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  1. #26
    870ShellShucker's Avatar
    870ShellShucker is offline Junior Member
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    When I was younger, we hardly ever had any ear plugs on when we shot. Most of us didn't even own a pair. Now, I always wear them when I am shooting targets. I don't wear them when I'm hunting, though. I fired 11 shots with a 12 Gauge while on a hunt last weekend, and it didn't ring my ears one bit. But, I was in big timber, far off the road. It seems like sound waves bounce off of houses and buildings and increase the perceived volume when I practice. (I don't live in town.)

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  3. #27
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    shotguns dont usually bother me unless my girlfriend happens to have the barrel parallel to my ear lol that was concusive lol but anything bigger than a 9mm in a pistol about rocks my world lol

  4. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 870ShellShucker View Post
    ...It seems like sound waves bounce off of houses and buildings and increase the perceived volume when I practice. (I don't live in town.)
    My loss happened in open scrub forest, in a clearing that is 100 yards by 50 yards.

    Don't kid yourself.



    (There are devices you can wear within your ears that allow you to hear normal sounds, but which shut down when strong sound waves are detected.)

  5. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by 870ShellShucker View Post
    There are several 125 Grain HP rounds for the .357 which are higher in both velocity and foot-pounds of energy than the one you just cited. From the "old standard" Federal JHP at 1440fps and 575 ft-lbs, to the Hornady XTP at 1500fps and 624 ft-lbs of energy.

    The Hornady XTP .357 Magnum at 624 ft-lbs toes the line pretty well with the 10mm.

    Numerous current handguns are offered in .357, as well as there being a huge supply of used handguns in .357. The 125 Grain ammo is plentiful, and offered by every company under the sun. There are numerous HP designs available to choose from. The .357 didn't fall out of favor with law enforcement agencies because it didn't do its job well. They simply wanted higher capacity, without having to deal with a giant revolver cylinder.

    You know, for this to be the General Revolver Area, there sure are a lot of semi-auto fans hanging out here.
    As far as the revolver/semi-auto deal, I follow the Federal EEO (Equal Employment Opportunity) rules and have plenty of each type in the name of diversity.

    And back to the "load number comparison, where you keep moving the goalposts.
    After your citing your "Hornady XTP .357 Magnum at 624 ft-lbs. toes the line pretty well with the 10mm" I actually see "my" 10mm hot load was "better" by quite a bit.
    Doubletap has this pretty hot 10mm Auto self-defense load in the "fairly rare" 125 grain category.
    125 grain Barnes TAC-XP hollowpoint.
    1600 fps, 710 ft-lb energy. At the muzzle.


    A tiny bit of mathematics shows "my 710" versus "your 624" has my 10mm load with 13.7821 % more energy than your "toes the line pretty well" weak sister .357 Mag load. So there. Take That.
    And while we are casting stones, energy is properly expressed in lb.-ft. Not ft.-lbs. Torque is in ft.-lbs. I just normally go along with "accepted" (but incorrect) practice.

    For our next pissing contest (or is it "who has the biggest d_ck?) I suggest shifting to "who's got the biggest gun and the hottest load actually strapped to their hip?"

    I've skipped right over the .44 Mag. My carry revolver is a Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan 2 1/2" snubby in .454 Casull.
    Carry Load: Win Supreme Elite Dual Bond 260 grain JHP.
    1800 fps, 1870 ft-lb.
    Practice Load: Magtech 260 grain SJSP (Semi Jacketed Soft Point).
    1800 fps, 1870 ft-lb. (yes, there is a reason it matches my carry load).

    Your turn.
    Can you raise me a S&W .500 ? (max. energy).
    Or a S&W .460 ? (max. velocity).
    Both are certainly more "manly" than my .454 Casull.

    And I'd hazard a guess that any of the above three "placed to the center of mass" sternum might be "one-shot stoppers".
    And possibly the next two or three folks stacked behind "the perp".

    OK, enough touch-typing fun.
    Any intelligent person knows the "best one-shot stop" deal is impossible to determine scientifically.
    Not enough good data. Never will be. Who "bets their life" and stops after one shot "to collect valid data".

    Now, I've got a few chores to do. Really, this was just all in fun while waiting for football to start. Peace.

  6. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    . . . (There are devices you can wear within your ears that allow you to hear normal sounds, but which shut down when strong sound waves are detected.)
    Sorry for your loss.
    I am VERY lucky. For years I worked around unmuffled race cars. First at drag strips next to funny cars and top fuelers. As in standing between them.
    Then a lot more years around unmuffled road-race cars. There really is no "scientific reason" to account for my hearing at age 69 being "acceptable".

    I wear electronic earmuffs when shooting. I like the "normal sounds are amplified, but loud is chopped" type. Actually, not "chopped out", but attenuated.
    I like to wear them when hiking and "stalking" animals for photos also. Unless a wind is blowing. Then they'll drive you crazy. Time for the off switch.

  7. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanP_from_AZ View Post
    ...Unless a wind is blowing. Then they'll drive you crazy. Time for the off switch.
    ...Just like my high-end hearing aids!

  8. #32
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    I actually see "my" 10mm hot load was "better" by quite a bit.
    My point was that you initially compared an average velocity 125 grain .357 hollow point load, to a red hot 10mm 125 grain load, showing a great disparity between the two. I was simply pointing out that the .357 could close the gap with the 10mm round you referred to, somewhat, if we compared the hottest factory loads of each. I also knew very well that a .41 magnum, .44 magnum, .460, .500, etc. would have more knock-down power than a .357; as you can see I never claimed that the .357 was the most powerful handgun in the world.

    Decades ago, a study by the FBI said that the 125 grain .357 JHP was the best, based upon real-world data at the time, and the factory offerings for the .357 have continued to get better since then.

  9. #33
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    The so called "one shot stop" theory is junk science. The theory or testing relies on a plethora of unprovable variables. Likewise this testing is outdated. The mental state, shot placement, what loading was used, what organs, and/or if the central nervous system was hit, the physical makeup of the individual, what type of clothing, etc.......must all be created equal to make this theory anywhere near legitimate. Unfortunately, if taken from real life shootings there would be no way to know if the same individual who succumbed to a .357 would not have succumbed to a 40., .45 or 9mm under the same exact set of circumstances provided they all used the same type of hollowpoint.

  10. #34
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    denner has a very good point as he is correct on how everything would have to be the same without these variables to have an accurate testing. much props on things people usually think of to create a better understanding on how a round will work under a stressful situation, but from another standpoint where i believe 870 is coming from, there should be much recognition to this round, it is extremely versitile and comes in a wide range of frames, designs, company logos, etc... i personally love a .357 for home defense as for the ballistics and stopping power, as it is undeniably a very powerful round. unless you go bigger such as a 44mag, 500, 10mm in the automatic, etc... the .357 still has a managable recoil, dont get me wrong it will definately let you know its there after sqeezing the trigger. but i believe it is and always will be a very popular round and has incredible ballistics to back it up as a 30 caliber handgun will never live up to. and i said 30 caliber HANDGUN so there is no confusion. i believe in it whole heartedly to protect me at my home but it is not what i carry as it is too bulky and i believe in having more than enought rounds at the ready to back me up(more than 6) but i believe this is what he was inplying just my 2 cents and my opinion on the matter
    45Sidekick

  11. #35
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    as in one shot stop, noones to know the best unless its a 12 guage at 5ft from target at center mast with 00 buckshot in the chamber different people, different scenerios, etc all play a factor so its something we'll never know for sure

  12. #36
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    But my, hasn't it been a robust discussion? The truth is, there are several great options available. The .40 and .45 are both awesome, the 9mm and .38 are pretty good in their own right, and the .357 hangs in there with pretty much anything. I admittedly have no experience with the 10mm, but do know personally that the .44 is a hand-canon. So much recoil, and so much time to get back on target, but what a heck of a first shot.

    The .357 has all the recoil I'd want to have to deal with in a defensive situation. Unless a perp was on PCP, he'd never stand a chance.

  13. #37
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    this is true

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    Quote Originally Posted by 870ShellShucker View Post
    But my, hasn't it been a robust discussion? . . .
    That is sure a refreshing attitude.
    I'm an long-winded and opinonated old "you know what". And a lot of people don't take kindly to "that".

    I just deleted another too long reply on valid statistical studies and verifiable computer modeling that have been done.
    And can't be done for "bullet stops". Denner has a very good take on "problems". It is even more complex than that.

    I've never fired a .44 Mag, but have spent a fair amount of time with .454 Casull hot hollow-point loads in my Alaskan.
    It's hell on water-filled milk jugs. A REAL BIG step up over full-power .45 Long Colt hollowpoints.

    But it's not on my nightstand. That is the job of my Beretta 92FS. And it's job is to give my time to reach the Mossberg 500 eight-shot.
    Use the proper tool for the proper job, and you won't skin your knuckles. Or worse.

  15. #39
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    handguns are just a way to keep a perp occupied until you can get your hands on a real gun lol, i have a mossberg 835 sawed off pump with 6 shells as my door-stop for such an occasion lol

  16. #40
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    Every country boy should have a 12 Gauge Pump, and a .357 Revolver. They just "feel" right. I appreciate other guns too, but these two should be on everyone's short list. They ought to be experienced. Thank God for the 2nd Ammendment.

    On a side note, I'm having more fun with my Heritage Rough Rider 6.5" SA 22LR than I ought to be able to for the price. It has Fixed sights, but I filed down the front blade to be dead on elevation wise at 10' and 20'. At 10' it hits about 3/4" to the Left, and at 20' it hits about 1.5" to the Left. At 30', it leaves the bullseye, about 2" High and 3" to the Left. Beyond 30', it starts getting crazy. At 75', it hits about a Foot from where I aim. I still intend to try some of the CCI Shotshells that have 165 #12 Lead Pellets in them. I bought a couple of boxes of them, but I haven't put any on paper yet.

  17. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45Sidekick View Post
    handguns are just a way to keep a perp occupied until you can get your hands on a real gun lol, i have a mossberg 835 sawed off pump with 6 shells as my door-stop for such an occasion lol
    I have a Rem 870 handy as well... just make sure your "sawed off" shotgun still measures over 18 " closed bolt (less firing pin) / 26" overall length.... if you ever have to use it, and it's short of either measurement, you're not gonna be a happy camper.

  18. #42
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    Love the "one shot stop" stuff. I hope people don't honestly believe this garbage. Furthermore, I hope people don't TRAIN this way. Shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. If it takes one .357mag, fine, but if all I had was a .357mag, and there were need to shoot something with it, I tend to believe that it'd get more than one just for good measure.

  19. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by zhurdan View Post
    Shoot until the threat is no longer a threat.
    Absolutely correct......

    Quote Originally Posted by zhurdan View Post
    but if all I had was a .357mag, and there were need to shoot something with it, I tend to believe that it'd get more than one just for good measure.
    If the threat ceases to be a threat, and you add one more just for good measure, the local prosecutor may be less than impressed.

  20. #44
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45Sidekick View Post
    agreed except the 357 sig is supposed to "duplicate" the ballistics to the magnum, yet is about 200fps slower on average to the famous magnum.
    Also, because the size of the bullet is different they needed to beef up the hollow point area so that it would not disintegrate. So the projectile is the same weight, but not the same exact configuration.

    Even when they duplicate the velocity they don't duplicate the results.

    But from everything I've ever read, the 125 grain Federal JHP in .357 has the best record for stopping bad guys. Everything else is just trying to be "just as good as..."

    Note that the .45 military round has always been listed as a major man-stopper. (And it is.) But it was being compared with other military rounds (all of which are full military jacketed). The size of the .45 does not translate into super results once you go to JHP in .45. Though it is certainly my first or second choice for personal protection. Not as effective as the .357 but (from my experience) vastly easier to learn to shoot really well.

    And that leads to the biggest failing of the .357. In the smaller sized weapons that make good carry pieces, the .357 can require significant amounts of practice; and that practice must be on-going to keep sharp. Brief lapses in training on the .45 would have less impact than similar lapses in .357 (based on my experience only).

  21. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcj View Post



    If the threat ceases to be a threat, and you add one more just for good measure, the local prosecutor may be less than impressed.
    You know what I mean. I run splits in the .18-.22 range on the timer. If two more rounds hit the bad guy in .5 seconds, they'll have a hard time pinning down exactly when the BG stopped becoming a threat.

  22. #46
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    Nice nice I have an old 870 myself and I cut the mossberg over legal lenght so its cool but it has a spread like crazy

  23. #47
    Packard is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcj View Post
    Absolutely correct......



    If the threat ceases to be a threat, and you add one more just for good measure, the local prosecutor may be less than impressed.
    Just tell them that you always trained for three-shot sequences; tap-tap-tap; tap-tap-tap.

    The minimum number of rounds I would put in a bad guy is three shots (unless I missed one shot, or two, or all three).

    Two guys it is: tap, tap; tap, tap. And then head shots: tap; tap. (If required)

  24. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Packard View Post
    Just tell them that you always trained for three-shot sequences; tap-tap-tap; tap-tap-tap.

    The minimum number of rounds I would put in a bad guy is three shots (unless I missed one shot, or two, or all three).

    Two guys it is: tap, tap; tap, tap. And then head shots: tap; tap. (If required)

    I truly hope you don't have to relate that to a real prosecutor, but best of luck to you if it comes to that.

  25. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcj View Post
    I truly hope you don't have to relate that to a real prosecutor, but best of luck to you if it comes to that.
    I'm not going to tell them anything. I'm going to call my sister-in-law (who defends all the gang-bangers with big dough) and tell her to take care of it.

    But I do train with a tap-tap; tap-tap; and then back again with two head shots; or one bad guy: tap-tap (torso), tap (head). So I would guess that is what I'd do in a real confrontation. You are supposed to shoot the way you practice; and practice the way you intend to shoot.

    "Gee, Mr. Prosecutor, I was trying to shoot the gun out of his hand. Must've been a flier that caught him between the eyes."

  26. #50
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    The only proven one shot stop is to hit the brain stem, caliber doesn't matter as long as you have the penetration. A brain shot will not do it (ask Gabby Giffords) by it's self and a center mass hit still requires either a bleed out or suffocation (oxygen starvation to the brain) which can take 6-10 seconds. If you sever the spine above the shoulders (neck shot) it will incapacitate the body and their ability to be a threat though the brain will still live on for a few seconds. Someone mentioned the Miami shootout. Manix was killed by a .357 bullet that hit his right eye socket ranged downward through his cheek into his neck and severed the spine. He had already been shot 5 times before that. Upon exiting their car, Platt took a 9mm in the upper right arm that penetrated the chest, took out the right lung but stopped short of the heart. He got off 42 rounds of .223 and 3 rounds each from 2 different .357 Mag revolvers before a hit to the chest penetrated and bruised the spine. Since he had almost a liter and a half of blood in the body cavity from the lung hit, it has always been a question as to whether he just bled out or the bruised spine stopped the fight. He took 12 hits before expiring. Unfortunate timing and bad tactics played a major part in the carnage. Platt's coolness under fire (he was an ex Army Ranger) and superior marksmanship with a .223 carbine left good men dead. FYI both Manix and Platt were drug free at the time of the shootout. Just like in hunting, it ain't the caliber, it's where you put the bullet and what it does after it gets there.

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