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  1. #1
    PZ019 is offline Junior Member
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    Sharpshooter/sniper gun?

    G'day to you all

    (First of all: I wrote 'sharpshooter/sniper' because its either one of both that I mean. Among the connoisseurs there seems to be a clear understanding about the difference between the two. I lack such understanding so in my ignorance I just refer to it as 'sharpshooter/sniper', with it meaning: 'a serious rifle for long distance shooting ).

    My situation is this: both my wife and I have been a member of a sports shooting club. One year has passed, and so we are now allowed to legally buy our own guns.

    It has become clear not only to my wife and I but also to the others members of the club that my wife has a talent for shooting long distance with rifles (she has no interest in hand guns, as opposed to me). In the year that she has been shooting (.22), she has consistently been hitting 8,9 and 10 on a distance of 25-50 meters, all this while holding the rifle in her hand (so the rifle not being supported by some helping tool or something).

    That being said, after one year of shooting with .22 she wants to 'move up': both in distance and in caliber. For now, her next step would be 100 meters, but I already know after that she wants to move on to 200 meters, 300 meters, and so on until even up to 1 kilometer. To my 'noobish' understanding this means she would need something more professional, like army snipers / sharp shooters use.

    Now, for noobs like we are, there is an overwhelming number of brands and types of guns. I understand that in the end she will have to pick the rifle that she likes most, in terms of comfort, but: if somebody could 'kick us into the right direction' in terms of 'forget about looking at these brands/types of rifles, what you are looking for you will find in this corner, namely the following brands/types of rifles'.

    This would mean a big help in terms of efficiency

    Thank you in advance for any replies,

    Bye,

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  3. #2
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    It depends...
    What discipline will she be participating in? Is it a competition type environment? For a more casual type shooting opinions will vary wildly.

    For a competition rifle, I recommend talking to other competitors and find out what the options are within the rules, and what they are having good results with.
    For basic recreational, accurate long range shooting, I would recommend a high quality bolt action in a readily available caliber such as .308 or 30-06 for intermediate ranges.
    Out to 1000 meters is another matter. While the .308 & 30-06 will work at long range, I'm sure there are superior choices. For serious work at the longer ranges, you will likely need to consider reloading. With any luck, other members will have better, more detailed advice.
    I hesitate to recommend a specific rifle because opinions are so varied.

  4. #3
    EliWolfe is offline Member HGF Gold Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overkill0084 View Post
    It depends...
    With any luck, other members will have better, more detailed advice.
    I hesitate to recommend a specific rifle because opinions are so varied.
    Roger that,
    My completely uninformed opinion is that if a soft shooting .270 won't cut it, I can't shoot that far! Good luck and happy shooting. Someone here will have a REAL good post for you, so keep checking back.
    Eli

  5. #4
    PZ019 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overkill0084 View Post
    It depends...
    What discipline will she be participating in? Is it a competition type environment? For a more casual type shooting opinions will vary wildly.

    For a competition rifle, I recommend talking to other competitors and find out what the options are within the rules, and what they are having good results with.
    For basic recreational, accurate long range shooting, I would recommend a high quality bolt action in a readily available caliber such as .308 or 30-06 for intermediate ranges.
    Out to 1000 meters is another matter. While the .308 & 30-06 will work at long range, I'm sure there are superior choices. For serious work at the longer ranges, you will likely need to consider reloading. With any luck, other members will have better, more detailed advice.
    I hesitate to recommend a specific rifle because opinions are so varied.
    Thank you for your reply. It would be for as your write it "basic recreational, accurate long range shooting".

    As per your suggestion, let's hope then that somebody could shed some more light on the best choice for longer ranges (> 1000 meters).

    What do you mean with 'reloading'? Bullets?

    Bye,

  6. #5
    PZ019 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliWolfe View Post
    Roger that,
    My completely uninformed opinion is that if a soft shooting .270 won't cut it, I can't shoot that far! Good luck and happy shooting. Someone here will have a REAL good post for you, so keep checking back.
    Eli
    Thank you

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by PZ019 View Post
    Thank you for your reply. It would be for as your write it "basic recreational, accurate long range shooting".

    As per your suggestion, let's hope then that somebody could shed some more light on the best choice for longer ranges (> 1000 meters).

    What do you mean with 'reloading'? Bullets?

    Bye,
    Factory ammo is pretty good considering. Most ammo shoots pretty well considering that they can't know all of the variables for the millions of rifles out there. Reloading one's ammo does a couple things:
    First it saves a bunch of money. Decent ammo for centerfire rifles isn't cheap, match grade ammo even less so.
    Second it allows a shooter to custom tailor a load to the particular firearm. Factory ammo is a compromise, and for the most part, they do a surprisingly good job with it. Reloading your ammo allows you to experiment with various components for best accuracy i.e. powder, bullet, seating depth, & so forth.
    Reloading is sort of jumping into the deep end of the pool as far as the firearms hobby is concerned. If you decide to look into it, consider purchasing a book on the subject, I understand that "The ABC's of Reloading" is a good introduction to the subject. Talk to people in your club and get their insights as well.

  8. #7
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is online now Senior Member
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    Shooting to 1,000 meters (or yards) is a very specialized sort of recreation. It takes innate skill and lots of practice, not to mention specialized (and expensive) equipment. Even the targets are specialized and uncommon. (Do you have access to 1,000 meter targets?)
    Most recreational rifle shooting stops at 500 or 600 meters (or yards). Shooting at 300 meters (yes, or yards) is quite difficult enough.
    My personal experience is limited to .30-'06 and .308 Winchester, both of which are barely adequate for precise 1,000-meter shooting, but with which I have had some modest success. I understand that there are a couple of 30-caliber, "Magnum" cartridges which are more commonly used, but I have no experience with any of that.
    I suggest something a little different: Let your wife try medium-range "position" shooting. That is, shooting from unsupported offhand at 100 and 200 meters, kneeling at 300, sitting at 300 or 400, and prone at 500 or 600. Believe me, that will present her with quite a challenge, yet it requires no particularly specialized equipment, and an ordinary hunting rifle, or even an ex-military rifle, will do the job. (I suggest that the rifle be a bolt action, not a semi-automatic, and that it be equipped with a good shooting sling.)
    Maybe also see how she can do in the "Lord Roberts Match" course. Using an ex-military, .303 bolt action, one assumes prone and fires as many accurate shots as possible, reloading the magazine as necessary, all in one minute, at 300 meters. Score the hits numerically and keep a record. Task her with improving her score, each time she runs the match. (It isn't easy.)

    Let me know what you think.

  9. #8
    PZ019 is offline Junior Member
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    Good day to you all

    First of all, my apologies for not responding sooner; the holidays and such. I wish you all the best wishes for 2011 and the years to come, and would once again like to thank you all for so helpfully making suggestions.

    My temporary absence did not mean I didn't do anything at all; I am working on it, and I have grouped and sorted all the replies I've gotten. This is not to say that by grouping this everything is clear now () but I will post here what I have sofar, if only so you see that what seems obvious to you all is rather overwhelming to me :eek: Some very kind members in my shooting club have offered to bring a shipload full of weapons to the stand so my wife can shoot with them. I will show these members all your inputs, and I will try compile the final verdicts of you all experts from it

    From reading all the replies it seems criteria should be:
    - Reliability
    - Wind
    - "Barrel burner"
    - Recoil
    - Cost of ammunition

    Would you be adding other criteria to this list?

    Finally (for now), I was thinking perhaps a Steyr Scout would be a nice gun for her? Or too heavy (or expensive, as in: there are other guns that can do the same for far less money?) I found some links:

    Steyr Scout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Steyr Scout Jeff Cooper Commemorative Edition | The Firearm Blog

    Thanks again for all your help; it is appreciated

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Leaving out of consideration the really old weapons (WW-I, WW-II) because I think my wife would want a new gun instead of a 'used one' (unless you all say that would be a mistake on her part), this is what I have sofar.

    6mmBR (Long distance shooters in the U.S. are using 6 mm rifles for really long distance shooting;

    6.5 Grendel. Some people have gone over to the 6.5 Grendel for shots that range from zero to 1,200 meters, research the 6.5 Grendel from Alexander Arms if I were you. That seems to be the upcoming rifle system and caliber of ammo to use for really good long range shooting. OK, The 6.5x55 has soooo many advantages over the 6.5 Grendel. **** the 6.5x.284 beats it hands down)

    6.5 x 55 (6.5 Swedish Mauser), made by Sauer, Blaser CZ, Steyr, Mauser and Tikka (and probably by others). Moderate recoil (but more than a .22) and excellent accuracy. OK, The 6.5x55 has soooo many advantages over the 6.5 Grendel. **** the 6.5x.284 beats it hands down -- super accurate rounds and easy on the shoulder.

    .17HMR the .17HMR is a low recoil, inexpensive round that you can use out to 200 yards. Great for target shooting at the club. An example of a rifle of this type. A Ruger Model 77/17.--I also recommend a .17 hmr. It has less recoil than a .22, but WAY more power and accuracy so it is accurate at much greater distances. If you go with a .17 for the next step, you will see how much talent she really has. If she is nailing quarters at 200 yards with it, then you can start thinking about a .223 or .308 for 3-400 yards or more.

    6.5x47 Lapua and 6.5 Creedmoor.

    .308/7.62 NATO (7.62 Nato (.308 Win)) (high quality M-1A rifles and AR-10 rifles). NATO is good for longer ranges without the short barrel life issue of the .243 Win. -- .308 (7.62X51) would be a great round. I would suggest the Remington model 700 line for accurate rifles. Specifically the tactical version. The gun has a tendancy to shoot extremely accurate and can reach out to 1000 meters with the right optics. It is a standard NATO round so it should be available to you in Europe. Many people that shoot 1000 yard competitions use this round and the US marine snipers have been using it for years.--I also feel the recoil of a 308 would be a bit much for most women just starting out in center fire. My 14 year old granddaughter weighs about 120 pounds and her 243 shooting 85 grain bullets, with a LimbSaver pad on the back has put tears in her eyes once when she didn't have it in her shoulder just right. Her prefer rifle is her 260 but with the 22 oz target scope, the weight of the rifle it self, recoil pad and a muzzle break, it kicks less than the 222 I started her on. --For basic recreational, accurate long range shooting, I would recommend a high quality bolt action in a readily available caliber such as .308 or 30-06 for intermediate ranges. --R700 in .308 would be another good choice. --http://cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-550-varmint/ This rifle is VERY accurate. In .308, it will handle targets out to 1000M. no problem.--308 and .300wsm may have far too much recoil for someone whose experience has been limited to .22LR...I would look at .223 for a long-term solution, as it's generally accepted to be good out to 600m or so.

    30-06
    For basic recreational, accurate long range shooting, I would recommend a high quality bolt action in a readily available caliber such as .308 or 30-06 for intermediate ranges.

    .243 Win (Yeah I know it's a barrel burner but a very fast FPS muzzel velocity round with relitively low recoil). The .243 Win. is much better for longer ranges however than the .308 Win (And they're both (.308 and .243) are short actions which for competitive timed target events is a given edge IMO. )
    Also the .308 Win. or 7.62X51mm (And they're both (.308 and .243) are short actions which for competitive timed target events is a given edge IMO. )

    .223 I didn't hear any mention of a .223 in either bolt action or AR style platform. With a slower twist barrel andd heavier weight bullets you can get pretty good accuracy at 500 meters and the recoil won't beat up her shoulder. Yeah a 223 would get out there pretty well. It's a pretty flat flier too. And decent target ammo is not all that expensive and that can be an issue with some other rounds. A 223 makes a very nice target round and has almost no recoil but wind is going to push it around a whole lot more. For mild recoil and volume of shooting a fast twist 223 is hard to beat. Sierra as well as others makes an aray of heavy for caliber high BC bullets for the 223. -- I would go with a .223 for strictly range / target shooting. Low recoil, cheapest centerfire ammo around, accurate beyond any distance most of us will shoot, etc..-- Unless you are building a custom I would steer clear of the .223's. Not the best choice IMO for long range shooting. Like said before something in the 6.5mm range might be best, and unless you want to spend money building a custom rifle, Savage has a line of "out of the box" target rifles made especially for what you are talking about.--Granted the .223 is not best for the 600 meter and beyond category, that would still be my choice for a woman who has not moved beyond .22 rimfires as of yet. Moving from a .22 to a .308 or even a .243 is a pretty big jump for a beginner. A .223 offers recoil as low as you will find for a centerfire and accuracy well out to 200, 300 meters and beyond. --One good beginner sharpshooting rifle would be a .223. Very light recoil and accurate. From there, it is easy to move up the .308 or .30-06.


    .204 Ruger: Don't look past the smaller calibers. The .204 Ruger is extremely flat shooting, but the ligher bullets are bothered by windage more than gravity.

    260 Remington. My number one choice in calibers would be the 260 Rem. super accurate rounds and easy on the shoulder. -- I also feel the recoil of a 308 would be a bit much for most women just starting out in center fire. My 14 year old granddaughter weighs about 120 pounds and her 243 shooting 85 grain bullets, with a LimbSaver pad on the back has put tears in her eyes once when she didn't have it in her shoulder just right. Her prefer rifle is her 260 but with the 22 oz target scope, the weight of the rifle it self, recoil pad and a muzzle break, it kicks less than the 222 I started her on --
    For mild recoil,i would choose a 260 or 7/08 and then maybe look at a 6.5/06,284. these are my personal likes.i would be happy with savage,ruger,marlin or a sako at the dear end of scale for commercial rifles.

    M40. I shoot In long range rifle competitions and before i got into the world of custom long range rifles I started off with a tactical rifles.net m40 rifle in .300 wsm and it is a great gun for ranges all the way up to 1000yds its a lil expensive but well worth it.

    .300 Winmags. A great thing to see is what the military uses. .300 WinMags can easily drill a target at 1100 yards.

    My hyper accurate rifle is a SSG 04. They are produced in Germany and make many types of rifles in many calibers. Mine is chamberd in .308 and I can hit Targets with out a problem out to 500 yards. The gun is more then capable of shooting her thats just the range I have available to shoot at. Google Steyr Manlicher. This rifle is by far the most accurate rifle I have ever owned.

    Interesting remarks to keep:

    Tikka, Savage (If you can get Savage rifles where you're at, one of those will probably be your least costly option and, at the same time, most likely to deliver out-of-the-box accuracy) and Remington. If target shooting is your main objective the get one with a Varmint or Tactical barrel. Be sure it has an adjustable trigger ( Most all over the counter rifles are going to have a 3 1/2 - 4 pound trigger pull and that's a little heavy for target shooting, you need to drop it to 2 - 2 1/2 pounds).

    Remington 700 actions (That crown used to belong to the Remington M700, but their quality has slipped in the last 10-15 years). I think she should start with either a Remington 700 or a higher end Savage with accu-trigger.

    Sako 85 Classic or Hunter, which is available in both 260 Remington and 6.5x55

    As others have said, cartridges with 6.5mm bullets are common in long range shooting and they generally have the advantages of high BC bullets and relatively mild recoil. 6.5x55SE, .260 Remington, 6.5x47, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 6.5x284 are all good examples.

    If you really want to be competitive at 1000m, though, you'll probably be either doing a fair amount of custom work to such a rifle or buying a custom rifle (read: as with most things... costs more money).

    for mild recoil,i would choose a 260 or 7/08 and then maybe look at a 6.5/06,284. these are my personal likes.i would be happy with savage,ruger,marlin or a sako at the dear end of scale for commercial rifles


    One of your questions was about the difference between "sniper" and "sharp shooter" rifles. The primary difference will be weight. Military snipers are concerned to a certain extent about the weight of their rifles since they have to carry them in the field, police snipers have this concern as well but to a lesser extent since they typically don't travel as far to a shooting position and also demand more accuracy from their shots. This pushes the sniper toward achieving acceptable accuracy in the lightest possible package. The bench-rest/target crowd is less concerned with weight so you are more likely to see very heavy contoured barrels and weighted stocks on target rifles than on true sniper guns. Most of the other differences are going to be cosmetic until you get to the optics. Snipers usually seek out optics with reticles that can be used for ranging using mil dots or some other substantion marked on the reticle. Target optics often use a simple fine crosshair since they are intended to be used primarily at known distances. At any rate don't neglect to consider purchasing a very high quality optical system for your target rifle. there are many brands to consider and even some that can be had at a considerable value. Vortex optics being my top pick for value. I won't go into too much detail on that topic because it really could become a whole other thread and I'm sure these gents have a host of opinions on the matter.

    Factory ammo is pretty good considering. Most ammo shoots pretty well considering that they can't know all of the variables for the millions of rifles out there. Reloading one's ammo does a couple things:
    First it saves a bunch of money. Decent ammo for centerfire rifles isn't cheap, match grade ammo even less so.
    Second it allows a shooter to custom tailor a load to the particular firearm. Factory ammo is a compromise, and for the most part, they do a surprisingly good job with it. Reloading your ammo allows you to experiment with various components for best accuracy i.e. powder, bullet, seating depth, & so forth.
    Reloading is sort of jumping into the deep end of the pool as far as the firearms hobby is concerned. If you decide to look into it, consider purchasing a book on the subject, I understand that "The ABC's of Reloading" is a good introduction to the subject. Talk to people in your club and get their insights as well.

    I suggest something a little different: Let your wife try medium-range "position" shooting. That is, shooting from unsupported offhand at 100 and 200 meters, kneeling at 300, sitting at 300 or 400, and prone at 500 or 600. Believe me, that will present her with quite a challenge, yet it requires no particularly specialized equipment, and an ordinary hunting rifle, or even an ex-military rifle, will do the job. (I suggest that the rifle be a bolt action, not a semi-automatic, and that it be equipped with a good shooting sling.)
    Maybe also see how she can do in the "Lord Roberts Match" course. Using an ex-military, .303 bolt action, one assumes prone and fires as many accurate shots as possible, reloading the magazine as necessary, all in one minute, at 300 meters. Score the hits numerically and keep a record. Task her with improving her score, each time she runs the match. (It isn't easy.)


    Lesser caliber is probably best, but get the thicker barrel, usually called "Bull-Barrel."
    Forget the highly accessorized "tacticool" models or the bells and whistles - for a serious target shooter, most of that stuff is useless trash. If she shows talent and interest after a couple more years, you can decide to go for a truly expensive purpose built target piece, after she has done enough shooting to know what her preferences are.
    When it comes to glass, you can hardly spend enough, but there are a plethora of choices in optics and sights. That's the area of accessories that serious target shooters spend a lot of time and money on.


    Going from a 22 lr to a 300 winchester magnum ,is ,IMO,risky. If your wife is a small person. The recoil of a magnum can be intimidating,even with a muzzle brake ,the blast can be severe. Starting her out with a smaller caliber centerfire,like a .222 or .223 in a lighter weight sporter class rifle ,or .260 Rem ,7mm08 in a medium weight rifle would help in determining her ability to adjust to recoil and still be able to hit accurately at 100-300+ yards/meters.
    +1 on Remington and Savage rifles --I totally agree with this. Going from a .22 to a large caliber rifle is not the best idea. Especially since the shooter in question has only shot at 50 yards with a .22. I also recommend a .17 hmr. It has less recoil than a .22, but WAY more power and accuracy so it is accurate at much greater distances. If you go with a .17 for the next step, you will see how much talent she really has. If she is nailing quarters at 200 yards with it, then you can start thinking about a .223 or .308 for 3-400 yards or more. As an example, I dont find myself particularly "skilled" in shooting, but I am better than average and always getting better. With my savage .17hmr (which is my favorite gun out of many) I am able to consistantly hit asprin tablets at 75 yards. Almost every time. Go out to 200 yards and I hit golfballs sometimes, and clay birdies every time. Another reason why you should look into this gun, is cost. Its is WAY cheaper than any .223 or .308, which means much more shooting and practice for the cost.
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  10. #9
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is online now Senior Member
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    The Steyr Scout is a lightweight, general-purpose rifle. It's a nice solution to a complicated problem, but it's not really a long-range rifle, and it is unsuited to formal rifle competition. It was designed for hunting and self-protection.
    There is no need to pay extra for the Cooper commemorative edition, I think, unless it is delivered with useful features unavailable otherwise.

    Although everybody wants a brand new gun, a clean, gently used, "previously owned" rifle will deliver more performance for less money. This is particularly true in specialized competition guns. However, you must have the used rifle carefully inspected by a competent riflesmith, before you buy it.

    I believe that the 6mmBR cartridge is used in very specialized benchrest competition, and it may be unsuited to NRA-style rifle shooting. I am not sure that you can buy this cartridge, and, instead, will have to hand-load all that she shoots.

    With very good coaching, your wife could transition from .22 LR directly to .308 or .30-'06. It all depends upon the teacher, and lots of preliminary dry-fire practice. She will have to be physically and emotionally prepared ahead of time, and her technique must be carefully monitored to eliminate any sloppiness (which will cause recoil pain).

    A good intermediate gun might be a bolt-action .223, such as those made by CZ. Buying yet another rifle is an expensive way of conditioning her, but it might be the most effective means of transition.

  11. #10
    cooper623 is offline Junior Member
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    long range gun

    as has been mentioned above there are many choices in caliber and the right choice is a compromise between what your wife is comfortable shooting recoil wise, how much you are willing to spend on ammo (or if you are going to reload) I would say that for your purposes and because of the fact that you are just getting into it, i would go with a remington 700 in .308. Remington 700 rifles are fairly cheap and can be purchased with a bull barrel which is just a thicker barrel which is stiffer and takes longer to heat up which is more ideal for precision shooting. Out of the box Remington 700s are really good and easily shoot about 1 MOA. However, there are also many upgrades out there so that you can slowly turn your Remington 700 rifle into a top of the line precision rifle. As for the cartridge, i would suggest .308 because it is relatively cheap, is capable to 1000 yard or meters, and has a very mild recoil. Finally, when doing long range precision shooting, the scope is a very important part of the equation. Glass can be very expensive but high quality glass does pay off. If you only intend on doing shooting at known distances you dont need things like mil reticles (even though they are awesome) or tactical turrets. A great scope to get into the sport with is the redfield revolution. They sell for about $200 but have decent glass (actually made by leupold who is very high quality and mentioned later in the post) and are a great value. If you are looking to spend more money then i would say go up to something like the zeiss conquest which can be anywhere from $350 to $800 depending on the configuration that you want. Also, the Higher end Nikons like the monarch are from $600-$1000 depending on features and are very good for the money. If you are looking for a tactical scope then i would strongly suggest looking at a vortex viper pst. They are very new on the market but are a great value. In fact, i have one of these scopes on order right now. They range from $700-$900 and include good glass, illuminated reticle, tactical tall uncapped turrets, MIL or MOA reticles to allow for ranging with the reticle, and have matching turrets (meaning that if the reticle is in MIL then the turrets are MIL and MOA with MOA and is very ideal for easy corrections). It also comes in many different configurations with different magnification ranges and objectives. ALso, with these scopes you can get FFP (first focal plane) or SFP (second Focal Plane). First focal plane means that the reticle grows and shrinks with the magnification so that the reticle is always in proportion with the target. This allows you to used the ranging and easy correction abilities at any magnification. On the other hand, second focal plane usually is correct only at max magnification but can be used at half, quarter, etc....with some simply math. Other good scopes in this price range are leupolds which come in many different configurations to suit almost all needs and are generally very high quality. If you are really looking to go all out with a top of the line scope then good brands to consider are Nightforce, U.S. Optics, Schmidt & Bender, Premier, higher end Zeiss scopes, Swarovski (I personally dont think that swaros are anything special or worth the money but many like them), and there are many out there but way too many to list in a post. However, keep in mind that the absolute top of the line scopes START at 1500 and there are many great scopes out there at lower price points. Dont feel like you have to spend that on a scope to get a good one. Hope this was helpful, and have fun with the long range shooting.

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