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  1. #21
    PanaDP's Avatar
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    When you compare the recoil of guns, you can't just do it on weight and bullet energy. You much take into account action as well. A semi-auto uses bullet energy to cycle the slide to eject the brass and reload the next round. Fighting those springs and moving the slide, brass, and new cartridge takes energy and thus reduces recoil energy.

  2. #22
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    mccoy: Although I have a preference for semi-autos, I also enjoy revolvers very much. The problem in doing a comparison is that there are so many to choose from on either side. I haven't noticed that one type has a greater accuracy than the other, but I have noticed that people are often a better "fit" for one or the other. I shoot the same going between the Glock G30 (.45) and the Ruger GP100 (in .357) and I love them both.

    Regarding the need for firepower, I can only say that it is better to have and not need than to need and not have. It's not that things are so tough out here (I stand an excellent chance of reaching the end of my life without ever needing a firearm) but most Americans approach the idea of self-defense from a strategic and tactical point of view. Semi-autos offer more rounds and a much quicker reload; and the polymer frames are much lighter. These are advantages although they don't in any way render the revolver obsolete.

    I am a semi-auto man. But I will defend any law-abiding citizen who favors the revolver because we are more alike than different. Keep shooting, friend!

    Io un soldato paracadutista del Americano. Io habito in Vicenza per due e mezzo anni. That's about all the Italian I remember!

  3. #23
    Mike Barham's Avatar
    Mike Barham is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by babs View Post
    ... Including your M9 Beretta with open slide?

    Just wondering from the horse's mouth as an instructor at my local range was badmouthing the Beretta 92's in harsh middle-east and/or desert field environments. I'd love to tell him I'm told otherwise from someone that's there. Assuming the M9 and the 92SF are pretty much the same animal of course.
    Same gun. The M9 is superbly reliable in all conditions, including dust/sand, as long as the low-bidder Checkmate magazines are religiously avoided. You can tell the goofball instructor I said so.

    The M9 is far from perfect, being way too big for a 9mm, having a crummy trigger, and using a backwards safety. But it is extremely reliable. I have never talked to anyone here, or the dozens of Iraq vets I personally know, who has complained about the M9's reliability.
    Employed by Galco Gunleather - www.galcogunleather.com / Veteran OEF VIII

    Donate to the Christian and Stephanie Nielson Recovery fund: http://www.nierecovery.com/.

    All opinions, particularly those involving politics and Glocks, are mine and not Galco's.

  4. #24
    babs's Avatar
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    Thanks Mike. I've not had the pleasure, but I'd bet with all that metal in such a full-size gun, 9mm's feel like plinking though with that pistol.

    Anyway.. sorry no more thread hijacking by me.. back to the whole wheel-guns vs autos business.

  5. #25
    mccoy's Avatar
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    Boyz' I got some feedback...

    First and foremost, I'm happy there is one authoritative voice supporting my statement: shipwreck found the P99 in .40 lousy as well. +1 for my sensitivity as a gunslinger, although a novice one (but folks, I warned you, in my previous life I sure was a hot one...). And, as a matter of fact, I remember many years ago shooting one Beretta, one Walther, one Sigsasuer (metal) all in 9mm and they weren't so wild.
    Next time around, I'll promise you, I'm going and try a tamer 9mm specimen. And let you know.

    stormbringerr: sig 229: OK thanks for the advise I'll see if I can get me hands upon one...

    Snowman: a dedicated post later on for your answer, I agree with your derivative equation, but I think we should examine closely conservation of moment...

    baldy: you sure right, we guys are nuts to insist on the math, a little bit of professional distortion here...

    jeffward: recoil might be defined differently, I found the wiki definitions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil) may be satisfactory for all.
    Thumbs up on the bore axis-centerline and hand-grip distance. You're speaking about torque and that's pretty clear, even though I previously ignored the difference in torque betwween revolvers and pistols.
    The revolver "kicks". The 1911 "pushes". Great illustration! Loved that!

    Terryp: yeah, it is sensible, the military use the rifle a lot, the pistol never. Unless as you sayin, they're deep in sh...oot!

    TOF: I'm blessed! another supporting voice!!
    I sure took you seriously, your 'city' might have been the bronx or 'The Valley' in LA.

    Mike: Didn't know S. Phoenix was that bad. Safety: I got your drift, I've been studying the American slang in the past, though I'd need an update now. . Lesser safety, except human error, may be related to not knowing wether a round is in the barrel... or not???
    Accuracy: from 9mm / 38sp up, of course. OK, I'll have a look at the range, in one year I'll let you know wether semiautos men shoot as a whole better than revolver men. My first impression wasn't so hot on the semiautos...Carrying: pls. note I'm not criticizing you guys for carrying, mine is just envy..
    Reliability: deserves another thread, going do some research before...Some berettas misfires here had dramatic (or fortunate)consequences. .40 poly recoil: see next answe

    shipwreck: as said, that mule (p99 .40 poly) kicks bad, may be it's the specific project which did not come out too well...Mike says his glock is all right and I believe him. Well, apparently I blamed all semiautos on one faulty design... I'm chastised... But I'll try more and let you know¨

    PanaDP: yes, more aspects to be factored into the equation..

    3/325: hope your stay in Italy was pleasant enough. I understood your Italian all right. It's great to have you guys around, makes me feel safer. The American army is doing a great job of keeping the world a safer place, I'm happy Italy is giving her small contribution. Until the politicians will allow that.
    Ciao amico, piacere averti conosciuto!!!

  6. #26
    babs's Avatar
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    I would suggest a good hard hour at the range with a .454 casull... If the walls of the range can handle the percussion from the sheer magnitude of the explosion of those rounds. Might need an outdoor range, and you might get the "Dirty Harry" nickname for a while.. but.. Then any semi-auto .45 acp on down will feel like your plinking .22's.

  7. #27
    TOF's Avatar
    TOF
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    After seeing Mikes comment regarding South Phoenix, I have to chime back in.

    I was raised in South Phoenix in the 40's and early 50's when it was still farm/dairy country. I walked all over the place day or night with no fear of any kind except the neighbors Brahama Bull might get loose. I would walk the 8 miles from home to downtown Phoenix to see a movie and then back after hours. Never 1 problem.

    Fast Forward to 2008: If I had a dire need such as a child or grandchild stuck down there by some misfortunate circumstance, I would have my M&P40 on one side my GP-100 on the other and a shotgun to my right with extra rounds. I would also attempt to get a friend to ride shotgun with another shotgun.

    In that situation mccoy, I would truly feel undergunned with only a 6 shot revolver.

    This is not to imply that all residents of South Phoenix are evil but enough are to make me not want to visit my childhood neighborhood.


  8. #28
    Bob Wright's Avatar
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    One of the most famous debates in history occurred betwen Col. Charles Askins and Bill Jordan, appearing as a series of articles in one of the gun magazine. Col. Askins started it off with an article entitled "Sixguns Are Clunks!" Bill Jordan countered with an article entitle "Come Now, Charlie!"
    The series delighted the readers and sold magazines.

    I've shot both autoloaders and sixguns. I love the single action Ruger and Colts. In the field trails of 1900, the U.S. Army ran all contestants through every conceivable test, finally selecting (in 1911) the Colt Government Model, more or less. In my opinion, that pistol has not been surpassed as a combat weapon. Bear in mind, the Army's combat weapon is the Infantry rifle, not a pistol.

    The pistol offers the advantages already stated, power, accuracy, speed of reloading, easier follow-up shots, ruggedness, etc. And, even the auto loader can be a beautiful gun, blued, engraved, ivory grips, etc.

    The revolver, on the other hand offers the ability to digest a greater range of ammunition power levels, from pipsqueak loads to fire snorting magnum levels, without a hitch in functioning. Also, for long range shooting, the revolver offers more power for flatter shooting loads. And, for the handloader, the empty brass is dropped into the palm of the hand. Auto loaders throw the empties all over God's Kingdom.

    I enjoy the post hewre of those M1911s uncovered by correspondents here who stumble upon guns of some historic value. These can by no means be considered ugly.

    People have often asked me what I have against golf, or blackpowder, or archery. My reply is that I have nothing against these pursuits, I just don't want to devote the time away from my present shooting disicipline to take up any of these. So it is with the pistol to me.

    Bob Wright

  9. #29
    Don357's Avatar
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    Hey Mccoy,
    You live in the place where one of the most accurate auto's is made, that being the Tanfoglio. They make a series of pistols called "Force" (which is similar to the CZ pistols) that is extremely accurate and even used in competition, and they even make a 1911 which we can't even get here in the US. They also make a series especially designed for competition. Try a Tanfoglio (or Witness as they're called here in the US), I think you'll like it. I have a polymer compact in .45acp and I do.

    P.S. If you want to send me one of those Tanfoglio 1911's, I'll let you. LOL

  10. #30
    mccoy's Avatar
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    Don,
    I'm happy tanfoglio semiautos are appreciated in the sophisticated American market. I heard someone state they are far better than berettas, at least accuracy-wise.
    Your post made me curious, I went and collect some data. In the recent IDPA European championships 50% of the Italian contestants shot a Tanfoglio (mostly limited series and P21L). The witness 1911 model here sells at 668 Euro-dollars (about 140 cents to the US$).
    OK, next saturday at the range I'll try one.
    I heard some guys complain the percussor gave troubles. What I believe is the best production is exported, the crappy..ahem, the faulty stocks are left for the domestic market. Happens all the time here in Italy!!

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