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  1. #1
    john doe. is offline Banned
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    I want! I Want! I WANT!

    Last edited by john doe.; 11-16-2007 at 02:28 PM.

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  3. #2
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    JeffWard is offline Senior Member
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    Veddy Niiiice... How Much? (In a Kazak accent)

  4. #3
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    Shipwreck is online now HGF Forum Moderator
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    We talked about this at the FN Forum recently, and I actually posted an article about it - there will be a civilian carbine version.

  5. #4
    Todd is offline Banned
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    They had that featured on an episode of Super Weapons a couple months back Looked cool as hell.

  6. #5
    john doe. is offline Banned
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    Civilian model is suppose to be out in 2008. I have yet to see a price. I have a pod cast from Future Weapons were he tested this. Nice! Very NICE!

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    Yup, seen that also on the Military Channel.

    I hope our troops are issued those.

  8. #7
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    Somebody sent that link to me a few months ago...

    Am I the only one who thinks that design looks more complicated then a standard SMG and necessitates a shorter barrel?

  9. #8
    Wandering Man's Avatar
    Wandering Man is offline GM HGF Gold Member
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    hmmmm ....

    1100 rounds a minute of .45 ACP ...

    right now it costs me about .23 a round to make ...

    $253 a minute for shooting pleasure?

    I could be bankrupt by Thanksgiving!

    I'll stick to a more sedate rate of fire.

    WM
    Never argue with drunks or crazy people.

  10. #9
    Mike Barham's Avatar
    Mike Barham is offline Senior Member
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    I like the innovative spirit. But as a semi-auto, what will it do that can't be accomplished by any semi-auto, pistol-caliber carbine? I mean, will it really be that much better than even a 1928 Thompson, never mind a Beretta Storm, once it is neutered?

    As far as it being issued to the military, at least outside the Secret Squirrel Ninja community, the likelihood of that happening is practically nonexistent. There's just no real use for a submachinegun as general issue, and .45ACP isn't readily available in the supply system anyway.

    I know, I know, the marketing copy says:

    In addition, the SMG platform was chosen as it potentially fills a gap in the global arms portfolio that is gaining increased attention as the battlefield moves to more close-in urban and mechanized combat, which requires hi-power,adjustable ROF and highly maneuverable weapon frames.
    Well, since the M4 works - and HAS worked, many times - at literal point-blank range, I don't really see a gap in "close-in urban" combat. Mechanized combat? I think they are talking about mounted patrolling in HMMWVs or MRAPs, and not armor engagements between tanks. Most of this kind of fighting is handled by crew-served weapons, and if troops dismount it is usually to clear a structure. Again, the old M4 works fine here, and is very maneuverable inside a building.

    Not sure why an adjustable rate of fire is required. Most shooting from individual weapons in theater is on semiauto. Very few situations call for burst fire from a handheld weapon. Rather, rapid and accurate semiauto fire is generally used.

    I dunno. Seems like a solution in search of a problem. I think PDW type weapons like the FN P90 may eventually catch on, but this weapon, despite its innovative mechanism, seems like a retrograde step. I sure wouldn't take that weapon on a patrol if it was offered to me.
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  11. #10
    milquetoast is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskan_Viking View Post
    Somebody sent that link to me a few months ago...

    Am I the only one who thinks that design looks more complicated then a standard SMG and necessitates a shorter barrel?
    No, you are not the only one. I hate to be a spoilsport, but that is one of those things that looks cool, but has no practical benefits, and some real drawbacks.

    This is not a new design. It looks to me like it is the "reverse toggle" system (think upside down Luger). Except for being upside down, the mechanism dates back to the Borchardt, from the late 19th Century!

    By putting the action in front of the trigger guard, it destroys the balance of the weapon by making it front-heavy. It does reduce felt recoil though; hanging a pile of weight out on the front does that.

    As noted, it leaves less room for the barrel. The same thing is true of the Broomhandle Mauser, the Thompson SMG and even the MP5. The magazine in front of the trigger guard means the bullet doesn't hit the rifling until it is several inches down the gun. Adding the operating mechanism to the mix just makes it worse. Long gun, short barrel - not an efficient design.

    The folks at Mag-Pul have proposed that it be reconfigured as a bullpup. Put the magazine inside the pistol grip; put the action behind the trigger group instead of in front, and you've got something. They have pictures of the Kriss design, and their own suggested improvement, here:

    http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...lnk&cd=1&gl=us

    Compare, and you'll see the bullpup is much more practical. IMO, it would be better to re-design the old Ingram M10 (MAC-10) with better ergonomics (grip/safety/sights), modern plastics, and a way to reduce the cyclic rate and improve the trigger pull, perhaps by figuring out how to run it from a closed bolt. A compact package like that would have practical applications, not just Star Wars looks.

  12. #11
    mvslay is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Not sure why an adjustable rate of fire is required. Most shooting from individual weapons in theater is on semiauto. Very few situations call for burst fire from a handheld weapon. Rather, rapid and accurate semiauto fire is generally used.
    Agreed
    1. Aimed fire is far more intimidating than spray and pray fire.
    2. If you've ever seen an experienced IPSC shooter, you know what aimed semi auto fire is capable of. Especially if you've seen an A level or higher shooter.
    3. If the "knock down" power of the the .45 ACP is it's primary benifit than why do I need to fire large quantities of it at a single target in a CQB situation.
    4. I've always been told/ believed that the MG's or SMG's primary role is to lay suppresive fire so fellow sqad/fire team members can move to better positions while the bad guys heads are down. If you actually hit that's bonus. In that role overall round count is more important than actual power of the round. Meaning mags of 9mm have more rounds than .45 mags.

    Like Mike said I respect the spirit of innovation, but to me it just doesn't fill a real need.

    Finally, having it suggested as a police weapon is just absurd. The last thing you want is a bunch of stray .45's in a home or appartment complex. Keep the M4's the dept. already has for the swat team. They'll last virtually forever.

  13. #12
    Mike Barham's Avatar
    Mike Barham is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by milquetoast View Post
    The folks at Mag-Pul have proposed that it be reconfigured as a bullpup. Put the magazine inside the pistol grip; put the action behind the trigger group instead of in front, and you've got something...Compare, and you'll see the bullpup is much more practical.
    The problem with bullpups is that the LOP is invariably made too long. Try shooting a Steyr AUG, for example, from a squared-up fighting stance while wearing body armor of the IBA/IOTV type. It's practically impossible. Reloading is also less efficient with a bullpup versus a standard configuration. I could forgive the latter, but not the former.

    Perhaps they can come up with an adjustable stock length on their bullpup redesign. But it's still just a weak submachinegun, which has extremely limited use in the military context, having been superceded by short assault rifles. Much the same can be said for the police market, though I suppose somewhat less so since a police officer is less likely to face an armored opponent than is a soldier.

    I am not sure what practical use a bullpup carbine in .45ACP would serve for the civilian market, beyond being a range toy. It would be okay for home defense, but no better than other weapons. And again, what could it do that can't already be accomplished by a Beretta Storm or similar?
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  14. #13
    milquetoast is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    The problem with bullpups is that the LOP is invariably made too long. Try shooting a Steyr AUG, for example, from a squared-up fighting stance while wearing body armor of the IBA/IOTV type. It's practically impossible. Reloading is also less efficient with a bullpup versus a standard configuration. I could forgive the latter, but not the former.

    Perhaps they can come up with an adjustable stock length on their bullpup redesign. But it's still just a weak submachinegun, which has extremely limited use in the military context, having been superceded by short assault rifles. Much the same can be said for the police market, though I suppose somewhat less so since a police officer is less likely to face an armored opponent than is a soldier.

    I am not sure what practical use a bullpup carbine in .45ACP would serve for the civilian market, beyond being a range toy. It would be okay for home defense, but no better than other weapons. And again, what could it do that can't already be accomplished by a Beretta Storm or similar?
    Well in my case, of course, it would join all the other range toys! The full-auto pistol caliber subgun belongs in a car, or under a coat. Consider the Secret Service guys with their Uzis. The Uzi is nice. Now make it smaller and lighter, in a major caliber. In a car, the problem with the Beretta Storm (to use your example) or a carbine is that you can't swing it around, can't switch from shooting from right side to left side. OAL is too long.

    Look at the photos on the Mag-Pul website. Good LOP, no?

    Just the ticket for deploying quickly from a car, or fighting from inside a car, or guarding bodies while wearing a suit coat, but no, definitely not a general issue weapon.

  15. #14
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milquetoast View Post
    Well in my case, of course, it would join all the other range toys! The full-auto pistol caliber subgun belongs in a car, or under a coat. Consider the Secret Service guys with their Uzis. The Uzi is nice. Now make it smaller and lighter, in a major caliber.
    Looking at the pics on the Mag-Pul site, I see that by making it into a bullpup, they have raised the bore axis very considerably compared to the original design. Comparing it to your example of the Uzi (a weapon with which I was not terribly impressed, though I have very limited trigger time on it), I have to question how controllable it will be. Minus the depressed bore axis, and making it lighter and more powerful than the Uzi, it seems to me it will be rather difficult to control. But maybe I am wrong and the mechanism will make it easier to control than I envision.

    In a car, the problem with the Beretta Storm (to use your example) or a carbine is that you can't swing it around, can't switch from shooting from right side to left side. OAL is too long.
    True, but I was talking about civilian-legal guns. Make the OAL of the TDI/Mag-Pul design 26" for NFA purposes, with a minimum 16" barrel, and it will also be unwieldy inside a car. Although, we manage to do okay with our M4s inside very cramped HMMWVs, though we don't usually shoot through open windows.

    Look at the photos on the Mag-Pul website. Good LOP, no?
    Yes, the LOP is fine. I retract my previous statement involving the AUG.

    Just the ticket for deploying quickly from a car, or fighting from inside a car, or guarding bodies while wearing a suit coat, but no, definitely not a general issue weapon.
    Agreed. You're describing scenarios almost exclusively related to executive protection missions. Joe Sixpack carrying a rifle in his trunk for general emergencies has a wider latitude in gun choice than the narrow and specialized field of VIP protection. Joe Sixpack isn't going to carry anything bigger than a pistol under his coat. And Joe Sixpack probably isn't going to be able to drive and shoot a subgun out the window.

    GI Joe has no use for a submachinegun when he can have an M4. LEOs have M4s (or M4geries) now, too, and they are far more versatile than any subgun.

    I wonder about the .45ACP chambering, too, from the VIP protection standpoint. Anyone likely to mount a coordinated assault on a VIP is very likely to be wearing armor. .45ACP performs rather poorly against armor. Would not something like the "icepick" 5.7mm FN round do better, since it will at least get through soft armor?

    I have to question how big the executive protection market actually is, and if it can sustain the manufacture of such a weapon. It seems like a comparatively tiny market to me. Maybe I am wrong. Somebody must be buying the Micro Uzis and MP5Ks.
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  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by milquetoast View Post
    IMO, it would be better to re-design the old Ingram M10 (MAC-10) with better ergonomics (grip/safety/sights), modern plastics, and a way to reduce the cyclic rate and improve the trigger pull, perhaps by figuring out how to run it from a closed bolt. A compact package like that would have practical applications, not just Star Wars looks.
    Or you could just use an MP9.

    EDIT: I mean the Brugger+Thomet MP9/Steyr TMP and not the Ruger MP9.

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