoot it DA as the SA pull is really too light for SD use.

    PhilR.

  10. #10
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    I'd be relatively unconcerned about the safety of a holstered pistol in Condition One. Even if the safety rubs off, it's just not that big a deal in a holster that covers the trigger guard. Anyway, I carried a 1911 for many years and never had the safety rub off, though I used the small Colt safety rather than a big gas pedal.

    The main reason lots of cops use heavy-trigger DA guns is because they often hold people at gunpoint, and that is the time when a stress-induced ND would be a big problem. Well, that and the fact that the sight of a cocked pistol gives ignorant, politically-correct police administrators a case of the vapors.

    Main area to think about in retraining is to make the swiping down of the safety lever absolutely ingrained in the draw stroke. Assuming a five-count draw, the safety should be disengaged by step four ("smack"). This will take some time to learn if you are used to a grab-and-shoot pistol.
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  11. #11
    onetoughpole's Avatar
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    How about in a USPSA Production match. Would having a pistol in a "cocked and locked" position give a beginner much advantage over a pistol that requires the first shot to be fired in DA and all subsequent shots in SA; or, is there really not that much difference when first starting out?

  12. #12
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onetoughpole View Post
    How about in a USPSA Production match. Would having a pistol in a "cocked and locked" position give a beginner much advantage over a pistol that requires the first shot to be fired in DA and all subsequent shots in SA; or, is there really not that much difference when first starting out?
    A consistent trigger is a big advantage in any type of shooting that weighs accuracy against speed. It is actually a bigger advantage for a new shooter than an experienced one.
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  13. #13
    onetoughpole's Avatar
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    I never thought about it like that. Good point.

  14. #14
    gmaske's Avatar
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    I started with a DA/SA auto and am in the process of switching to a SA Cocked and Locked. I have a bunch of training to do with the SA only before I start hauling it with me. (I really don't want to put a .45 hole in my butt or forget to wipe the safety so I want to work on presentation a bit.) I like both but there is a lot to be said for the change in trigger pull between the first DA shot and the next SA shot. I've done a couple of unintentioned Double Taps at the range with the DA/SA pistol. I will add that the trigger pull is very light on the SA pull of this gun. The DA first pull does give you a level of emotional comfort. Para makes a DA only 1911 type pistol that has a light trigger pull if anyone is interested.

    http://www.para-usa.com/new/product_lda.php

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