The one thing about teh cooler months ahead is that carrying concealed will be a little easier. I like my P226 Sig a lot more then

I like my p3at also!

Originally Posted by spacedoggy

The one thing I don't want to happen to me is someday be in a situation wear I needed to defend myself or even worst defend my wife that means more to me than anything in this world and not have the necessary items on me. Now when I get dress to go to church and I leave my holster off it feels strange.

Why are you taking your gun off to go to church? Criminals may not come to church, but crazy pople do.
Your opponent gets to choose the field of battle. Your opponent gets to choose the time of battle.
ALLWAYS be armed. If you are not armed and your opponent is, you are at a further disadvantage.

As police investigate a violent Saturday morning church service in suburban Milwaukee, it appears none of the congregation was worried, or had any reason to be, when they saw Terry Ratzmann, 44, walk into the service.

It had been a couple of weeks since he had last joined the Living Church of God congregation at the Sheraton Hotel conference room in Brookfield where they regularly held worship services, which he usually attended. Friends and neighbors describe Ratzmann as a buttoned-down churchgoer known for sharing homegrown vegetables with his neighbors.

But seconds after he walked into the room, he opened fire on the group, unloading 22 bullets from a 9 mm handgun within a minute. Before the shooting stopped, the pastor, the pastor's son, and five other church members were dead, four others were wounded, and Ratzmann had killed himself.

Originally Posted by Old Padawan

Why are you taking your gun off to go to church? Criminals may not come to church, but crazy pople do.
Your opponent gets to choose the field of battle. Your opponent gets to choose the time of battle.
ALLWAYS be armed. If you are not armed and your opponent is, you are at a further disadvantage.

As police investigate a violent Saturday morning church service in suburban Milwaukee, it appears none of the congregation was worried, or had any reason to be, when they saw Terry Ratzmann, 44, walk into the service.

It had been a couple of weeks since he had last joined the Living Church of God congregation at the Sheraton Hotel conference room in Brookfield where they regularly held worship services, which he usually attended. Friends and neighbors describe Ratzmann as a buttoned-down churchgoer known for sharing homegrown vegetables with his neighbors.

But seconds after he walked into the room, he opened fire on the group, unloading 22 bullets from a 9 mm handgun within a minute. Before the shooting stopped, the pastor, the pastor's son, and five other church members were dead, four others were wounded, and Ratzmann had killed himself.

It's the LAW in Texas. I will not wear a gun where it is against the law like schools, Federal Buildings. If I got caught wearing my sidearm at CHURCH and there are LEO's that go to my CHURCH and it gets out that a Texas CHL holder has been arrested for a weapons violation in a CHURCH, who does that hurt? It hurts all of us and gives the CHL holders a bad name. Now if I got busted wearing one into a Post Office to drop off a letter that still would look bad but not as bad as getting caught in CHURCH. Ya got to understand that. I know where you’re coming from and I almost stop going to Church but that would only hurt me. The LEO’s have them on so at least I know I’m somewhat protect.

If you have kids would you send them armed to school because of all the school shootings. I could use your argument for that. If they stopped the CHL program and no one was allowed to carry then I would be carrying everywhere, even CHURCH.

I'm not a CCL holder (Yet) but Ky allows for me to carry as long as it can be seen and that is exactly what I do. I am careful to adhere to ALL laws as to where I wear my pistol on my person as well as in my vehicle. to do otherwise would just give ammo to those that want to take my rights away. Though it is true that some nut can catch me off guard on a Sunday morning I'll just have to take that risk. In the county I used to live in had a range that many county, state, and even Federal LEO used and I have talked to as many as possible on the subject of the handgun laws here. They will be the first to say that one person that tries to something on principal (like carry in a no carry posted place) can do more damage than anything. You will never hear about a traffic stop where firearms are legally handled. But one man walks into a courthouse, church, school and it will probably get press coverage on much more than the local level and give the Hillery Clintons of the world another reason to take the CC rights we have now away.

It's a lot easier to have your CCW taken from you or no be allowed to get it at all than it is to et it in the first place.

Originally Posted by spacedoggy

I use to carry on and off when I lived in CT. I feel safer here in Texas but I carry a primary and secondary pistol at all times. I have one in my manbag that I take to the car every time I leave. It has mags, flashlights, spare everything and my Judge for my car defense.

Today I asked my wife if it bother her that I wear a gun at all time, even my pajama kel-tec and carry all this stuff. She said not at all, makes her feel safer.

The one thing I don't want to happen to me is someday be in a situation wear I needed to defend myself or even worst defend my wife that means more to me than anything in this world and not have the necessary items on me. Now when I get dress to go to church and I leave my holster off it feels strange. I take everything with me in my bag and after church when I'm leaving the parking lot I am loading up. One time I told my wife I would wait in the car as she was talking with many after church. I watch and I swear it looked like every other car, trucks down here, when leaving looked like people were arming themselves. I did see three pistols two coming from the center box and one from the glovebox in three trucks. That day I would have to say around 25 people were getting their gear on when leaving the parking lot. That's when I said I'm sure glad I live in Texas. If my gun jams there is a dam good change that another Texan will be there to back me up.

Hey Spacedoggy! We are glad you are a Texan also. Good people always welcome here. My better half is from Ohio. She came here for a short visit about twenty years ago, went home and loaded up and moved to Texas. She now considers herself to be a Texan. People that come to Texas and become Texans volutarily are just as much a Texan as those of us that were fortunate enough to be born here.
I have been known to carry in church and my wife was packin in a Galco purse. Felt kinda strange though.
We almost met one time and probably will someday. We are still looking to move out there. We did put a contract on a house in S/E Tyler but dropped off contract because of a crappy inspection. Looks like it's going to be a slow process.

Originally Posted by spacedoggy

It's the LAW in Texas. I will not wear a gun where it is against the law like schools, Federal Buildings. If I got caught wearing my sidearm at CHURCH and there are LEO's that go to my CHURCH and it gets out that a Texas CHL holder has been arrested for a weapons violation in a CHURCH, who does that hurt? It hurts all of us and gives the CHL holders a bad name. Now if I got busted wearing one into a Post Office to drop off a letter that still would look bad but not as bad as getting caught in CHURCH. Ya got to understand that. I know where you’re coming from and I almost stop going to Church but that would only hurt me. The LEO’s have them on so at least I know I’m somewhat protect.

If you have kids would you send them armed to school because of all the school shootings. I could use your argument for that. If they stopped the CHL program and no one was allowed to carry then I would be carrying everywhere, even CHURCH.

Wow I guess I didn’t know that it was against the law in Texas... bummer. But good call not violating the CHL stuff, that would make Not only you but and CHL holders look bad but the church as well. The Church doesn’t need anymore bad press than it already gets, that’s for sure.

Originally Posted by tnoisaw

I carry my P3AT to church. It's small enough and violence, sadley, happens all to often in church. What better place to find unarmed people.

It is sad but true and I think with the ever growing threat of radical Islam carrying in church has become a necessity. I have three ushers at my church that carry, one former military, one deputy sheriff and one gun store owner.

I am 6'4" and I weigh in at 230Lbs... 25 oz... 35oz... My personal weight fluctuates that much in a day and I can easily conceal a 5 inch 1911 on my person (not that I have one any more but the XD I’m getting mid January will de the 5 inch model). I think when it comes to concealed carry the name of the game is being prepared no matter how many targets and a single stack affords me less opportunity to engage multiple targets. Just my 2 cents.

Originally Posted by spacedoggy

It's the LAW in Texas. I will not wear a gun where it is against the law like schools, Federal Buildings. If I got caught wearing my sidearm at CHURCH and there are LEO's that go to my CHURCH and it gets out that a Texas CHL holder has been arrested for a weapons violation in a CHURCH, who does that hurt? It hurts all of us and gives the CHL holders a bad name. Now if I got busted wearing one into a Post Office to drop off a letter that still would look bad but not as bad as getting caught in CHURCH. Ya got to understand that. I know where you’re coming from and I almost stop going to Church but that would only hurt me. The LEO’s have them on so at least I know I’m somewhat protect.

If you have kids would you send them armed to school because of all the school shootings. I could use your argument for that. If they stopped the CHL program and no one was allowed to carry then I would be carrying everywhere, even CHURCH.

The above is incorrect. It is not against the law in Texas to carry in church. It is only against the law to carry where there is a particular sign that prohibits carry. Therefore, if a church is not posted with this sign, then it is ok to carry.

PhilR.
(Texan w/chl)

Unfortunately, the concealed weapons laws in Arkansas expressly prohibit carrying in Church just as you can't carry in a courthouse or etc.

Originally Posted by PhilR.

The above is incorrect. It is not against the law in Texas to carry in church. It is only against the law to carry where there is a particular sign that prohibits carry. Therefore, if a church is not posted with this sign, then it is ok to carry.

PhilR.
(Texan w/chl)

Sorry Phil your wrong on this one. If you have the 2005 - 2006 book on page 36 PC46.035 #(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

This is the page that lists where you can't carry and signs are not required to be posted. It's the same as a school, correctional facility on and on.

A good rule of thumb, always check it out yourself and don't take the word of anyone of us. Most of the time facts have a tendency to be non-repentance.

I just found the new book online. It's form LS-16 which is the 2007-2008 book and look on page 40 #6. I know they make this stuff hard to understand. Let me know if I'm right on this one. That will make it the second time in my life.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/forms/index.htm#chls

Originally Posted by spacedoggy

Sorry Phil your wrong on this one. If you have the 2005 - 2006 book on page 36 PC46.035 #(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

This is the page that lists where you can't carry and signs are not required to be posted. It's the same as a school, correctional facility on and on.

A good rule of thumb, always check it out yourself and don't take the word of anyone of us. Most of the time facts have a tendency to be non-repentance.

I just found the new book online. It's form LS-16 which is the 2007-2008 book and look on page 40 #6. I know they make this stuff hard to understand. Let me know if I'm right on this one. That will make it the second time in my life.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/forms/index.htm#chls

§ 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the
license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or
license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic
Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its
income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate,
or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking
place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a
handgun is used in the event;
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under
Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing
home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the
license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing
home administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other
established place of religious worship.
(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a
governmental entity.
(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while
intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the
authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless
of whether the handgun is concealed.
(e) A license holder who is licensed as a security officer
under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, and employed as a security
officer commits an offense if, while in the course and scope of the
security officer's employment, the security officer violates a
provision of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(f) In this section:
(1) "Amusement park" means a permanent indoor or
outdoor facility or park where amusement rides are available for
use by the public that is located in a county with a population of
more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface
area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is
open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has
security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not
include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or
walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
(2) "License holder" means a person licensed to carry
a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a
building. The term does not include any public or private driveway,
street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other
parking area.
(g) An offense under Subsection (a), (b), (c), (d), or (e)
is a Class A misdemeanor, unless the offense is committed under
Subsection (b)(1) or (b)(3), in which event the offense is a felony
of the third degree.
(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that
the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed
the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been
justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9.
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.
(j) Subsections (a) and (b)(1) do not apply to a historical
reenactment performed in compliance with the rules of the Texas
Alcoholic Beverage Commission.


It is too bad that you never read the whole thing, especially subsection (i). Many people, instructors as well, make the mistake of reading down to B6 and no further. This would be the mistake you made. A good rule of thumb is to always check it out yourself and to read everything, and don't assume. But don't take my word for it. You're a member of TexasCHL forum -- go there and see for yourself....

PhilR.

Originally Posted by PhilR.

§ 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the
license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or
license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic
Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its
income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate,
or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking
place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a
handgun is used in the event;
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under
Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing
home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the
license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing
home administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other
established place of religious worship.
(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a
governmental entity.
(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while
intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the
authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless
of whether the handgun is concealed.
(e) A license holder who is licensed as a security officer
under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, and employed as a security
officer commits an offense if, while in the course and scope of the
security officer's employment, the security officer violates a
provision of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(f) In this section:
(1) "Amusement park" means a permanent indoor or
outdoor facility or park where amusement rides are available for
use by the public that is located in a county with a population of
more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface
area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is
open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has
security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not
include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or
walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
(2) "License holder" means a person licensed to carry
a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a
building. The term does not include any public or private driveway,
street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other
parking area.
(g) An offense under Subsection (a), (b), (c), (d), or (e)
is a Class A misdemeanor, unless the offense is committed under
Subsection (b)(1) or (b)(3), in which event the offense is a felony
of the third degree.
(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that
the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed
the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been
justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9.
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.
(j) Subsections (a) and (b)(1) do not apply to a historical
reenactment performed in compliance with the rules of the Texas
Alcoholic Beverage Commission.


It is too bad that you never read the whole thing, especially subsection (i). Many people, instructors as well, make the mistake of reading down to B6 and no further. This would be the mistake you made. A good rule of thumb is to always check it out yourself and to read everything, and don't assume. But don't take my word for it. You're a member of TexasCHL forum -- go there and see for yourself....

PhilR.

I,m still confused. I called my instructor and he said no. I read what you said and there was silence for about 30 seconds. I said you still there. He said "I'll call you back"

Why can't they write this stuff up for the common people? Who is the actor?

Dang it! I always thought it was illegal in a church here also. Now I'm a little confused. Maybe we need to know what "effective notice" is. I'm stumped!!

My instructor called back and Phil is right. Thanks for setting me straight Phil. I will feel better Sunday after all the new shootings going on.

Originally Posted by spacedoggy

My instructor called back and Phil is right. Thanks for setting me straight Phil. I will feel better Sunday after all the new shootings going on.

Hey - no problem. That you didn't know doesn't bother me, but the fact that your instructor didn't know is a bit disconcerting.

be safe,
PhilR.

Brings up a subject.. me being a total newb to handguns with intent for a CC license.. I gotta find out about handgun laws in NC, and laws pertaining to air-conditioning a perp that brings himself unlawfully into the home of my children while they sleep.. I've got googlin' to do on that for sure.

But I can imagine for a concealed carry gun.. for comfort, thin would definitely be in even for compromise of the quantity of rounds ..... Hence products like Walther's new PPS.

Try here: http://www.handgunlaw.us/
Also go to the area on the first forum page, scroll down and find the area for your state. Ask there. I'm sure you'll get a response.

Originally Posted by hideit

is thin really coming back especially for ccw

Originally Posted by Lowdrift

~ for some of us, it never left ...

Thin never left.

Originally Posted by babs

But I can imagine for a concealed carry gun.. for comfort, thin would definitely be in even for compromise of the quantity of rounds ..... Hence products like Walther's new PPS.

I read somewhere that Walther came up with the PPS line for a secondary firearm and to compete with the pocket pistols and offer it in a 9mm. The only other company that I know of that has done this is kel-tec with it's P-9.
The reason Walther offers 3 levels of magazines is to allow you to make what level of consealment you might want. I have put one in my front pocket of my 5.11 pants that I wear 99% of the time with a 38 sp snub. It needs less room than my 38 put it did not have a mag in it at the time.

I agree with your statement and suggest to anyone who buys one to use it as a backup gun.

I'm a fan of the single stack for carry. I've also been contemplating shooting my Kimber on Tuesday USPSA league nights (I usually shoot a Para P-14 in limited). The new single stack rules for IPSC seem to confirm the single stack renaissance. Also I believe the Production and Single stack Divisions are geared toward competing with IDPA (sorta best of both worlds, IPSC game style rules, but without a ton of specialized gear).

One accessory I'd like to find for my single stack would be a pocket carry double mag pouch to fit the back pocket of my Levi's. Just something to keep the mags upright and pocket lint out.

I love my Glock, but, at 5'11", 186 lbs., it's difficult to conceal, especially now that I really like the Galco Concealable Belt Holster. At 4 o'clock my 232 or 239 single stacks are virtually undetectable, even in a pair of shorts and a sleeveless jersey. I keep the Glock at home except during the winter.

I just bought a Kahr CW9 for it's this profile.

The advent of widespread concealed carry will reintroduce many weapons systems to single stack, more concealable magazines. We will learn, once more, that a massive pile of ammunition, though excellent for uniformed law enforcement personnel, is not at all necessary for am armed citizen carrying handguns covertly.

One should prepare for potential crises in a realistic manner. Having a handgun concealed, with enough rounds for self defense, a weapon that one can and will carry, is of considerably more import than having a high-capacity weapon that one left at home, or in the car.

I am in southern Arizona. The Border Patrol agents at our checkpoints are carrying four, high capacity magazines in addition to the one in their guns. I am carrying five in my Smith Airlite T. We both have what we need.

Single stacks were out?

What I think is really coming back is the J Frame.

AFS