Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 77
  1. #21
    Wyatt's Avatar
    Wyatt is offline Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    The Naked City
    Posts
    713
    After reading good reports about the Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P around HGF I made the switch. Just received 4 boxes of the LE version, which is the same round but packed in 50 instead of 20.

    For anyone that's interested I got them from Ammo-to-go for $24.95 a box(50). Shipping was reasonable, $9.50 from TX to CA. They currently have it in stock. Here's the link:

    http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/i...a&filter_id=24

  2. #22
    Dredd is offline Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    267
    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    I've read several articles by Ayoob suggesting modelling your SD weapon choices after LE is a good idea when you need to testify in a SD shooting.

    Expanding bullets and large wound channels might not be considered humane by the politically correct. So I can understand why the politicos would limit LE and military to ball ammo.

    On the other hand assholes who threaten my life and/or those of my family are not deserving of humane treatment.
    Most agencies around the country use Hollow Points for duty weapons. Two popular choices are Winchester ranger T 127gr +p+ and Speer Gold Dot 124gr +p. It's no secret that a JHP round will have a greater chance to put down a BG than FMJ.

  3. #23
    Dredd is offline Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    267
    Quote Originally Posted by fivehourfrenzy View Post
    That's dumb...ball ammo in 9mm? Wow. Well, I think we'll all agree that Gold Dots are one of the best out there.
    Ball ammo is what the military uses in their Beretta 92FS issue sidearms. They load up a 124gr FMJ to just below +p standards. NATO loadings are typically hotter than your standard practice FMJ, but not as hot as the +p JHP rounds.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Lexington
    Posts
    1,083
    I guess a lot of the democrats who oppose the use of guns think that a bullet that is intended to incapacitate a BG as quickly as possible is designed to kill him.

    I get a lot of flak for wanting a shotgun for HD. I assure people that a BG coming up the steps won't feel a thing.

  5. #25
    Dredd is offline Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    267
    Quote Originally Posted by fivehourfrenzy View Post
    I guess a lot of the democrats who oppose the use of guns think that a bullet that is intended to incapacitate a BG as quickly as possible is designed to kill him.

    I get a lot of flak for wanting a shotgun for HD. I assure people that a BG coming up the steps won't feel a thing.
    Actually the Geneva Convention stated that a military force should not impose unnecessary pain and suffering on any enemy combatant. That includes using expending bullet technology. That way of thinking is starting to change a bit, but it's a long and hard process to get the word from the mid-east streets up to the guys who can make the change happen. Lots of guys are calling for a better loading than 9mm if they can't use JHP ammo. Maybe go back to the .45? I've heard some rumors of the SEAL teams trying to get the USP .40 into service with them. They used to issue the USP from HK, but it became expensive to keep in service compared to Sig and HK lost the contract. The SEALs currently use the Sig p226 as far as I know, which is 9mm.

    I'm not sure if groups like Blackwater are under the same restraints. Since they are private contractors, I'd guess they could carry whatever they wanted.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Lexington
    Posts
    1,083
    I'm aware of the Geneva Convention's constraints on military use of hollowpoint ammunition. I was referring to civilian use...IMO, if someone is deserving of a few bullets in SD, the person acting in SD should be able to use whatever kind of ammunition they want, whether it be non-expanding, expanding, fragmenting, etc. I remember reading somewhere that the Geneva Convention also prohibited military use of flechettes.

  7. #27
    polyguy's Avatar
    polyguy is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Miami
    Posts
    42
    I don't have much experience with different types of ammo. To be honest, I've always had either Remington or Winchester FMJs loaded until a friend recently gave a box of Winchester 147gr JHPs. To me, a quality Full Metal Jacketed round has been good enough so far.

  8. #28
    Mike Barham's Avatar
    Mike Barham is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Arizona, baby!
    Posts
    5,081
    Quote Originally Posted by Dredd View Post
    Actually the Geneva Convention stated that a military force should not impose unnecessary pain and suffering on any enemy combatant. That includes using expending bullet technology.
    Actually, it was the Hague Accords, which the US never signed but abides by nonetheless. http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html

    They used to issue the USP from HK, but it became expensive to keep in service compared to Sig and HK lost the contract.
    Do you have a reference for that? It's news to me. I believe SEALs used suppressed HK P9S pistols many years ago, in a limited capacity, and there is that silly HK Mk. 23 "SOCOM" pistol that seems to spend more time in the arms room than in the field. Anyway, the SEALs have been issuing the P226 since the 1980s, and the USP wasn't introduced until 1993, so the dates don't seem to add up.

    I'm not sure if groups like Blackwater are under the same restraints. Since they are private contractors, I'd guess they could carry whatever they wanted.
    The contractors I've seen here almost all have M4s and either Beretta 92s or Glocks 9mms. One guy had a wide-body 1911 that looked like an STI at a glance. I don't know what they are carrying for ammo, though.
    Employed by Galco Gunleather - www.galcogunleather.com / Veteran OEF VIII

    Donate to the Christian and Stephanie Nielson Recovery fund: http://www.nierecovery.com/.

    All opinions, particularly those involving politics and Glocks, are mine and not Galco's.

  9. #29
    Mike Barham's Avatar
    Mike Barham is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Arizona, baby!
    Posts
    5,081
    Quote Originally Posted by polyguy View Post
    To me, a quality Full Metal Jacketed round has been good enough so far.
    Good enough until you shoot someone and it pokes a little pencil hole through him and exits to hit someone else. Modern JHPs are the way to go in 9mm. If you like ball, use a .45ACP.
    Employed by Galco Gunleather - www.galcogunleather.com / Veteran OEF VIII

    Donate to the Christian and Stephanie Nielson Recovery fund: http://www.nierecovery.com/.

    All opinions, particularly those involving politics and Glocks, are mine and not Galco's.

  10. #30
    Dredd is offline Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    267
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Actually, it was the Hague Accords, which the US never signed but abides by nonetheless. http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html



    Do you have a reference for that? It's news to me. I believe SEALs used suppressed HK P9S pistols many years ago, in a limited capacity, and there is that silly HK Mk. 23 "SOCOM" pistol that seems to spend more time in the arms room than in the field. Anyway, the SEALs have been issuing the P226 since the 1980s, and the USP wasn't introduced until 1993, so the dates don't seem to add up.



    The contractors I've seen here almost all have M4s and either Beretta 92s or Glocks 9mms. One guy had a wide-body 1911 that looked like an STI at a glance. I don't know what they are carrying for ammo, though.
    Sorry to full quote cause I'm lazy.

    I guess some info is more rumor than fact. Or, perhaps it was just that they did have access to HK pistols that may not have been used in active combat duty. Either way, thanks for correcting that.

    I know that the contractors carry some form of automatic rifle. I was referring to their backup gun or sidearm. Didn't know if they were all using the same thing or what. It's hard to keep up with because you hear things that may come from people who don't know what they're talking about. Sig offers a Blackwater edition P226 but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the exact one they use in service but maybe they do.

  11. #31
    Dredd is offline Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    267
    Quote Originally Posted by fivehourfrenzy View Post
    I'm aware of the Geneva Convention's constraints on military use of hollowpoint ammunition. I was referring to civilian use...IMO, if someone is deserving of a few bullets in SD, the person acting in SD should be able to use whatever kind of ammunition they want, whether it be non-expanding, expanding, fragmenting, etc. I remember reading somewhere that the Geneva Convention also prohibited military use of flechettes.
    Laws outside the military are set from state to state. For example, in Texas or FL you don't have any restraints on the use of JHP ammo. In New York City you'd have a hard time buying it and many places do not sell it online to residents of NYC. I believe the state of New Jersey is similar, but don't quote me.

  12. #32
    polyguy's Avatar
    polyguy is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Miami
    Posts
    42
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Good enough until you shoot someone and it pokes a little pencil hole through him and exits to hit someone else. Modern JHPs are the way to go in 9mm. If you like ball, use a .45ACP.
    Haha, not at all, my friend. I have JHPs loaded in my weapon, as I stated in the post you quoted. I'll stick to my 9mm FMJ, JHP, or whatever quality round is loaded and switch calibers when I feel the desire, thanks.

  13. #33
    CMSpecs is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    13
    I guess he loads his M9 blindfolded each time. Cuz gov issue has never been nothing better than fmj. At least i've never ever seen anything more in all the m9s. You'd be blessed to get a clean box.
    And aint no fmj 9mm is gonna over penetrate nothing unless you dang near put the gun to somebodys head. At that point, ur a assainating some firggen body. Come on man

  14. #34
    Dredd is offline Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    267
    Quote Originally Posted by CMSpecs View Post
    I guess he loads his M9 blindfolded each time. Cuz gov issue has never been nothing better than fmj. At least i've never ever seen anything more in all the m9s. You'd be blessed to get a clean box.
    And aint no fmj 9mm is gonna over penetrate nothing unless you dang near put the gun to somebodys head. At that point, ur a assainating some firggen body. Come on man
    FMJ does overpenetrate. Do you understand what overpenetration means?

    It means that the bullet penetrates a soft target too far. Doesn't have to go through someone. JHP was designed to expand and slow down inside a soft target such as a BG. It was also designed to create a larger wound channel and cause more trauma. Many modern bullets retain near 100% of their weight after expansion.

  15. #35
    brokenviewfinder's Avatar
    brokenviewfinder is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    So Cal
    Posts
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by fivehourfrenzy View Post
    I get a lot of flak for wanting a shotgun for HD. I assure people that a BG coming up the steps won't feel a thing.
    I don't know how anyone would could argue with that. As a father of two kids under 6 in a small house, stopping a BG vs. unintentional lead flying through the kids rooms is a not a hard call.

  16. #36
    Mike Barham's Avatar
    Mike Barham is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Arizona, baby!
    Posts
    5,081
    Quote Originally Posted by CMSpecs View Post
    I guess he loads his M9 blindfolded each time. Cuz gov issue has never been nothing better than fmj. At least i've never ever seen anything more in all the m9s. You'd be blessed to get a clean box.
    Uhhh, yeah, I'm well aware that my M9 is loaded with ball ammo. But thanks for the heads-up on that.

    But it's not what I'd choose if I had a choice. You understand the difference, right?

    And aint no fmj 9mm is gonna over penetrate nothing unless you dang near put the gun to somebodys head. At that point, ur a assainating some firggen body. Come on man
    You are completely misinformed. NYPD, for example, got away from 9mm ball because they had so many cases of perforation on human targets. Those exiting FMJ bullets, which according to you "ain't gonna overpenetrate" hit a total of 5 uninvolved bystanders in that crowded city, as well as 17 police officers. 14 suspects were also killed by bullets that perforated other suspects. That's a total of 36 people. These were all FMJ 9mm bullets that had already passed through other people before they hit a second person.

    (These stats came from an NYPD report quoted verbatim in The New York Times.)

    In tests in ballistic gelatin, 9mm ball typically digs to 24+", with some examples going to 28". "Acceptable" penetration per the FBI protocols ends at 16", and most sources prefer 11-14" of depth. Most good modern JHPs fall somewhere in the 11-16" range.

    If you prefer ball ammo in 9mm, that's okay with me. It's your life. I just hope I am not downrange if you have to fire in defense, like all those unlucky people in New York. I also hope, for their sake, none of your family members are anywhere behind the bad guy.
    Employed by Galco Gunleather - www.galcogunleather.com / Veteran OEF VIII

    Donate to the Christian and Stephanie Nielson Recovery fund: http://www.nierecovery.com/.

    All opinions, particularly those involving politics and Glocks, are mine and not Galco's.

  17. #37
    Dredd is offline Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    267
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenviewfinder View Post
    I don't know how anyone would could argue with that. As a father of two kids under 6 in a small house, stopping a BG vs. unintentional lead flying through the kids rooms is a not a hard call.
    Then you get fallout from some DA that thinks blowing a guy in half is inhumane and unnecessary. Gotta think all aspects.

    There have been too many cases where the type of weapon used was used as evidence against someone in a PD situation and an uninformed jury hung them out to dry.

    DA would likely say something like "This shotgun, is typically used for hunting purposes. In this case, it's clear that the defendant was in full awareness of his situation and used the said firearm with intent to kill <insert name here>. He was using a weapon which is more powerful than what was necessary."

    It can go on and on. It's really tough...best idea is to avoid having to shoot at all cost.

  18. #38
    TerryP Guest
    Sounds like the general consensus is a 124 gr JHP so later this year when I get my SR9 I'll start with a a factory loading and then load up some practice rounds with brass I scrounge at the range.

    Thanks for the help.

  19. #39
    Mike Barham's Avatar
    Mike Barham is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Arizona, baby!
    Posts
    5,081
    Quote Originally Posted by Dredd View Post
    There have been too many cases where the type of weapon used was used as evidence against someone in a PD situation and an uninformed jury hung them out to dry.
    Perhaps you'd care to cite some of those "many" cases for us?

    Even Mas Ayoob, who is the misunderstood source of most of these urban legends, recommends shotguns for home defense.
    Employed by Galco Gunleather - www.galcogunleather.com / Veteran OEF VIII

    Donate to the Christian and Stephanie Nielson Recovery fund: http://www.nierecovery.com/.

    All opinions, particularly those involving politics and Glocks, are mine and not Galco's.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Lexington
    Posts
    1,083
    Those uninformed juries probably also follow the misconception that buckshot has less potential to perforate walls.

    All I would tell them is I heard something downstairs, and instead of being a jackass and setting out to look for him, I did the smart thing and waited until he came to me, at which point he is the one initiating a confrontation. He's a home invader, and in my home. We have the Castle Doctrine, so any use of deadly physical force I choose to use to protect myself is justifiable.

    And like I said, nobody feels a load of 00 buck hit them in the top of the head. I will get a positive ID on a target before I fire, but if the person sneaking up the steps is indeed in my home uninvited, they'll get plugged.

    Now I need to go out and get a shotgun.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

9mm 4gr unique
,

9mm favorite load

,
9mm load data unique
,
best 9mm ammo for ruger p95
,

favorite 9mm load

,

favorite 9mm loads

,
favorite 9mm target loads- high accuracy
,
favorite9mm accuracy loads
,
most accurate 9mm load
,
most accurate ammo for p30 9mm
,
recommended bullit oal for 9mm 115 gr
,
what ammo does ruger p95 used
Click on a term to search for related topics.

» Springfield Armory

» HGF Sponsors

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.2.1