Originally Posted by PhilR.

Hello TOF,

A few weeks ago, you stated that a .357 load out of a 2.5" barrel is " no more than a good 9MM auto if that" and asked if I had chrono'ed the load I mentioned.* I finally got around to doing that, and can now answer your question. The Buffalo Bore 158gr. JHP chrono's at 1278fps out of the 386Sc/S that I had pictured (I had estimated 1300fps). That puts M.E. at about 580ft/lbs.

Now that I've answered your question and put my money where my mouth is, it's time to show us the depth of your statements. I would like to know which 9mm substantially beats the above M.E. (the "if that" part of your previous statement), or failing that, which 9mm is at least equal to the above. I wouldn't ask you to provide real-world chrono numbers - manufacturers published data will suffice for me. I hope you can come up with some info, as I do carry a 9mm quite often.

sincerely,
PhilR.
*the "Woods Carry Gun" thread

If you got those numbers then I was probably wrong. I searched but haven't yet found the post in question. Could you give me a date range for when i flapped my gums. I would like to refresh my memory regarding exactly what I did say.

The ammo and snubbies my friends and I ran our tests with did not achieve those numbers. We did not however have any Buffalo Bore ammo.

Originally Posted by TOF

Could you give me a date range for when i flapped my gums. I would like to refresh my memory regarding exactly what I did say.

Certainly -- that thread was started on 09 Feb '08, and was entitled "Woods carry gun".

PhilR.

Here is what I said

"
Post 1:
A .357 snubby sounds mean as all get out but the short barrel reduces effectiveness to no more than a good 9MM auto if that. You don't want to get 3 to 7 yards from wild animals either and that is your effective range from a moving target accuracy perspective. In a 4" and longer barrel you begin to realize the true potential of the magnum round and have an easier to aim revolver.

If I were to face off with a full grown Black Bear I would want 4" or more barrel. If racoons, coyotes and skunks are your game a Ruger Single Six in 22 Magnum would be about as effective as handguns get. They are accurate, easy to aim over a bit longer distances and use low cost ammo and will put down smaller animals. They can be effective against bad guy's also.


Post 2:
Have you ever chronographed those loads. We don't seem to get those velocities out of short barrels in Arizona. Our chrono data is more like 1100 FPS and less. Manufacturers advertised velocities and what you actualy get don't always agree."


OK Phil, what I stated was correct. My friends and I had tested 3 snubbies and achieved a maximum of 1097 FPS per our chronograph using some winchester and remington factory ammo and some full power reloads. We had also chronoed 147 grain 9MM rounds using Vihta Vuori N105 powder Loaded per The lee manual and achieved max of 1112 FPS.

I did not dispute your statement I simply asked if you had chronographed. Now that you have chronoed I will accept your numbers.

I still will not reccomend a snubby for someone potentialy facing off with a bear.

Here is some of Buffalo Bore's web site data. It doesn't look all that different from what I have experienced. Longer barrels yield higher velocities.

Short barrel load:
158gr. Speer Uni-core, (Gold Dot) hollow cavity, bullet @ 1,100fps
from a 2.5 inch barrel. It is designed to mushroom, yet hold together
and penetrate deeply—roughly 13 to 15 inches in human tissue.


Standard load:
1. 3 inch S&W J frame

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1476 fps


9MM +P+
3. Item 24C/20 (+p+) 147gr. Speer Uni Core

Browning Hi Power MK111, 4.6 inch barrel----------1179 fps
Beretta 92F, 4.9 inch barrel------------------------------1131 fps
Glock 19, 4.0 inch barrel---------------------------------1165 fps

Originally Posted by TOF

If I were to face off with a full grown Black Bear I would want 4" or more barrel.

I still will not reccomend a snubby for someone potentialy facing off with a bear.

You went back and re-read *your* posts, but evidently you didn't go back and read the original post. If you had, you would see that the OP wanted something for personal defense, and for smaller game. Bear wasn't mentioned at all, and in fact I pointed that out when I suggested a .357.

I too wouldn't want to face a bear with a .357 snubby -- no matter what the size of the barrel really, as IMO it's a marginal caliber for large carnivores, in handguns anyway. But then again, facing a bear was not the issue. You bring up a point that was not even needed in the first place, and which I didn't even address.

What I *did* address was a good self-defense caliber/gun, one that would satisfy all of the OP's requirements. Since you felt the need to respond to my post and post statements that a .357 barely equals a 9mm ("if that"), I decided to address your statements in the above post and show why a .357 can be a good SELF-DEFENSE load. Why you bring up bears is beyond me, since neither the OP or me addressed that issue in the first place (and just so you know, the above post is not meant to address a bear issue either).

I do hope that you will be able to provide the names of the 9mm that are at least equal to, or exceeds ft/lbs in the upper 500 range, as I would really like to know which ones you were talking about when you stated that a .357 snubby would only equal one, if even that. I will most likely purchase any 9mm that can best, or at least equal the 575-580ft/lbs area, so I wait with bated breath to see which 9mm loads you were thinking of.

PhilR.

p.s. yes, I know longer barrels mean higher velocities. However, 580ft/lbs makes a pretty good self-defense load (a lot of people carry a lot less), and you can get that out of a shorter and more easily carried/concealed handgun.

Disregarding the "short barrel load" and just looking at the standard .357 loads out of a short 3" barrel, I get the following energy numbers:

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN @ 1302 fps = 678 fpe
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC @ 1299 fps = 637 fpe
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core @ 1398 fps = 686 fpe (!!)
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core @ 1476 fps = 605 fpe


The best speed the 9mm 147 gr +P+ you cited achieved was 1179, in the Browning P35. This is good for only 454 ft lbs.

The 9mm load cited is only 75% as powerful as the least powerful .357 load cited, and only 66% as powerful as the most powerful .357 load.

This seems like a pretty substantial difference to me. TOF, you don't consider those energy differences meaningful, and think a .357 out of a short barrel is only as powerful as a 9mm?

Granted, the test gun is a 3" instead of a 2.5", but that isn't going to make up differences of over 150 fpe. Not even close.

As usual opinions on the internet are worth what you pay for them.

Look at any series of posts and you will find differing opinions. In this case my opinion was based on tests I performed. Some one else can run the test and get different results.

I indicated a few posts back I accept Phil's numbers. If that isn't good enough then lash me with a wet noodle.

In a Woods Gun scenario I always consider a bear as did Baldy and Tony before me.

Enjoy

What is being overlooked here is that the .357 round starts out with a 158 gr. lead bullet, 175~180grs. in many handloads.

I prefer heavy bullets, 300gr in .44, 350gr. in .45 Colt.

Weight gets to the innards.

Bob Wright