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  1. #1
    gmaske's Avatar
    gmaske is offline Senior Member
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    Low Budget Black Rifle

    I was kicking around the idea of picking up a surplus type rifle to build a low budget Black Rifle. There is some Russian and other stuff floating around out there and I was wondering what would be the best choice. Ammo availability, reloadability, and price are all important here. My Brother inlaw picked up a Russian 7.62 x 39 that I put an aftermarket stock on for him. It was pretty cool to shoot. I don't have a lot of learning on this subject so any info would be great!

  2. #2
    DevilsJohnson is offline Senior Member
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    I have a Yugo AK Underfolder (M-70)


    You can still get Romanian AK's pretty cheap but the furniture isn't the best on those so you might want to change to at the least refinish it. The WASR's have a milled receiver and a lot of the AK snobs don't like them but they work very well. SuckLead has one if I remember. I'm sure she can say how well or not they work. I did have one and really want another one.

    If you can find a good SKS they are not too bad either. I have a D Type Chinese that I put a Tapco stock on that I live to shoot. I had redone the original stock but thought I'd update it . I like the D Types because they use AK mags so you are not bogged with the box mag many have or the high cap SKS mags. I like being able to use the same mags with my AK and my SKS.

    Since this pic was taken I have changed the scope out to a holo site that I got in another trade.

    There are all kinds of different rifles that are not too pricey. I thought I'd show you two I have. he SKS I got for 300.00. A little high for an SKS maybe but after seeing what they sell for ion other places I come in pretty cheap.

    There are the double Star AR's too. Most of the models they make are a little cheaper than some of the high end models but they are really nice rifles. The people that started Double Star worked for some of the big guys in the AR market. They went to making their own I can't remember exactly when. It seems they got in just before the 1st ban. Many people building their own AR will start with a DS receiver. I have a Star-15 Rifle. It's nothing fancy but it's more accurate than I thought it would be. And was a lot cheaper than many others. Here it is.


    There are many others but I thought this might help you a little and I do love showing them off anyway

  3. #3
    dondavis3's Avatar
    dondavis3 is offline Senior Member
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    +1 DevilsJohnson great pictures - these made me get off my rear & learn how to post pictures.


    Oh boy your in trouble now - someone taught me how to post picture

    Here's my AR 15:




    Last edited by dondavis3; 10-22-2009 at 08:28 AM.

  4. #4
    Todd is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilsJohnson View Post
    What concerns me are the bottles of "Climax" on top of the bucket.

  5. #5
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    I think its water, but I noticed that too.

    havin some problems there, buddy?!

  6. #6
    gmaske's Avatar
    gmaske is offline Senior Member
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    Devils,
    I'm not out to impress anyone. Just looking for a fun and reliable rifle. I like both of yours with a leaning towards the SKS. Like I said before, I'm not up on this stuff so save me the search and tell me what they shoot. There is a Gun Show coming up in Denver the middle of October and if I can scrape some cash up I might go looking.

  7. #7
    gmaske's Avatar
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    Ok, so I figured out that 7.62x39 Russian is the standard. So what else can you guys tell me?

  8. #8
    gmaske's Avatar
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    So I'm going to look at one Saturday. It is a Russian made SKS with an after market folding stock. It's on consignment at a shop that is fairly local to me. Actually it is the closest real gun shop in my area that has any real stock. It about 50 miles from the house. The guy wants $389.00 for it which might be a bit high depending.... but checking the on-line guns for sale it's about right. The stock will have to go in favor of a Tapco Intrafuse. My understanding is that the Russian models were the best made of the bunch. Here's hoping the barrel ain't shot out.

  9. #9
    DevilsJohnson is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd View Post
    What concerns me are the bottles of "Climax" on top of the bucket.
    HAHAHAAHAAAA..Climax is a local spring water company. It's located in Climax Ky. The "bucket" is a cast iron dutch oven. I like to cook and sometimes it's better to use the old fashioned stuff

    gmaske The SKS shots a 7.62x39 round that is pretty cheap still. They made the SKS all over the place. I lean to the Chinese one because it does not require a special mag. Trey usually have that little box mag on the rifle but you can get higher capacity ones too. The D Type/Chinese ones will use regular AK mags which makes things easier down the road for me. They are also a little cheaper and I only need one type mags for both rifles that use the same round.

    You are going to hear all about the horrors of old commie ammo and the stuff they make not (Wolf, Brown Bear,etc.) that are steel cases and how bad they are to the weapon. That just simply isn't a factor honestly. First, the steel of the case is much softer than your rifles chamber and they are coated with a varnish. This has to jobs. First it works to preserve the case being it's steel it can rust. Second, it works like a lube being many rifles that use that round are not semi automatic. That's why so many come with chrome lined bbls. In full auto you want it to feed and that varnish works great ion that capacity. So all the people that have worn out chambers must be doing something funky to the weapon or the round. Because they were made to use that steel cased round to begin with.

    You will not get the best accuracy with the cheaper steel cased rounds but they will work good enough for more occasions. If you want to look around there are companies that make ammo that is a little more precision. But remember...These weapons were designed for military use. They are made sloppy to work..Period...So they are made more loose and the ammo they use is a little hot. All in all they make great rifles (the SKS)

    You can get after market stocks pretty easy. The one on mine will also fit the SKS with the standard magazine. There are several varieties so pick the flavor that is best for you. I liked the Tapco T6 because I like the telescoping rear like on an AR. They make them in every possible style you can imagine. Making the SKS a much more versatile weapon. Even if you don't want to change the stock but you want to put optics on one they make a replacement spring cover that will pop right on that has a rail on it. There are also hand guards with rails on them if you want to go that rout. I bought one (Spring Cover) for mine but don't use it anymore because the new stock had the rail on the hand guard

    Norinco makes the model like mine. It's the only one that I know of that uses AK mags. There were some made back when but I have not seen many the last 10 years. Norinco models are not the easiest to find but I usually see one or two at gun shows.
    .

  10. #10
    gmaske's Avatar
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    It would apear that it is pretty simple to convert to removeable mags. The Tapco mags have got the best rating on the Midway site. This could be a lot of fun!!!

  11. #11
    DevilsJohnson is offline Senior Member
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    You don't convert to a regular mag. Tapco and a few others are making an SKS mag that looks a bit different.
    Last edited by DevilsJohnson; 10-02-2009 at 10:09 PM.

  12. #12
    gmaske's Avatar
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    Well today is the big day and I'm not sure what I'm gonna do. It's just a toy I want and I've been wondering if I should spend the money or not. I'll go look anyway.....

  13. #13
    DevilsJohnson is offline Senior Member
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    Good luck!!

  14. #14
    gmaske's Avatar
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    Well I bought it...and most likely paid a bit to much. I looked at what was available on line and there were a bunch higher and a few lower in price. I coughed up $439.00 for it out the door. It came with 83 rounds of ammo and a bunch of stripper clips. (I like them stripper clips! Took to em like a duck takes to water.) Anyway it was the dirtiest gun of any kind that I've had the displeasure to clean. Nearly five hours of soak, scrub, and clean. It was so fouled that the gas piston was nearly ceased in its bore. So hear is a beauty shot after its cleaning and a trip to the range were I put 23 round down the tube. Three were just to check function and twenty were at two targets. Fifty yards, open sights, old eyes, and surplus ammo.....Not bad for a first outing. I think it is worth putting a few more bucks in to.
    Whatduya think?




  15. #15
    DevilsJohnson is offline Senior Member
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    Who made that one?

    It looks like the elevation was not set right but then again 50 yards is a chip shot with one of those. So you might have gone out another 50 and had none outside the target. A lot of people will put them (SKS) down because they've been so cheap but the dang things shoot pretty well I think. It has upwards of a 125.00 stock on it too depending who made that too.

    The dreaded black rifles are starting to go down some but they are still pretty high. You get more than the one mag? I can't remember how much those go for these days. Seems they are a little more than standard AK mags but no much.

    Wait..I"m pretty dumb..Is that the Russian you talked about in the earlier post? If so that's not all that bad a price really.
    Last edited by DevilsJohnson; 10-05-2009 at 02:13 AM.

  16. #16
    gmaske's Avatar
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    Yep it'a a Russian and it came with only the one mag. I'll be dumping the non folding....folding stock in favor of a Tapco with no rails. I'll order up a sight adjusting tool at tha same time. I think the elevation might be ok for 100 yards but i'm pretty sure it shoots a bit to the right. Could be me pulling right but only time and ammo will tell. I'm going to tap the receiver and put a scope on it as soon as funds allow too. It is fun to shoot!

  17. #17
    DevilsJohnson is offline Senior Member
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    Yeah, it's really hard to judge those things with that steel case surplus ammo. Get you a box or two of something pretty nice and check it then. The surplus stuff is pretty hot so they can get a little squirrelly sometimes.

    What Tapco stock you looking at? That one don't fold? It looks like the ones that you have to pick up the pin in the hinge to get them to fold but I can't tell 100% from the pic.

    Man...Those things are a blast to shot. They are not too high to get hold of and the ammo wont kill you usually..price wise..heh. It's powerful enough a round to reach out there a little bit and the recoil is totally manageable. I'd like to get a longer barrel model like a Dragunov. But I'll probably looking at another caliber for that.

    Can't wait to see what you do with it. I swear..That's the best part of getting those old commie guns...All the stuff you can do to them.

  18. #18
    gmaske's Avatar
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    From what I gather from what the sales guy told me the stock was sold during the ban period and is locked in the open position. He told me I could get a kit for it to make it fold again. Doesn't matter cause I don't like the looks of the stock anyway. I might see if I can find the kit if I go to sell it. I'm thinking on getting the TAPCO Intrafuse T6 Adjustable Stock in Synthetic Black. I'll leave the plain black gas tube hand gard cover that is on it now. I want to be able to use the factory sights also and a top rail on the gas tube kills that. I don't want any rails other than the scope mount. I'm looking at a Choate Scope Mount that you drill and tap the receiver to mount. For a scope I was looking at a NcStar Mark 3 Compact Tactical Rifle Scope 2-7x 32mm. I'll add a Tapco 5 and 10 round mag to it also.

    Do you know much about the original finish on this rifle. It kind of looks like some of it should be painted and some of it should be blued. I'm thinking there is a bit more paint than there should be.

    Here are a few links to my wish list items:
    http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tnumber=222544
    http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tnumber=435151
    http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tnumber=919985

  19. #19
    DevilsJohnson is offline Senior Member
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    That looks to be the same stock I have on mine but mine was called the T6 fusion. I have no idea what's different if anything. I love mine. The holo site I have on mine now is an NC star. I've had people telling me I shouldn't use it but it worked very well so I don't see why not use it. don't like how it mounts all that much but it stays put so I'm happy with it. I just can't see paying as much for optics as I did for the rifle so I looked at some less expensive things from cdnn. The one in the pic is a Target Sports scope. The reticle lights up rather red or green and has a few brightness settings. I am going to get another SKS I think and mount it on that. With the T6 stock I had that rail on the handguard and that made using a holo site a lot more attractive. I had the other one on that spring cover that I bought to replace the stock one. Got that at cdnn pretty cheap too.

    I never was a fan of those side folder stocks. I like the collapsible ones a lot more. I don't blame you for wanting to change that. I know they are sturdy and all they just don't look it and that breeds a lack of confidence. No need for that involved in using a firearm.

    Those spring cover mounts are pretty cool. Most are made so you can use the regular sites as well as the optic mounted being they make the mounts with a channel to be able to use the iron sights when you want to.

    Edit to add:
    Link to the scope mount (Link)
    Link to the scope (Link) (They have several others listed in Ar, AK, and SKS scopes.)
    Last edited by DevilsJohnson; 10-05-2009 at 07:06 PM.

  20. #20
    gmaske's Avatar
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    I chose that scope mount because I wanted a really solid mount with no chance of movement short of it bending. I wanted a variable power scope too. I like the idea of 2x to 7x rather than the standard 3x to 9x. It just makes more sense to me for this rifle. I'm trying to keep cost down to as little as possible but when it's done I want something that will bring the best out of the rifle. I'll work on fit and finish on the really cold days this winter. I was kicking around the idea of having a machinest cut an outline groove on the rear sight so I could put some paint in it for a better sight picture. I'll hit the front sight with paint also. Black on black aiming at black is hard!
    Getting back to a question I asked earlier.....The bolt and barrel are painted and I kind of think they shouldn't be. The spring/bolt cover and trigger guard look like they are factory black paint but like I said the barrel looks like it was painted later. The gas piston tube is blued but there is a spot or two with a little paint on it too. Just really small spots that look like they've been there a really long time.

    You know, looking at that second target I've got five of the ten shot in a tight group. Three touching and two touching.......that getting my expectations up really high on what this baby might just be able to do.

    Oh....I never mentioned that all the numbers match on it which was a big relief. I didn't want a parts gun.

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