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  1. #1
    R.J.Adams is offline Junior Member
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    GLOCK,thoughts to ponder.

    Hey all. I find myself being drawn to the GLOCK of late. Not sure why, but I feel the need for one. I have been reading up on them a bit, and am surprised at what I have found. The PA State Troopers, as well as the NY State Troopers,are arming themselves with GLOCKS. Not the same models, but GLOCKS just the same. I see where the P.S.P is showing an increase in qualifing scores from something like 86% of the perfect 300 points, to 95%! All with the 45 G.A.P. That also reflects an increase in perfect scores, some shot by Troopers not previously turning in a score of 300. I have been looking at the striker fire guns for local combat shooting matches, and keep coming up GLOCK. Don't get me wrong, I love my Beretta 96, but I think I could pick up a few points with a striker at the matches. My questions are, am I missing the boat not having a GLOCK already, and who would reccomend a 45 G.A.P for combat shooting? Thanks,R.J.

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  3. #2
    JeffWard's Avatar
    JeffWard is offline Senior Member
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    The ballistics on the 45GAP seem pretty impressive, but the availability of ammo, and price, do not...

    I've never shot one. Love to... just never have.

    Re Glock vs everything else? Glock is THE standard for reliability. Accuracy, for a combat gun, is very good. Bore axis is lowest in the Glock for striker fired pistols, but effective recoil is debatable among Glock, XD, and M&P. After that, it is subjective opinion/preference.

    I am personally more accurate with an XD than a Glock or M&P, Mike Barham will extole Glocks as the king of accuracy and reliability. Others will point to the M&P as the "third son" in the line, and an improvement on both Glock and XD... Though, as the newest, it's least proven...

    Pick the one that suits you, that you shoot best, and then practice until it's part of you.
    JW

  4. #3
    brisk21's Avatar
    brisk21 is offline Junior Member
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    I dont know of too many people who have regretted buying a glock, thats for sure. Id stay away from the 45 gap just because ammo is rare and expensive. who knows, it may be obsolete soon. Id go with a more established caliber, like the 9mm or 45. I think that tho only people who dont like glocks are the people who dont understand them.

  5. #4
    big rob is offline Junior Member
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    I love the glock. If I could own only one handgun it would be a glock. I would say go find or rent one and shoot it. As for the 45gap. If you can find ammo I say why not. But you may want a glock 21sf in 45acp. Much easier to find ammo. Last box of 45gap I found was like $30 for 20 rounds.

  6. #5
    Mike Barham's Avatar
    Mike Barham is offline Senior Member
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    Shooting the GAP specifically won't increase your scores. The likely reason for the higher scores turned in by the cops you mentioned is more probably that they went from a long-trigger or crunchenticker DA gun to the short-trigger Glock. Those departments probably would have seem a similar increase going to the XD or any other short-trigger pistol in 9mm or .40 or .357 or maybe even .45ACP. Short-trigger guns are just easier to shoot well for most people, including cops.

    The Glock has a lower bore axis and, critically to fast shooting, a shorter-firmer trigger reset versus most pistols. These are advantages in games that require a balance of speed and accuracy. They are also advantages that become more and more apparent as you become more skilled. A new shooter is hardly ever even cognizant of them, where an old hand notices the difference right away.
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  7. #6
    submoa is offline Member
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    Are Glocks 'perfect' guns? No. They are service grade tools that are reliable and accurate enough to get the job done and cheap enough to be readily accessible.

    For years, Glock (wisely) did everything they could to capture the LE market. They offered aggressive pricing and more importantly for the politicos, a generous trade in program.

    Glock also benefitted from early noteriety of the G17 by gaining mindshare from a number of disinformation campaigns ranging from X-ray transparency (metal slide) to being the first polymer gun (HK VP70 1968). It gained a lot of allure from the NYC ban and being favored by rappers. Given the success of the G17, Glock shrunk the gun into its subcompacts, and stretched it to accomodate every caliber they could, plagarizing the same design over and over.

    With the internet came the famous videos made by spoiled kids abusing their Glocks (snow, sand, being run over, etc.). At which point Glock reliability became legendary. The reality is that Glocks are no more reliable than any modern polymer pistol be it P99, XD or USP. Making a gun reliable, you assemble it to loose tolerances so everything works, every time, no break in mandatory. To make it accurate, all the pieces fit tightly, requiring extensive break in with hardball to make it reliable.

    If you belong to the cult of low bore axis, the Steyr M-A1 (in 9 or 40) is the true low bore axis standard in poly guns.

    The overwhelming Glock marketing juggernaut drowned out a number of gaffes from an unsupported chamber causing KaBooms, especially in .40, to the redesign that added finger grooves to the grip making the gun unpleasant for people with small hands or fingers of differing lengths, to the introduction of the G21 that would only fit the hands of NBA players.

    If your hand fits the Glock's blocky grip, you can stand the mushy trigger and you shoot one accurately... go for it. In the end, the bad guys you shoot with a Glock in SD really don't care. Just make your choice based on whether you shoot one well, not because you've been sucked in by the marketing, rapper videos and peer pressure.

  8. #7
    Joeywhat's Avatar
    Joeywhat is offline Member
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    I shot a Glock once...I shot it well, but at the end of the day I felt I could spend my money on a better gun. I'll still probably buy one, though...just not right now.

  9. #8
    Teuthis is offline Member
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    Glock

    I've had two Glocks, and currently have a model 36 in 45 ACP. In my opinion, they are well-made, good-shooting firearms; but not the super guns that many claim them to be. My S&W M&P 9c shoots as well as the Glocks I have tried; trigger, ergonomics, recoil and sights.

    If you collect handguns and want to add a Glock, by all means do so. If you are thinking that Glock is the only brand on the planet and you must have one, then I would suggest looking around first. Try out other available brands and styles. Good luck with your choices!

  10. #9
    Mike Barham's Avatar
    Mike Barham is offline Senior Member
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    I don't know anything about rapper videos or YouTube torture tests by rich kids, but I do know that the Glock is more widely issued than any other single service pistol in America, and has been tested much more extensively than the XD. I certainly grant that SIGs, Berettas, and HKs equal it in reliability, but none - with their high bore axes and long trigger resets - are as easy to shoot well at speed.

    The Glock is easy for most new shooters to shoot reasonably well, which I think accounts for a large measure of its popularity, especially when compared to crunchentickers. Is it a 1911 in terms of ease of shooting? Nope. But in my experience the Glock is much more reliable. I'll take a stone-cold reliable pistol with a spongy trigger over a fussy gun with a perfect trigger any day. But I quit competing years ago and only care about pistols from a defensive perspective anymore.

    The low-bore-axis Steyr is a non-starter in the pistol world. No holsters, no accessories, magazines hard to find, no institutional armorer knowledge, weird sights. Nice gun, but it's basically an orphan in the gun world. I have nothing against Steyr - my favorite rifle is a Steyr - but I strongly prefer guns that have been heavily tested in the real world and for which I can actually find parts, holsters, accessories and armorers.
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  11. #10
    Dredd is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by brisk21 View Post
    I dont know of too many people who have regretted buying a glock, thats for sure. Id stay away from the 45 gap just because ammo is rare and expensive. who knows, it may be obsolete soon. Id go with a more established caliber, like the 9mm or 45. I think that tho only people who dont like glocks are the people who dont understand them.
    Or people like me who just found something they enjoy shooting better, and then sold the Glock.

  12. #11
    R.J.Adams is offline Junior Member
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    One of the main reasons I am looking for a new fun gun has been mentioned. The long DA trigger pull and long reset of the Beretta. I really do like the 96, I wanted a Beretta since I saw my first one years ago. So, when I found this one I picked it up. It is a quality pistol that shoots pretty good actually. I have fired an M&P 45 some, nice pistol also. I like the American made aspect of it. It is the one that set me to thinking striker for competition. I guess I need to borrow (can't rent them here) a GLOCK and have a go with it.

    I was hoping with the GAP being taken on board by some of the bigger state LE agencies, it would make it more available and afordable. I can be happy with a 45 ACP, good round and common as ticks in Texas. My 40 is a little sharp and hard to get back on target. Could just be the high bore line. I never had a 9mm, and likely won't. Nothing against it as a fun gun chambering. It just doesn't float my boat.

    Thanks for all the input fellas,I appreciate it,R.J.

  13. #12
    Ram Rod's Avatar
    Ram Rod is offline Senior Member
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    The Glock would do you very well in competition. That's what I use. 9mm for minor classes, 40cal for major. Glock is hi capacity for the matches which you'll want of course. 45acp is expensive compared to 40 and 9mm. If you wanted to shoot 45 and only 45, get a single stack 1911 model of some sort and reload. Just my 2Ę
    Oh---and yes--Glock has been time tested where the XD has not. KB's? I figure the amount of KB's vs the amount of Glock pistols owned and shot is acceptable. Less than one in a million I'd suspect. Bashing?? Most of the time in this world--it's the guys at the top that take a beating--everyone else is jealous.

  14. #13
    R.J.Adams is offline Junior Member
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    Lets muddy the waters a little her. Has anyone had any experiance with the factory compensated GLOCKS? I see where they have compensated 1911 length models that would appear to be the cats......well, you know. The model 35 Practical Tactical I believe. Are they an advantage in the speed game?

  15. #14
    GTD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    I do know that the Glock is more widely issued than any other single service pistol in America, and has been tested much more extensively than the XD.
    Price drives everything! If the XD came in a hundred dollars cheaper then the glock (and they might I donít know) police departments and civilians would be buying them up. Lately the XDís sure seem to be flying off the shelves.

  16. #15
    Mike Barham's Avatar
    Mike Barham is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTD View Post
    Price drives everything! If the XD came in a hundred dollars cheaper then the glock (and they might I donít know) police departments and civilians would be buying them up. Lately the XDís sure seem to be flying off the shelves.
    If price was "everything," Glock would have had 100% (rather than 60-70%) of the police market and SIG, HK, Beretta, and S&W would be gone. Glock certainly offers police departments good pricing, but they also have a great armorer program (that the others have been trying for years to emulate), and the Glock is easy for most police recruits to shoot well compared to long-trigger guns.

    XDs sell well, but if holster sales are any indication, they are still very far behind Glock - and I mean 20-to-1 or more - in overall popularity. Gun enthusiasts tend to talk about guns to other enthusiasts, which colors perceptions of the popularity of different guns. But the XD - while an excellent pistol that is increasing in popularity - is nowhere near as widely seen as the first tier of service pistols in the non-enthusiast world, where guns are just tools for a job and not objects of affection.
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  17. #16
    brisk21's Avatar
    brisk21 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dredd View Post
    Or people like me who just found something they enjoy shooting better, and then sold the Glock.
    well, since you clearly have such distain for glocks, if you have any more let me know if you want to sell them, because I imagine you'll likely sell them for next to nothing. glocks are probably the best self defense handguns in the world. nothing has been tested so extensively and always passed. there is a reason they're soooo popular, they work every time!

  18. #17
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brisk21 View Post
    glocks are probably the best self defense handguns in the world.
    Wow, and I thought I was a Glock fanboy!

    If a guy shoots a SIG, HK, XD, Beretta, or whatever better than he shoots a Glock, that is the "best" defense gun for him - not the Glock. I like Glocks quite a lot, but they are not the best defense gun for everyone, nor are they "perfection," regardless of the claims of the Glock marketing juggernaut.
    Employed by Galco Gunleather - www.galcogunleather.com / Veteran OEF VIII

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  19. #18
    brisk21's Avatar
    brisk21 is offline Junior Member
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    I agree, with you mike, but, the simplicity of the glock is one of the reasons I think it is the best self defense handgun. there is clearly no such thing as perfection in a weapon of any kind. Maybe glocks new slogan should be-- "everything you need and nothing you dont"

  20. #19
    Ram Rod's Avatar
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    RJ--my competition pitols are the same as my carry pitols. Therefore I don't have any experience with the 'C' models--I don't see those as actual combat personal protection options personally. As far as competition--I'd say the 'C' model Glocks were built specifically for that purpose.

  21. #20
    submoa is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    The low-bore-axis Steyr is a non-starter in the pistol world. No holsters, no accessories, magazines hard to find, no institutional armorer knowledge, weird sights. Nice gun, but it's basically an orphan in the gun world. I have nothing against Steyr - my favorite rifle is a Steyr - but I strongly prefer guns that have been heavily tested in the real world and for which I can actually find parts, holsters, accessories and armorers.
    Mike, have you shot a Steyr M Pistol or is this a critique of the marketing?

    I'll state this again: Pick a reliable gun you can shoot well regardless of the marketing hype.

    For the most part, modern polymer handguns have the same reliability. I will qualify this only with the condition, "for designs over 5 years old." This includes XD, P99, USP, Steyr M-A1, etc.

    If a low bore axis is your overriding criteria for being able to shoot well, then do consider the Steyr M-A1. Reliability testimony is only a Google search away. Holsters are available from DeSantis, BladeTech, High Noon, Gunners Alley, Bianchi, USA Steyr, etc. Night sights are available from XS Sights, PT sights. Unless you customize, you send warrranty work back to the manufacturer. If after handling one it doesn't work for you, nothing lost. But if it works really well for you, then the extra SD edge might save your life.

    Again, get the gun you can shoot well, not the one the 'cool' kid tells you to get. When you face the bad guy, you will be the one pulling the trigger, not the 'cool' kid.

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