I'm thinking about buying a Mosin-Nagant 91/30 as a project gun/hunting rifle. Super cheap, C&R eligible, good round for large game. Anyone on here own one? I am curious about the general accuracy for this gun... thoughts?
They have typical accuracy for military iron sights of that era. If I do my part, I can easily keep 2-inch groups at 100 yards using surplus ammunition. The characteristics of the 7.62x54R are generally equal to .30-06. It can be challenging to put a scope on one. As you noted, the rifles are very inexpensive and surplus ammunition is still a bargain.
Thanks rfawcs, I just ordered it today along with some (400 rounds) surplus ammo! Might be anywhere from a week to two before it arrives (processing of course, not shipping).
I've looked at some of the various options for mounting a scope and bending the bolt; looks like a lengthy process and might wait one season for that. Kinda excited about using the iron sites anyway...
I do plan on replacing the stock right away... Does anyone know if that ATI stock is a good buy?
Sorry, I don't know. I've had mine for some time now, and kept it mostly as it came to me. I picked up an original Russian 4X scope/mount from SARCO way back then, and had a gunsmith mount it and put a bent handle on the bolt. So, my "sniper" Mosin cost me about $300. Of course, those were pre-Obama-inflation dollars, and before all the scoped Mosins hit the market.
Hey "exercisemyright", what a coincidence ... I have been lately reading about the Mosin Nagant and thinking along the same line as you, to start with a cheap Mosin Nagant, then little by liitle, update it to a decent looking hunting rifle (change the stock, put a scope, you know the same plan as yours). The ones selling on line are between $89 - $129. However, today, I located a nice one at used gunshop store that is listed for $200. I played with it a little bit and that thing is light and I love the iron sight. The gun is well kept and the action is properly lubricated, I didn't have any promblem working the action..But my thoght is that $200 is alot, specially for the online prices.
Have you got yours, and have you tried it it. One advice I keep hearing is that the bolt action needs to be cleaned and lubricated properly..Please let me know how was your experience with the online purchase..If you are satisfied I want to do the same.
Scope Mounting Idea:
Instead of bending the bolt handle, which only partly solves the problem and still leaves you with a higher-than-necessary scope mount, use a Cooper-style "scout" scope mounted on the rifle's barrel, ahead of its receiver. (If you can't get a scout scope, a long-eye-relief pistol scope will work, if you find one with really long eye relief.)
I have had this kind of rig for a very long time on my competition Springfield, to preserve my ability to load quickly with stripper clips, and it works extremely well (all the way out to 1,000 yards). The only drawback is that you have to retrain yourself to shoot with both eyes open.
Thanks guys for the comments!
Jimmy, I haven't got it yet (expecting it in 5-7 days). Yeah, internet prices are crazy--they range anywhere from 80-200. Most of the private sales on gunbroker seem to be a little high. I ordered mine along with a buddy and with tax + shipping for both it came to $193. I think we found a good deal, but I'm still holding my breath to see the bore when it comes.
Steve, thanks for the scout recommendation. I looked into that a little but don't fully understand it. A few questions for you...
- Is there a significant/any difference between a long eye relief scope and a scout scope?
- I found one which replaces the rear site and supposedly requires no permanent mod. Do you use this style or did you drill and tap? I would like to get away without drilling, but I'm suspicious of how sturdy that design is.
- Finally, why must you shoot with both eyes open with a scout style scope?
A scout scope will have a greater range of eye relief than will a pistol scope. If a pistol scope might have a minimum eye relief of nine inches, a scout scope's minimum might be 11 inches. A pistol scope's range of eye relief might be nine-to-13 inches, while a scout scope's range might be 11-to-15 inches. If all you need is 10 inches of eye relief, a pistol scope would be OK; but, typically, a rifle needs more eye relief than that.
Originally Posted by exercisemyright
Since I was doing major modifications, I had the rifle's barrel drilled-and-tapped by a professional, and installed a screwed-on scope base. (I could also have used a Springfield rear-sight base, milled flat and drilled-and-tapped, but that would've been more expensive.)
Originally Posted by exercisemyright
I know only about one brand of "no gunsmithing," rear-sight-replacement scope mounts, and they're OK: B-Square. I use one on my competition Garand. I suggest that a B-Square rear-sight-replacement scope mount is well worth trying.
Scout and pistol scopes are (should be?) low-magnification devices, so you can use your two-eye, central and peripheral vision to enhance your "situational awareness" if you learn to shoot with both eyes open.
Originally Posted by exercisemyright
Since the scope's magnification is low, your brain won't get confused by the difference between the two separate images sent in by your eyes, as it would were you using a peep sight or a high-magnification scope. (It takes a little practice, though.)
It's not so much that you "should" keep both eyes open, but rather that there are so many advantages to doing so that you "should" avail yourself of the benefits of doing it.
Thanks for the quick reply Steve,
I'll continue to look into the scout scope... might end up going that route. Probably won't scope it until the end of summer or later. First I'm going to put an ATI stock on it. Look for range reports within the next week or two though!!
Bought my mosin nagant 91/30 on Saturday fo $89 from a local sports chain in Michigan (Dunham's Sports)..with 40 Winchesters 7.62x54R. On Sunday I was at the range playing with the new toy. I shot it at 25 yards and at 50 yards. The grouping was amazingly accurate (withing 1.5 to 1.75 in) and that is my first time shooting a rifle (I mean a real rifle). I love this gun and can't beleive it is as old as my dad (70 yrs old). Any ways, one observation is that the gun is most probably designed for long distance shooting. The groups at 25 yards were about 4 in above point of aim and at 50 yards were about 8 in above point of aim..This is with the rear sight set to the lowest..So my conclusion is that for these short distances the post in the front sight has to be raised up.
I am discussing this with "exercisemyright" and he pointed out that he has read something similar as well and suggested to use an electrical wire insulation tubing - seems as a good idea..I will try to think about alternative solutions and research the net for other ideas or non-costly solutions..I really hate to do something that will alter the historical nostalgic appearance of the rifle. Any suggestions there in this would be appreciated..
This weekend I will try the electrical tubing and I will try to shoot at 100 yards as well to see if the bullets start dropping at that distance. Boy I don't know what I got myself into now, what if I start wanting to shoot at 200 yards or more, how many trips back and forth I have to do to check on my targets..My Binocular is only a 10x50 .. I am starting to like the challenge here, and what's next?
A "real," major-caliber, WW2 battle rifle has its battle sight set for about 300-350 yards because, with that zero, you can hit somewhere on a man-size target at any distance from "point blank" out to about 300 yards.
Originally Posted by jimmy
You may find that your rifle's "real" zero is at about 200-250 yards, by which I mean that it'll hit at the center of a bullseye when you hold its sights at the bottom-center of that black bullseye at that distance.
Because of the shape of the bullet's trajectory, a long catenary arc from muzzle to target, a battle-sighted rifle will hit high at any point between a point just a little past its muzzle, and its "zero distance."
Rather than (even temporarily) modifying your rifle's front sight, why not shoot it at known distances from 50 through 200 yards, and learn how high or low to hold, to make good hits? That's a real rifleman's solution to the problem you face.
I 've already done that for 25 and 50 yards..I'll keep doing this until I find a final solution to raise the post in the front sight, once done, then I can compenstae by raising the rear sight for different distances. until this is done, I guess I have to work with your advise and to locate my point of aim lower than the intended target.
Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1
I have an old Mosin date stamped 1905. it has been passed down the family. I would like to dress it up. I kind of like the nostalgic look of it though.
it works like a dream
I finally found a good temporary, but for sure working, solution to raise the front sight post..I tried several electrical wire tubing of different sizes until I found the right matching diameter, that will fit just fine over the post. I measured the post length in the front sight and it was 6 mm. I did some calculations and found out that I only need to add 2 mm to the post length, in order to make the grouping right on the target..So by trial and error, I found that I should use a 10 mm tubing length so after I insert it over the post, the resultant added length would be 8 mm ( the other 2 mm will wash out due to shrinkage in the tube length to compensate for stretching to fit around the post diameter. My thought was if the post ended up more than 8 mm and the grouping was too low then I can raise the rear sight to compensate..I cut the wire to a about 2 inches, and then I pulled the copper wire from it and left with the rubber tubing. I then cut a 10 mm length tube and I inserted throught the hole of the front site cover blade, then by using a tweezer, I hold the rubber tube and continued to insert it around the post all the way until it touched the front sight base surface.. This thing is snugged properly and it requires a little check everytime before a shooting trip to make sure it is snuggled properly. It is kind of coating the post with a rubber tube that is a tad longer than the post.
I went today to the range and tested the new front sight solution at 50 yards..It was dead on the point of aim. I like to shoot where I aim. I didn't have much time, but I put 20 rounds of brown bear and got very good grouping. I am extremely happy about the solution. And on Monday I will try to shoot at 100 yards and see what kind of correction I need to do to my rear sight to compensate for the modified front post. I hope I can see the target at 100 yards..May be I should buy larger targets. Any ways, here is a target sheet with 15 rds... It has tight groupings but there are two or three outfliers after my shoulder was hurting and propably I was flinching because I was anticipating the shoulder pain from the mule kick.
Last edited by jimmy; 05-22-2009 at 10:52 PM.
It seems a damn shame to me to think of "bubbaizing" a piece of history, especially when there are so many weapons on the market already made that way. But then again, I'm a collector of military firearms, I want to find ones with matching numbers on parts, without modifications. Changing the stock takes it out of C & R status you know.
Are you absolutely sure about that? I believe that you're wrong, so I'd really appreciate it if you would quote the pertinent chapter and verse of the BATFE regulations.
Originally Posted by stickhauler
You know, I have nothing but good things to say about my Mosin Nagant Carbine M44. I have an AR 15, but you know, if I had to cut and run, i'd really be torn, believe it or not, if I should grab my nagant instead. I love no modifications, I've got 2 more as well. I prefer the M44 over the 38's. I would recommend it to anyone that's strapped for cash but wants a good rifle. I also seem to notice I have a tendancy to get russian weapons, I got the 3 nagants, 2 sks's, and an AK all russian. Anyway back to the nagant, the only problem I have is make sure you tighten everything back down after about 50 rounds through it, especially the bolt holding the fixed magazine in place to the stock. I had the bolt fall out once, other than that they're cherry. I love them.
per the recent rule change here about links being allowed to other forums if related to the post: http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/vie...hp?f=6&t=71567
Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1
The answer is clear in this FAQ from the ATF: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/1972-2007/faq.pdf
What modifications can be made on C&R firearms without changing their C&R classification?
The definition for curio or relic (“C & R”) firearms found in 27 C.F.R. § 478.11 does not specifically state that a firearm must be in its original condition to be classified as a C&R firearm. However, ATF Ruling 85-10, which discusses the importation of military C&R firearms, notes that they must be in original configuration and adds that a receiver is not a C&R item. Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has concluded that a firearm must be in its original condition to be considered a C&R weapon.
It is also the opinion of FTB, however, that a minor change such as the addition of scope mounts, non-original sights, or sling swivels would not remove a firearm from its original condition. Moreover, we have determined that replacing particular firearms parts with new parts that are made to the original design would also be acceptable—for example, replacing a cracked M1 Grand stock with a new wooden stock of the same design, but replacing the original firearm stock with a plastic stock would change its classification as a C&R item.
See also: ATF letter of interpretation: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/1972-2007/faq.pdf
This letter of interpretation also may be of great interest: http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/vie...p?f=39&t=47212
I encourage everyone to do their own research on legal questions and use "source documentation" to obtain their legal opinions - people can be, and often are wrong...even me. And if in doubt, always contact ATF for a written interpretation of your own specific issue.
Reference the original posters questions:
1. Regarding your Mosin Nagant Rifle. It would lose it's C&R status if you put a Monte Carlo or any type synthetic stock on it. If you replaced it with a similar designed stock (like another wooden one from another Mosin Nagant) it would not lose it's C&R status.
2. Regarding the C&R status of the SKS. Yes, most SKS's are C&R (Chinese are not). Read here and double check: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm
3. Reference your stock question for your SKS. It would lose it's C&R status if you put a contemporary folding stock or collapsible stock on it; however in addition since the SKS is a semi-auto firearm it would remove it as a Curio & Relic and place it as a non-sporting firearm - and thus, you need to play the parts game under 922(r).
Bruce, Life Member: NRA
Naval Air Museum Barbers Point
"I personally think we developed language because of our deep inner need to complain."--Jane Wagner
"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom."
I am so satisfied with the 81/90 that I am thinking of buyingthe shorter one the M38 or M44, whatever I can find around a $100 to $130..That gun is so fun to shoot. The ammo is still available in surplus, and it is addictive. I'll shoot mine this Monday too, and can't wait for the mule kick.
Didn't know that. Should have.
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