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  1. #26
    babs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbc_pd10 View Post
    I guessed that was what you meant but I wanted to be sure. It was a little unclear. I know he asked about American manufacturers but he stated it was just curiousity and not a requirement for his purchase.
    The more I read and learn the more I realize the name doesn't mean where it's made etc.. It's made me pretty much think, I don't care as long as it's a well respected brand and model that's popular throughout the US or world.. Our GI's are carrying Italian branded Beretta's, and Sigs, and HK's and Para's and others now.. The XD's are Croatian made under a US brand, the Beretta's are Italian or US made under Italian brand, CZ's are Czech branded and made with a CZ USA division, Sigs and HK's I'm fairly sure are German made and branded. And I think I remember my friend telling me that one or some of the American companies for a while weren't even American owned.. oh boy.. Now I'm confused.. Oh but it gets worse.....

    What's interesting is there are also copies of proven designs...

    Such as the Taurus beretta copies that have been intriguing me.. Taurus bought up a Beretta facilities in Brazil (where most their guns seem to be made) and share the Beretta technology.. So you could get a Beretta 92FS or Taurus PT92 (look the same except for subtle differences such as safety/decocker on the slide vs frame.. but there's huge price difference and are they the same quality/reliability/accuracy? hmmmm I don't think so just from what I'm reading on the boards)

    Then you also have the copies of the CZ pistols by folks like Tanfoglio (Italian) who I know nothing about , but imported by EAA (European American Arms).. calling it the EAA Witness (looks intriguing).. Copy of the 75B CZ. Then there's the Baby Desert Eagle (one of my short-picks.. nice) that's basically another CZ copy and I've read it's a darn good one.. produced by IMI (Isreali Military Industries) which is supposed to be a very good quality armory...

    Confused yet?? I sure am. hehehe

    Pretty much you can pick a route of action type.. such as 1911 style (a gazillion to chose from), CZ 75 style (I think is a modified browning hi-power style.. I think the Ruger P series is also similar), beretta 92 style, Glock / S&W / XD internal striker-fire style, etc.

    ... it's enough to say "screw it!! I'm getting a wheel gun!" hehehe but I bet that's as big a can of worms.

    I guess with the luxury of much in the market to chose from, comes the daunting task of far more companies, guns and gun-types to learn about.

    ... sorry.. shutting up now to learn more from the guys here that actually do indeed know what they're talking about.

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  3. #27
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babs View Post
    Our GI's are carrying Italian branded Beretta's,
    Most of ours were made in Maryland, actually. One of the conditions of the M9 contract was that Beretta would have to set up manufacturing in the US after I think the first year. That said, the Italian pistols I have seen in the inventory do seem a little smoother than the Maryland ones, though it may just be that they are older and more, uhhhh, "broken in."

    Such as the Taurus beretta copies that have been intriguing me.. Taurus bought up a Beretta facilities in Brazil (where most their guns seem to be made) and share the Beretta technology.. So you could get a Beretta 92FS or Taurus PT92 (look the same except for subtle differences such as safety/decocker on the slide vs frame.. but there's huge price difference and are they the same quality/reliability/accuracy? hmmmm I don't think so just from what I'm reading on the boards)
    The Taurus 92/99 series are very reliable, though perhaps not quite as well-assembled as a Beretta. However, the design of the safety/decocking lever leaves much to be desired. If you carry the Taurus cocked-and-locked, as the three-position safety allows, when you thumb down the safety under stress, you may push it all the way to the "decock" position. Bad design, in my opinion.

    I used to own a PT99 with the old-style Taurus safety, which was better. It worked as a true selective DA. Either hammer down, or cocked and locked, but no hammer-dropping feature.

    Then you also have the copies of the CZ pistols by folks like Tanfoglio (Italian) who I know nothing about , but imported by EAA (European American Arms).. calling it the EAA Witness (looks intriguing).. Copy of the 75B CZ. Then there's the Baby Desert Eagle (one of my short-picks.. nice) that's basically another CZ copy and I've read it's a darn good one.. produced by IMI (Isreali Military Industries) which is supposed to be a very good quality armory...
    I really fail to see the point of the CZ copies anymore. Back during the Cold War when you couldn't get a CZ for less than $1500 (1980s money!), they made some sense. But now the CZ are very reasonably priced, and a superb bargain. Why not get the genuine article?

    CZ 75 style (I think is a modified browning hi-power style.. I think the Ruger P series is also similar),
    Most of the CZs offer selective DA lockwork, meaning you can carry cocked-and-locked or hammer down. The Rugers have non-selective DA, meaning you can only carry hammer-down. I strongly prefer cocked-and-locked carry, and so I like the CZ design much more.

    It's mainly personal preference, of course.
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  4. #28
    babs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Most of ours were made in Maryland, actually. One of the conditions of the M9 contract was that Beretta would have to set up manufacturing in the US after I think the first year. That said, the Italian pistols I have seen in the inventory do seem a little smoother than the Maryland ones, though it may just be that they are older and more, uhhhh, "broken in."
    .. Yeah I've seen the questions posed over at the beretta forum about "US vs Italian versions" and I think it's pretty much a draw.. I haven't seen but maybe one or two threads comparing the Taurus to Beretta 92's though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    The Taurus 92/99 series are very reliable, though perhaps not quite as well-assembled as a Beretta. However, the design of the safety/decocking lever leaves much to be desired. If you carry the Taurus cocked-and-locked, as the three-position safety allows, when you thumb down the safety under stress, you may push it all the way to the "decock" position. Bad design, in my opinion.
    I'm just learning about this part of 'carrying'.. If I understand correctly, you prefer then just a regular thumb safety that locks the hammer in cocked position, rather than a decocker with a DA first pull.. correct? (showin' my newbie stripes again)

    I can see when you need it to go bang fast, that extra possible delay with a decocker error can be a very very bad thing.

    Don't the Beretta's decock as well though?? Or is the M9 different than the 92F's or FS's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    I used to own a PT99 with the old-style Taurus safety, which was better. It worked as a true selective DA. Either hammer down, or cocked and locked, but no hammer-dropping feature.
    ... so if you wanted hammer-down with a chambered round, you did it old school by thumb and trigger to let down the hammer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    I really fail to see the point of the CZ copies anymore. Back during the Cold War when you couldn't get a CZ for less than $1500 (1980s money!), they made some sense. But now the CZ are very reasonably priced, and a superb bargain. Why not get the genuine article?
    Agreed.. I get the impression the CZ design is kind of an icon, much like the 1911 or beretta 92 or browning hi-power etc.. Why not have an original if the cash is the same.. I guess availability and if you want a Czech gun, Italian or Isreali or I think I even saw a Turkish version floating around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Most of the CZs offer selective DA lockwork, meaning you can carry cocked-and-locked or hammer down. The Rugers have non-selective DA, meaning you can only carry hammer-down. I strongly prefer cocked-and-locked carry, and so I like the CZ design much more.It's mainly personal preference, of course.
    I'd probably carry hammer down, probably without a chambered round, as a civilian toting my piece to the gun range, but I'm also admittedly ignorant to the whole concept of carrying a loaded weapon anywhere except the woods on hunt for brown tasty critters. But I agree the choice is a good thing.

    I keep coming back to drooling at their metal-frame design, large capacity, their inverted full slide and grip setup. It's high on my not-so short list.. maybe a 97B in .45.

  5. #29
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    I own a Taurus PT 92. The possibility of accidently de-cocking was a concern. Once I tried it, I realized that the design has a "click" when you safety off. The de-cock requires that you depress down on a spring which brings the control back to the ready(safety off) position. BTW, the hammer only goes down to a notch, and is still not at a complete rest, and results in a shorter D.A.
    I think of that feature as an improvement over the backwards European "up to de-cock "design. It also gives me the option of Condition One carry, if I ever get that good.
    The PT92 series is a copy of the Beretta design, prety much, although many parts are no longer interchangable due to improvements incorporated by Taurus. The Beretta is a bit more refined in workmanship. In my case, I am not worried about the difference of one inch groups at 50 feet. I'm more worried about reliability. I've only had one FTF in about 800 rounds(still new), and that was round number 60ish with crappy range loads.
    My 92 is a little large for everyday CCW, and it is set-up for a H.D. / SHTF gun. I put a laserlye on it for that purpose. Under dark gun, dark room conditions I like that the red dot instantainiously tells me where the muzzle is pointed if I ever have check on that "bump in the night".

  6. #30
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    Assuming I fall in love with Sig's DAK trigger and that is, in fact, the gun that I get, what do you guys think about the .357 Sig caliber in comparison to the 9mm?

  7. #31
    sbc_pd10 is offline Junior Member
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    As far as the .357 Sig round itself, I personally love it. My Glock was a .357 Sig and it was the most accurate handgun I have had the privelege of shooting so far. However, you need to have a few considerations about buying it over a 9mm. What do you want to do with the firearm? If its mostly range and then self defense at home, I would say probably 9mm would be fine. If you are looking at CCW all the time, I would personally prefer the .357 Sig. The .357 doesn't really have that much more recoil, but imo it has better stopping power. Another consideration is the availability of ammo in your area and price of the ammo. Some have noted trouble finding ammo for the .357 and it is usually about 1.5x to 2x as expensive as the 9mm ammo. As I have told others though, you can look into the Georgia Arms Company and buy Speer ammo from them for about half what any other brand would cost you in the store. I have shot their ammo for years and never once had a failure of any sorts. You can buy FMJ, JHP, and even +p and +p+ ammo from them. Most people are probably going to tell you to go with the 9mm though. Really depends on what you like and not what I like.

  8. #32
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    I found a webpage a retired cop started that was showing ballistics and pros and cons of the .357Sig. It seems like it has quite a few strong points. I just don't want something that feels like a horse is kicking you in the hand when you shoot it. On the other hand, I don't want to buy a gun and then 2 months down the road wish I would have bought something a little more powerful. I'm in pursuit of the "perfect" all around handgun, but I'm not sure it exists, lol.

  9. #33
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babs View Post
    I'm just learning about this part of 'carrying'.. If I understand correctly, you prefer then just a regular thumb safety that locks the hammer in cocked position, rather than a decocker with a DA first pull.. correct? (showin' my newbie stripes again)
    I do, and that's the only advantage I can see in the Taurus design over the Beretta. Carrying cocked and locked ("Condition One") gives a consistent trigger pull, versus the crunch-tick action of a DA pistol. Consistent trigger action makes a pistol easier to shoot well.

    Don't the Beretta's decock as well though?? Or is the M9 different than the 92F's or FS's?
    They do, and the M9 is exactly the same (alas!). But they don't try, like the Taurus, to be all things to all people. My general opinion is that items that try to do a lot of things at once seldom do any one thing very well. I think the Taurus safety falls into that category.

    If you carry either gun with the hammer down and the safety off, you'll likely be fine.

    ... so if you wanted hammer-down with a chambered round, you did it old school by thumb and trigger to let down the hammer?
    Yup. Same with a CZ75. Not a big deal, really, if you do it properly. But of course I never used the DA feature on the Taurus, nor do I use it on the wife's CZ when I shoot it.

    I'd probably carry hammer down, probably without a chambered round, as a civilian toting my piece to the gun range, but I'm also admittedly ignorant to the whole concept of carrying a loaded weapon anywhere except the woods on hunt for brown tasty critters.
    Hammer down on a live round, safety/decocking dingus "off," is a perfectly safe mode of carry for anyone who can be trusted to carry a pistol. No need to make your one-hand gun into a two-hand gun by carrying empty chamber.
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  10. #34
    sbc_pd10 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by X6StringerX View Post
    I just don't want something that feels like a horse is kicking you in the hand when you shoot it.
    If this is your only concern for not buying a .357 Sig then put your mind at ease. A .357 Sig is not like shooting a .357 Mag revolver. Its hardly more recoil then a 9mm imo. In fact, I kinda felt like it "pushed" more then it "kicked" or "snapped". My advice is to rent something in that caliber and see how it feels to you.

  11. #35
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    I can barely tell a .357SIG from a .40, and it seems similarly snappy. I think it recoils considerably harder than 9mm - which is entirely expected since it is more powerful - though it is certainly not uncontrollable in reasonably well-practiced hands.
    Employed by Galco Gunleather - www.galcogunleather.com / Veteran OEF VIII

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  12. #36
    sbc_pd10 is offline Junior Member
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    Well now that I think about it mine did have a compensated barrel and that helped but I still don't think its anything to worry about. BTW you mentioned something about a Sig I think. If you hadn't noticed someone is trying to sell a brand new SAS type P229 I think it was on the classified section of these forums. You might find a good deal there. Can't remember what caliber it was off the top of my head though.

    Edit- Nm they sold that one I just saw. However keep an eye out there you may find something.

  13. #37
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    Speaking of a .357 Mag, Dad has a 4" SS Rossi. I think it's time I shoot it just to see what it feels like. I know it won't be anything like the semi-autos, but who knows... I might not mind the feel of it and I won't be so worried about whether or not a .347SIG or .45ACP or whatever is manageable.


    Notes to self:

    1- Shoot .357 mag
    2- Rent various semi-autos in different calibers and different actions from gun range
    3- Purchase gun that is most fun to shoot and practical to own
    4- Enjoy gun

    EDIT:

    5- Post pics on handgunforum.net

  14. #38
    sbc_pd10 is offline Junior Member
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    Shoot some .38 specials in your dad's gun first and see how that feels. Then when you are ready for a bigger bang and more recoil try the .357 magnum rounds in it and see what you think. Good plan though from what I can see. GL and looking forward to those pics.

  15. #39
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    The purchase time is near and I'm still in the theoretical stage. I haven't had a chance to go to a range, so my choices are based solely on reviews. The little angel on my shoulder says that the 9mm choices are the safe bets, but the little devil on the other side says to "do it right" and get the P239 in .357SIG. I ask myself, if I could only ever own one handgun, would I be happy with a 9mm? I'm not so sure. Would I want more power? I think I would... I attibute that to the "if you don't have it, you'll need it" mechanism in my brain. If I could own two handguns, which I can, would I be happier with a .22 for target shooting and then the .357SIG for the serious side? I think I might. I've been reading a lot about guns and I still haven't decided what to do. When I first started compiling my list, I really favored the double-stacks for the capacity, but after reading and reading and reading and asking myself different questions, I think a single-stack is the way to go if you MUST trust your life on it.

    I know many people have already replied to this thread and it might be unlikely that it'll grab anyone's attention since it is old, but I ask one thing of anyone that replies after this post.

    Please select one gun from my first post and briefly explain why it is the best choice. Think of the gun that is most likely to help you and/or your family get out of harm's way. Think of harm in many different ways. Bear? Human? Lost and hungry? Feel free to add other situations.

    I appreciate everyone's input.

  16. #40
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    One newb to another.... Go shoot 'em if you can rent 'em.

    Get to know the actions, safeties, triggers etc. It's worth it and it sure beats work. You may find some surprising answers when you bust a few rounds at how the different guns shoot and how the targets look when you reel them in.. I found out a nice thing about Ruger P series.. I can shoot them. I also found out I wasn't so hot with the XD, and also that I'd have to have a fat fat grip if it were a revolver. But that's me... Everyone's hands, eyes, coordination, etc.. All different. May save you some buyer's remorse later.

    Can't buy a car just on specs, reviews and gas mileage.. You gotta drive it if you can and even that doesn't tell you for sure that it's the perfect car for you.. There are still things about my new ride that simply p@$$ me off to no end.

    Good luck.

  17. #41
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    I appreciate your suggestions, but the reality of this is that I'm probably going to buy a gun without having ever shot it. I had plans of going to one particular range, but later learned that it's not actually a range. Well, technically, it is, but its just a vacant piece of public land with some targets. There are no supervisors or anything like that. Anyone can go there at any time night or day. I'm fairly close to one supervised range, but they don't offer rentals. The Gander Mountain in my area only has an archery range. There are no other ranges within 100 miles.

    I live in a rural area. We have over an acre of land with mountains on all sides. Our only neighbors are family members. My front yard will be my range. The only way for me to shoot any particular gun without buying it is to find a friend or family member that has one. Unfortunately, none of my friends or family members have any of the guns that I'm considering.

  18. #42
    Lucretius is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by X6StringerX View Post
    I appreciate your suggestions, but the reality of this is that I'm probably going to buy a gun without having ever shot it. I had plans of going to one particular range, but later learned that it's not actually a range. Well, technically, it is, but its just a vacant piece of public land with some targets. There are no supervisors or anything like that. Anyone can go there at any time night or day. I'm fairly close to one supervised range, but they don't offer rentals. The Gander Mountain in my area only has an archery range. There are no other ranges within 100 miles.

    I live in a rural area. We have over an acre of land with mountains on all sides. Our only neighbors are family members. My front yard will be my range. The only way for me to shoot any particular gun without buying it is to find a friend or family member that has one. Unfortunately, none of my friends or family members have any of the guns that I'm considering.

    This is a tough situation, and I am a "used to" handgun owner looking to get into another handgun as well, so I can simpathize with your plight.

    First, from my experiences ( and pre-conceived notions) I would *highly* reccommend you visiting a range where you can at least test something similar to what your interests are.

    I did just that, and my findings where far from the ideas I had before I went into to test fire some guns.

    I previously have owned a ruger vaquero 45 LC, S&W sigma 9mm, Sig p220 and currently have a ruger MK3 22/45. The ruger I found out I flat could not shoot a revolver accurately without great effort. The Sigma 9mm was ok, the trigger was absolutely garbage. The Sig was a nice gun, never malfunctioned and seemed to fit my hands nice. But it really never seemd like the "gun for me". It was accurate, but I ultimately sold it to fund another bow for archery.

    When I went to rent guns at the range today, I felt in my mind that a ruger or S&W 357 4" revolver was the "perfect" gun for what I needed. I'm really happy I didn't just go buy one. I found out that I still cannot get a consistant grip and my accuracy stinks with a revolver, period.

    The next gun I rented that I felt would be the one was a S&W M&P 45 cal. The gun was nice but the slide release was a pain imo, and I wasn't nearly as accurate as I was with the gun/guns that suprised me the most....... Glocks. I don't know why or how, but I simply could shoot very nice groups with about any caliber glock I wrapped my hands around. And I really didn't want a glock truthfully, but I'll tell you what, I'm gonna own the gun that shoots best for me. I also shot the XD, and it was a great gun as well, but not as nice as the glocks.

    Sorry for the book, I just hope this helps you as much as it did for me.

  19. #43
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    i am a big fan of the ruger p95. it was my first handgun and it was an excellent choice. i totally put my trust in a reputable gun store to help me out and they gave me great advice. it will be one gun i will never get rid of.

    a few reasons i like my p95...

    1. great to shoot right out of the box, i was a novice and i hit the target right off the bat. i had previously had some accuracy issues with a friends glock...
    2. easy to field strip, it has ONE more part than a glock during take down. still quite easy to learn, cleaning it is a cinch.
    3. have never had ANY issues with it using 115 grain 9mm which is a common type of ammo
    4. i like the safety and the DA/SA, trigger is good, and the fact it is not striker fired, i don't have to worry about it if i dry fire it.
    5. built like a proverbial tank, you do not have to baby this firearm.
    6. you can't beat the price
    7. made in the usa with a reliable company to back it up.

    good luck

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