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  1. #1
    dovehunter is offline Member
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    New Product Kel-Tec RFB/Steve-Mike Rifle Love Fest

    For those who are interested, FYI, according to FN, all models of the RFB will be out mid December 2008. If that's true, that would be a nice gift from Santa. The pictures and video looks very nice. Would not hold my breath, since I waited a year for their FNP 45 to finally hit the street.

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  3. #2
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    So...is it a KelTec or an FN?

    As I understand the RFB, it is made by KelTec but used FAL mags.
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  4. #3
    Baldy's Avatar
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    Question

    Whatca talking about??

  5. #4
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    I believe we're talking about KelTec's .308 bullpup rifle, but I wanted to make sure we're talking about the same thing before I moved it to the Long Gun subforum.

    http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/news.html (Scroll to the bottom.)
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  6. #5
    dovehunter is offline Member
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    Sorry for the confusion, it is a KelTec. I was just referring to the FNP45 that I had wanted and waited almost a year after it was announced.

  7. #6
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Yeah, people have been waiting a looooooooooooooooooooooooong time for the RFB. I'll just move this over to Long Gun. Thanks for clarifying.
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  8. #7
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is offline Senior Member
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    My response to the Kel-Tec RFB rifle is, "How silly!"
    Look at the Kel-Tec mock-up in operation. Now, think about clearing jams.
    Remember that the ejection channel will not be open-sided, as the demo-model's is.
    My complaint about the AUG was that its ejection port was so small that you almost had to remove its barrel to clear any jam. What is the user going to do about clearing a jam in the innards of the RFB?
    What was Kel-Tec thinking?

  9. #8
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    What was Kel-Tec thinking?
    They're probably thinking that the gun is basically a range toy. Which, for virtually all buyers, it will be. How many people use .308 rifles for defense?
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  10. #9
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    They're probably thinking that the gun is basically a range toy. Which, for virtually all buyers, it will be. How many people use .308 rifles for defense?
    Yeah, you're right. Very few people use .308 for defense.
    I, for instance, use .30-'06, in eight-round, en-bloc clips.

  11. #10
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Well, if I had to shoot a guy with a rifle, I guess my Garand would serve as well as anything else. But the "trunk gun" guys seem to like ARs and AKs rather than M1s, M1As and such. Anyway, most people don't carry rifles in their vehicles.
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  12. #11
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Well, if I had to shoot a guy with a rifle, I guess my Garand would serve as well as anything else. But the "trunk gun" guys seem to like ARs and AKs rather than M1s, M1As and such. Anyway, most people don't carry rifles in their vehicles.
    We live in a very rural area. I carry a rifle in my truck.
    It's a M1903A3 in .30-'06, and it has been modified (by me) to break down into two 25"-long pieces so it's easy to store in a bag.
    It's fed by the usual five-round strippers.

    We now return you to the original subject of this thread...

  13. #12
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Steve, you simply must work on your ninjahood. I mean, a bolt action rifle? How will you ever be able to rumble with a platoon of al-Qaeda on the streets of Seattle without an M4gery and a chest rig full of spare 30-round mags?

    Seriously, your rifle sounds outstanding.
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  14. #13
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Steve, you simply must work on your ninjahood...
    Well, I do wear black pants on occasion. Does that help?

  15. #14
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    Well, I do wear black pants on occasion. Does that help?
    Only when paired with tabi shoes and that funny mask.

    But if you painted your '03A3 black and duct taped a Surefire to the stock, you'd be moving in the right direction.

    Seriously, any chance of you posting some pics of the rifle?
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  16. #15
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    ...any chance of you posting some pics of the rifle?
    My Garand is lots prettier, but OK, I'll take some photos of my modified Springfield and post them.
    Give me a day or two.

    Back when I was still active in the Southern California Tactical Combat program, my "everyday" rifle was another Springfield, also self-modified, with a 10-round magazine (fed by strippers), a down-bore "scout" scope and backup Lyman #48 iron sights, and a pull-out bipod.
    When I retired from the program, I decided to upgrade that rifle with a new Fibreglas stock with lots of in-butt storage, and a stronger 10-round mag box.
    But then I moved here to this peaceful little island, and got involved in our community theater, and my "everyday" Springfield has sat forelorn in our basement, in half-finished pieces, ever since.
    I think that my new motto will have to be numquam paratus (totally unprepared).

  17. #16
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Cripes. Did you have a Clifton stock??

    Anyway, pretty is nice, but practical rules.
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  18. #17
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Cripes. Did you have a Clifton stock??...
    Yup. And so's the "new" (uncompleted) one.
    (I may still get to work on it, so if you're interested in buying the outfit, please wait and ask my widow.)

  19. #18
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Any idea whatever happened to Brent Clifton?
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  20. #19
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Any idea whatever happened to Brent Clifton?
    None at all.
    I've been "out of the loop" for almost 15 years now, and haven't communicated with him for at least 12.
    He probably just quietly went out of business. His bipod stocks left a lot to be desired, truth be told, so his business may just have failed.
    I have had to extensively modify his stock, and do a lot of fiddling with its bipod mechanism, to make the outfit work properly.

    Interesting point (because of the origin of this thread): Probably the best civilian built-in-bipod designs are the Kel-Tec and the Steyr (both similar in design and operation). I'd've preferred one of them, but they weren't available yet when I started my project. Further, making a similar setup from scratch would be beyond my mechanical abilities.

  21. #20
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Here are the requested photos of my takedown M1903A3 car gun.
    (Click on each link to enlarge the photo and see detail.)

    1. The rifle in its case:


    2. The rifle parts, out of the case:


    3. The barrelled action:


    4. The modified action in detail:


    5. The stock:


    6. How it goes together, part 1:


    7. The magazine:


    8. How it goes together, part 2:


    9. The rifle, ready to go:

  22. #21
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Very cool and practical gun, Steve!

    Interesting info about the Clifton stocks. I remember reading a few gunrag articles about them years ago which were all praise. But consider the source.

    I guess we can keep our private rifle chat going here until people can actually buy a KelTec RFB, which may be many moons.
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  23. #22
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    ...Interesting info about the Clifton stocks. I remember reading a few gunrag articles about them years ago which were all praise. But consider the source...
    Clifton's bipod slides in and out quite satisfactorily.
    But when you deploy it, the trouble begins.
    The bipod legs are rather thin tubes made of high-tec carbon fiber, and are probably unbreakable by anything short of being run over by an Abrams tank's tread. But they flex. Thus, they could be steadier.
    OK, but they're steady enough, if you snuggle down onto them, to fire a successful shot. And then the rifle bounces, due to recoil. So now you've got to steadily snuggle the rifle down on those willowy legs again, before firing your second shot.
    Further, there's a small hairpin spring between the bipod's legs that causes them to deploy when you've pulled them out, and also causes them to friction-lock into their stock recess when stowed. That spring is not attached very well, depending for security upon its own tension alone, and it tends to fall off and get lost. I had to figure out a way to attach it permanently to the two legs, and I'm still not satisfied with the kludge I came up with. Maybe I'll go to duck tape next, if I ever go back to working on the whole project.
    Clifton went through at least two iterations of his design. I had to send the stock back to him for modification twice. The final time was "the time of the spring," as noted above. I think he made the outfit worse, not better, that last time around.
    So I have a half-finished Clifton bipod stock, a M1903 (not A3) barrelled action, a Pachmayer removable buttpad (providing an easily-accessed stock cavity for cleaning rod, etc.), a custom-made 10-round magazine, a 1.5-power down-bore "scout" scope and mount, and a gorgeous Lyman #48 long-slide (to 1,000 yards) receiver sight (and "globe" front sight to match). A real do-it-yourself, scout rifle kit.
    (In its original, me-made, walnut stock, the barrelled action really did hold a minute-of-angle. For three shots, anyway.)
    And that's the whole story.

  24. #23
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Excellent info. You never read stuff like this in gun magazines.

    After goofing around with sort of building a pseudo-scout on a Mauser action, I circumvented the build process and got a Steyr Scout. I'm very satisfied with it, including the bipod, though it is slowish to deploy (I have seen some pics of a technique with the Clifton that looked very fast).

    But the Steyr doesn't break down like yours, which I think is a great feature. Sort of a Scout combined with one of Jim West's Guide Guns. Excellent!
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  25. #24
    James NM's Avatar
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    Steve & Mike:

    You guys shouldn't carry on in public like this.

    Get a room!

  26. #25
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    My Clifton-stocked do-it-yourself-kit is not intended to be a break-down rifle. It will always be a full-length M1903.

    In my experience (that is, in action against nothing more threatening than cardboard and a scorecard) there is never a need for speed, in deploying a bipod. At bipod distance (more than 250 yards), and if you're prone, you have lots of time before the putative BG musters enough skill or luck to come even close to hitting you.
    (Is that also true in real life? You know much better than I.)
    The reason for the stock-stowable bipod (Clifton, Steyr, Kel-Tec) is only that it's always there when you need it, and it isn't cluttering up your belt (or vest, or harness, or whatever). Speed isn't the issue.

    I have a few minor quibbles with the Steyr Scout Rifle which has kept me from investing in one:
    First, you're stuck with Steyr magazines, and you can reload only by switching them out. I like the M14 system best, which gives you the choice of switching mags or reloading from the top with stripper clips. I like the Mauser/Springfield system next-best because its feed lips are just about indestructible. You never can "run out of" usable magazines, and you can use strippers or you can single-load.
    Second, the Steyr's ejection port is a little too small. It's hard to clear jams, and you can't use stripper clips. Why have a down-bore scout scope, and leave the port clear, if you can't use strippers? Seems silly to me.
    Third, the Steyr uses rear locking lugs. It probably doesn't matter, and it's probably my imagination, but I believe that rear locking lets the bolt body bow and spring, thus letting cartridge brass stretch enough to shorten case life significantly, when you reload.
    Fourth, I prefer real iron sights (well, steel actually), to back up my all-too-vulnerable scope. The Steyr's are plastic.
    But I would really, really like to use the Steyr's bipod arrangement! If a truck ever runs over your Steyr, would you please, please send me its remaining bipod parts?

    I put on an interesting exercise for the SCTC, years ago, in which the shooter was penalized for every bad shot by being made to lose a small amount of function.
    (The exercise was designed to encourage "bad" shooting, so that each contestant would necessarily experience more or less loss of function as he progressed through the course.)
    We started with impediments to breathing. Next came transparent tape over the master eye's eyeglass lens. Then loss of strong-hand trigger finger (by wearing a splinted glove). Then loss of scope, due to transparent tape. (Boy, that was diagnostic: everybody had backup iron sights, but only two people were able to remove their scopes to be able to use them!) There were maybe three more possible function losses beyond those mentioned, including a "broken" leg.
    It's just amazing, what you can still accomplish with iron sights, a bad cold, a hole in your hand, a broken leg, and a damaged master eye, if your rifle is set up correctly in the first place.
    Easily-available bipods were a large convenience-and-compensation factor, as you can well imagine.

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