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Thread: Night Sights

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Can being skilled at the "wrong" things be beneficial?
    Yes.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by fivehourfrenzy View Post
    Yes.
    Perhaps you'd like to start the thread, then. I can see how, from a martial arts/empty hand perspective, that would be true. I can further see how that can be expanded to pistolcraft, but I think an exploration would be quite interesting...at least from a "software" point of view.
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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    ...Can being skilled at the "wrong" things be beneficial?
    No matter how "incorrect" your technique (according to someone else's standard), if it's effective in stopping the fight you have suddenly found yourself in, then it turns out to be beneficial.
    1. In response to an attack (carjacking, holdup, etc.) adrenalin-fed fight-or-flight takes over, you react blindly, forget almost all of your training, and draw clumsily because that's what you've been practicing, but you end up with your pistol pointed at a very surprised BG. He immediately surrenders (or runs off). Bad technique due to insufficient, and poorly constituted, practice; but good, effective outcome.
    2. Marksmanship, for instance, is a far better technique than "spray and pray." But given military-style ammunition resupply, "spray and pray" (a technique much practiced in some of our own recent-past warfare) has been known to effectively get a defending force out from under the massive attentions of an attacking force. Bad technique, but good effect. See: Vietnam.

    Mike: Has the Army gone back to teaching one-shot-at-a-time marksmanship? Last I looked, it hadn't.

    (If someone wants to move this post to another thread, it's OK with me.)

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffWard View Post
    Somewhere in the middle, like usual... lies the truth.

    In an instictive shooting situation, at close range, in an out-draw to survive scenario... You're not going to see the sights, illuminated or not, and your survival will depend on your training, and practice, and a lot of old fashion... luck.

    In the instance where a more precise shot may be required, ie home defense in the dark from the top of the stairs... against a dark target, like a guy in a black sweatshirt, black pants, and a black hat... I'll take the night sights every time... If I have the element of suprise, ie time, I want sight alignment. Black (or white dot) sights on a black background, in low light... I WANT to avoid being silouetted, and avoid having a tactical light in my gun creating a target...

    The thought of my tritium sights "washing out" a target to me doesn't wash... Where "correct" technique requires focus on a front sight... tritiums work exceptionally well in FORCING the eye to focus on the glowing dot... the center one... They aren't nearly bright enough to "swamp" a target... They DO help me find the gun on the nightstand in the pitch black though!!!!

    My 2 cents.

    JW
    Just going to pick out the idea of a tactical light. They are not ment for constant on operation for the most part. You may see cops on TV walking around with their light on the bad guy and that's fine for them. However, their use is more for momentary operation. You thumb the switch just to blip the target/area and no more. You're not going to be walking around the house beaming 80+ lumens of light around. You're supposed to use it to illuminate the area for a moment. Generally speaking, people overlook the usefulness of a light. Being proficient with using a tac light on or with your gun takes more practice than most people would say is worth it. It is possible to momentarily blind a person who is poking around the dark corners and that may be enough for him/her to drop their guard. You're not relying on the light so much as using it as another tool to pickout the proper target and not start shooting at a shadow who turns out to be the kid next door who climbed into the wrong window after being out all night drinking.

    My point is, a light can be very useful in the right hands if you are willing to practice using it properly. I'm not an expert on using a light with a gun in any type of situation, but I can definately see the usefulness.

  6. #25
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Practice makes almost any tool useful.

    (Do I go on too much about practice?)

  7. #26
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    No matter how "incorrect" your technique (according to someone else's standard), if it's effective in stopping the fight you have suddenly found yourself in, then it turns out to be beneficial.
    If a technique works, is it actually "incorrect?" Maybe it's just a semantic argument.

    Mike: Has the Army gone back to teaching one-shot-at-a-time marksmanship? Last I looked, it hadn't.
    The Army is currently emphasizing an avoidance of collateral damage, but is only taking a slightly different approach than it did when I was in the first time (early '90s).

    The rifle qual course is similar, with 40 rounds fired at pop-up targets from 75 to 300 meters. The only difference is now 10 rounds are fired from kneeling rather than all prone. Emphasis is on single hits - you get 40 rounds for 40 target exposures. You qualify with both the Aimpoint and the backup iron sights.

    There is also a "quick kill" course fired at short ranges (under 25 meters), starting at Low Ready. This involves fast pairs fired from standing, with pivots from left and right.

    Machinegun quals are the same as they always have been: unrealistic.

    The Army does not emphasize long range marksmanship like the Marine Corps does, unless one is a squad designated marksman or a sniper. SDMs get ACOGs and a special class on longer-range shooting, which I think goes out to 500 meters. I'm okay with the emphasis on shorter-range shooting, since the vast majority of real-world enemy contacts occur under 100 meters. I think 500 meter shooting with an M4 for the average trooper would be a waste of training time.

    The Marines on the forum will now flame me, so I'd better go get my Nomex ACUs.
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  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    If a technique works, is it actually "incorrect?" Maybe it's just a semantic argument...
    Agreed!
    Since I harp so much on practice, an expert on another forum gets on my case about having to make sure to "practice the correct techniques, not the 'wrong' ones."
    I half-way agree with her, in that practicing the "correct techniques" leads one closer to mastery and effective skill application. However, on this forum (where I don't have to argue with her), I will maintain that mere practice, if well-intentioned and practical, is, in and of itself, a good thing regardless of "correct technique" or "wrong" ones.
    Practice, per se, can't be bad.

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    ...I think 500 meter shooting with an M4 for the average trooper would be a waste of training time...
    I agree. In fact, I think that it's a waste of time for even the good shooters.
    The .223 is a close-range, carbine-type weapon. It is not a rifle, in the accepted tactical sense of the word.
    Thanks for the information, Mike.

  10. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    The .223 is a close-range, carbine-type weapon. It is not a rifle, in the accepted tactical sense of the word.
    Agreed. I tend to think of the M4 more as a big pistol rather than a rifle.

    Regarding the correctness or incorrectness of a particular technique, it is of course highly subjective and varies from school of thought to school of thought. As one example, Chuck Taylor taught me the "correct" Weaver, but now I shoot from Modern Isosceles. But this Mod Iso is not the same as the "correct" Isosceles I learned from Mas Ayoob.

    Whatever works to get the hits needed in the time frame allowed is "correct." Some ways may be more efficient than others, but pistolcraft is an evolving art, and we discover newer, more "correct" things as we go.
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  11. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    ...Whatever works to get the hits needed in the time frame allowed is "correct." Some ways may be more efficient than others, but pistolcraft is an evolving art, and we discover newer, more "correct" things as we go.
    Well said.
    We agree completely.

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