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  1. #1
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    pic is offline Senior Member HGF Gold Member
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    German made, German quality,

    Does anybody know why a German made firearm, automobiles, have a reputation of quality?

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    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Not all things German are such high quality... if you believe Consumer Reports. Take a look at the reliability records of BMW and Mercedes Benz and compare them to Acura. Honda, Toyota, and even Ford. Mind you, these are not my words, though I do have experience with a 1996 BMW 328i.

    Germans do excel in some things just like Japanese, Americans, and other nations excel in other things. In the period leading up to and after the turn of the 20th century, America was the most powerful economic force on earth, exceeding that of England, Germany, and France combined. This continued right through WWII and continues today. And our war machine in WWII was the best in the world. Planes, ships, small arms, trucks, and yes in one category, tanks. The German tanks were marvelous with one exception. They were slower than ours and when they broke down, technicians had to be summoned to fix them. But this gets away from the question at hand.

    Germany has had a well-earned reputation for engineering in some areas for many years. They are fastidious, tenacious as engineers, and have a penchant for detail and precision which has enabled them to produce some of the worlds best products. As for firearms, a number of other countries are equal and better in some products so that one is a toss up.

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    Not to hijack the thread, but I am surprised the Japanese or Koreans aren't making good mass market guns.

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    pic
    pic is offline Senior Member HGF Gold Member
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    My fault , the question might be to "in general " of a question.
    With the same specs.,Or prints? Same tools.
    Why will the German or immigrant to the surrounding european region in most situations build a better product?
    Even when working here in the USA for an American company.

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    rex
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    I think it comes to history.

    We are a young nation with roots to Britain.We didn't always keep a buisness or trade running down through the generations.The Germans were about precision and did have the trade taught and handed down through generations with long apprenticeships that certain knowledge was only handed down from father to son,the finer points an average apprentice would not be given so easily if at all.Swiss watches were a standard of excellence,Leica makes some of the most precise lense for optics on the planet.Take HK,generations of craftsmen held the workforce.Take the slide off a USP and look at the recision machining to it,there's more precision work to just that slide than is put into an entire Glock pistol.That's why HK is more expensive.Sauer built quality over quantity.

    Of course this doesn't translate into all fields,but in certain ones their quality is second to none and has given them that prestige status.In our earlier days we just weren't there and have a diversity of goods exported out to the world.Once we did get on the ball,we rose fairly quickly with quality and precision,but in the timeline of history we were an infant.

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    pic
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    Quote Originally Posted by rex View Post
    I think it comes to history.

    We are a young nation with roots to Britain.We didn't always keep a buisness or trade running down through the generations.The Germans were about precision and did have the trade taught and handed down through generations with long apprenticeships that certain knowledge was only handed down from father to son,the finer points an average apprentice would not be given so easily if at all.Swiss watches were a standard of excellence,Leica makes some of the most precise lense for optics on the planet.Take HK,generations of craftsmen held the workforce.Take the slide off a USP and look at the recision machining to it,there's more precision work to just that slide than is put into an entire Glock pistol.That's why HK is more expensive.Sauer built quality over quantity.

    Of course this doesn't translate into all fields,but in certain ones their quality is second to none and has given them that prestige status.In our earlier days we just weren't there and have a diversity of goods exported out to the world.Once we did get on the ball,we rose fairly quickly with quality and precision,but in the timeline of history we were an infant.
    You got that pretty close, back in the late 70's early 80's I became an apprentice to a west German machinist. The shop was full of German immigrants, some were East Germans ex pow's.
    I never seen such pride taken in the work they did. It was shameful to put out a mediocre product. Every step was necessary ,even though it did not seem necessary at the time. It would make sense later and you understood that.
    There were times I would get lazy and thought it was good enough. That was corrected immediately. they would not advance you to a position after at least proving You had the potential. You only advanced if earned. MOST never advanced, some sooner, some later. Such pride ,100% of every day.
    I know it could be more of a European overall pride. But my personal experience as a davenport machine builder was German dominated. I did five years and made a career move. Bridgeports,grinders ,lathes, scraping metal to metal surfaces for a proper bearing, heat treating for the proper temper. Building clutches,a good clutch needed good a good surface bearing. It was good work
    Maybe that's why I like heavy metal guns,lol.
    But there was a difference in pride that the German immigrants possessed . I talked to much already

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    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty79 View Post
    Not to hijack the thread, but I am surprised the Japanese or Koreans aren't making good mass market guns.
    Japanese: Howa, Miroku, Sumitomo Heavy Industries—Winchester, Browning
    Korean: Daewoo (now S&T Motiv Co., Ltd.)—too many different gun types to conveniently list.

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    paratrooper is online now Senior Member
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    I have a 2003 R1150RT BMW motorcycle, that I bought new back in Nov. of 2002. I paid more for it than what I would have liked, but I've been around motorcycles all my life, and always wanted a big BMW road bike. As the ole saying goes, if you want to hear the music, you got to pay the piper.

    Anyways, for the most part, I do like it. I have approx. 28K miles on it so far, and only a few issues with it here and there. German engineering is good, but it can be not so well thought out at times.

    It's down on power compared to Japanese bikes the same or near same engine size. The battery is tucked away in such a spot, that makes it about a 30 min. job just to get at it. And, it didn't last as long as Japanese bike batteries have. I replaced it with a 0 maint. gel battery.

    My biggest bitch is with the BMW dealers that see you walk in the door, and they start eye-balling the thickness of your wallet. The last time I had my bike in for service, they tried to rip me off by over-charging me $400.00. BMW's corporate attitude doesn't help either. Bunch of arrogant bastards, as they believe they are never wrong and won't admit it when they are.

    I could go on and on, but I think you catch my drift. This was my 1st and only BMW motorcycle. There will not be another in my future.

    When it comes to motorcycles, the best in the world, on or off-road, is Japanese.

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    pic
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    The Japanese might have surpassed everyone.
    I was reflecting on the pride and the proudness I witnessed in a German dominated company.I believe ,being a nation of immigrants, the crafts, n mostl everything American was learned r passed from mostly European immigrants. I can't think of anything purely American at the moment
    Anybody have any strickly American made inventions that were not European born. Airplanes, trains, automobile, not quite sure
    I do remember people from Japan on many occasions touring the plant.
    I would never buy a Japanese automobile until last month. Lol. We turned into a Honda family. Sorry to the american big three. They pushed me away from the American auto. Hung in there as long as reasonably expected.
    I traded in my ford f150 with 63,000 miles on it.
    When the ford service mechanic is driving my vehicle more then me,that's a problem.

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    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    paratrooper;
    I find myself disheartened by your BMW-bike story.
    Back when I had a Jawa—because I couldn't've come close to affording a BMW—I rode with a couple of guys with BMWs, a couple of guys with assorted Japanese bikes, and one solitary guy with a Harley.
    Those 1960s BMWs were superbly built and well engineered. Everything was pretty easy to get at for service. And anyway, they never broke down. (And neither did my CZ/Jawa, for that matter.) Even the Harley was rock-solid. The Jap bikes were another story, however.
    I think that what happened to BMW was "gentrification." Prices went up, partly because designs got mechanically complicated. Buyers were rich guys who rode once-in-a-while, rather than every day, because their first-line vehicle was a car. So if their bikes needed service, it was no big deal to take them to the dealer, and to pay "full-boat" prices for the work. So complexity just wasn't their problem.
    But that left day-to-day riders out in the cold with empty pockets, and the Jap bike makers stepped in to fill the void. Harley, too.
    And here we are.

  11. #11
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pic View Post
    The Japanese might have surpassed everyone.
    I was reflecting on the pride and the proudness I witnessed in a German dominated company.I believe ,being a nation of immigrants, the crafts, n mostl everything American was learned r passed from mostly European immigrants. I can't think of anything purely American at the moment
    Anybody have any strickly American made inventions that were not European born. Airplanes, trains, automobile, not quite sure
    I do remember people from Japan on many occasions touring the plant.
    I would never buy a Japanese automobile until last month. Lol. We turned into a Honda family. Sorry to the american big three. They pushed me away from the American auto. Hung in there as long as reasonably expected.
    I traded in my ford f150 with 63,000 miles on it.
    When the ford service mechanic is driving my vehicle more then me,that's a problem.
    Sure. Tons of them. In fact, 70% of the inventions created in the 20th century came from right here. The mother of invention is freedom and money. You have to have capital and you have to have the freedom to create.

  12. #12
    paratrooper is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    paratrooper;
    I find myself disheartened by your BMW-bike story.
    Back when I had a Jawa—because I couldn't've come close to affording a BMW—I rode with a couple of guys with BMWs, a couple of guys with assorted Japanese bikes, and one solitary guy with a Harley.
    Those 1960s BMWs were superbly built and well engineered. Everything was pretty easy to get at for service. And anyway, they never broke down. (And neither did my CZ/Jawa, for that matter.) Even the Harley was rock-solid. The Jap bikes were another story, however.
    I think that what happened to BMW was "gentrification." Prices went up, partly because designs got mechanically complicated. Buyers were rich guys who rode once-in-a-while, rather than every day, because their first-line vehicle was a car. So if their bikes needed service, it was no big deal to take them to the dealer, and to pay "full-boat" prices for the work. So complexity just wasn't their problem.
    But that left day-to-day riders out in the cold with empty pockets, and the Jap bike makers stepped in to fill the void. Harley, too.
    And here we are.


    I just don't have enough of a history with BMW to be that well versed on them. Yes, at one time, they were simple and well-crafted.

    But, believe me when I say, things have changed. My bike has ABS, FI, self-diagnosing electronics, and a host of other techno-geek stuff. Newer ones than mine, now have traction-control, variable exhaust tuning, and computer mapping while on the fly.

    The true spirit of motorcycling has been lost for a few decades now. Some will argue that it's called progress, but whatever. I guess it's no different than everyone having a gadget of some kind in their hand and stuck up to their face while walking down the street.

    Seems like anymore if your new car doesn't have celestial navigation of some kind, and a screen to touch and call ahead to the restaurant you're headed to, you're just not keeping up. Oh yeah, heaven forbid that the kids in the rear don't have a touch screen to play movies or games on, for the 20 minute drive.

    Can you say frigging enough already.............?

  13. #13
    pic
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Sure. Tons of them. In fact, 70% of the inventions created in the 20th century came from right here. The mother of invention is freedom and money. You have to have capital and you have to have the freedom to create.
    The Industrial Revolution

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    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pic View Post
    Ooooh...
    That does so bring out the Luddite in me...

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    rex
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    I'm gonna stir the pot here for S&Ggls.

    On the bikes,the old stuff was good with the arguable exception to Harley.It still basically stands today.The Euros and Japs built good stuff that ran,and ran,but when they broke you didn't really fix them roadside.Harley on the other hand,pull out a set of small block Chevy points and condenser,a few simple tools (if it was to that point) and you're up and running down the road.That was pre Evo engines in the mid 80s,then self preservationset in and there were more dealer/mechanic issues involved.Now with pure FI and computers you don't do squat but call for repairs.Everything has gone that way,and quality has gone down the crapper.I'd love to have a tv that lasted 1/2 the time the one 3 ago did.

    But,getting back to nationality and all.There are no real "Americans" to compare with the Germans,English,Japs.The only Americans here are far and few between on reservations or sparsley spread throughout population.We stole from them,contained what was left after the slaughter,and then felt sorry and let them get drunk with less consequence than us and let them make money with cassinos.Pretty sad and wasn't much better than Hitler.But,the point being,your basic American isn't,we're just a diluted down and inbred version of previous societies.I'm American born and bred,but I'm not really,my lineage goes back into Switzerland and Germany.

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    pic
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    Ooooh...
    That does so bring out the Luddite in me...
    Ok my man, what part of Luddite is your thing. Yes,lol ,I googled the definition. Never heard that word.

    I think in relation to the definition, and being myself an American concerned about the USA LOSING JOBS
    Today's biggest threat concerning American jobs IMO is robotics , automation. The jobs being lost leaving the country is all we ever hear about.
    But just as bad if not worse is the automation of a job once held by an American worker.

    If there s a job that can be automated, it will, and has been happening.
    Being a union man for close to 35 years, we were always trying to support American jobs.
    Buy American .
    But today, are you supporting American jobs, or an American robot.lol.
    We are truly in a global economy.
    If you are still true to buying American, and have not given up yet. good for you. But if you think you haven't given up yet you may be wrong.
    I ask if your stock portfolio, 401k. The prospectus may show American companies, the stock market is doing well.
    These American companies that your money is invested with ,are doing business in a global economy. Your money may or may not be supporting American jobs.

  17. #17
    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pic View Post
    Ok my man, what part of Luddite is your thing. Yes,lol ,I googled the definition. Never heard that word.

    I think in relation to the definition, and an American concerned about the USA LOSING JOBS
    Today's biggest threat concerning American jobs IMO is robotics , automation. The jobs being lost leaving the country is all we ever hear about.
    But just as bad if not worse is the automation of a job once held by an American worker.

    If there s a job that can be automated, it will, and has been happening.
    Being a union man for close to 35 years, we were always trying to support American jobs.
    Buy American .
    But today, are you supporting American jobs, or an American robot.lol.
    We are truly in a global economy.
    If you are still true to buying American, and have not given up yet. good for you. But if you think you haven't given up yet you may be wrong.
    I ask if your stock portfolio, 401k. The prospectus may show American companies, the stock market is doing well.
    These American companies that your money is invested with ,are doing business in a global economy. Your money may or may not be supporting American jobs.
    The biggest threat to the American economy is our move away from manufacturing products en masse to that of a service economy. Back when the U.S. was the world's largest producer of goods, we held our future in our own hands. As that slowly began to shift, our future is too tied to other nations. Jefferson and Washington were correct (no surprise there). Foreign entanglements always lead to trouble. I'll leave the reasons for this shift to a different thread and another discussion.

  18. #18
    pic
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    The biggest threat to the American economy is our move away from manufacturing products en masse to that of a service economy. Back when the U.S. was the world's largest producer of goods, we held our future in our own hands. As that slowly began to shift, our future is too tied to other nations. Jefferson and Washington were correct (no surprise there). Foreign entanglements always lead to trouble. I'll leave the reasons for this shift to a different thread and another discussion.
    About the products that are being manufactured here in the USA .automaton is becoming a dominate force . How would that benefit our economy if the workers are robotics . When is the last time you seen a robot stimulating the economy with their hard earned money.
    Give me an example of the types of manufacturing jobs that would stimulate our economy.
    With automation and the decrease in the amount of actual human beings doing the work,,,who is benefiting from automation ? the CEO's.
    I might be viewing this a little narrow minded.
    This thread is wide open,lol. It's all related,thanks

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    SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pic View Post
    About the products that are being manufactured here in the USA .automaton is becoming a dominate force . How would that benefit our economy if the workers are robotics . When is the last time you seen a robot stimulating the economy with their hard earned money.
    Give me an example of the types of manufacturing jobs that would stimulate our economy.
    With automation and the decrease in the amount of actual human beings doing the work,,,who is benefiting from automation ? the CEO's.
    I might be viewing this a little narrow minded.
    This thread is wide open,lol. It's all related,thanks
    It is wide open but stop and think about if for a moment. Automation is inevitable and is not new.

    Example. An invention by an Ohioan who moved to Georgia increased slavery several fold and increased the wealth of the South and the rest of the nation by multitudes. It also helped lead to the War Between the States. Eli Whitney's cotton gin.

    Example. The discovery and harnessing of electrical power vastly improved production and output and set the stage for the modern era.

    We can on but the fact that remains is change is inevitable. While not always good, ref Nazi Germany, it is a fact of life. Modern automation feeds competitive pricing, improved quality, better products, and more jobs. You may be thinking how are more jobs the result of modern automation. People are still going to be needed to man steel mills, auto assembly lines, coal mines and oil fields, and construction. Not to mention the trickle down affect which helps everyone from parts companies to supply houses to grocery stores to barbers to, you name it.

    The nation that no longer builds things is doomed to disaster. We are on that path.

  20. #20
    pic
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    It is wide open but stop and think about if for a moment. Automation is inevitable and is not new.

    Example. An invention by an Ohioan who moved to Georgia increased slavery several fold and increased the wealth of the South and the rest of the nation by multitudes. It also helped lead to the War Between the States. Eli Whitney's cotton gin.

    Example. The discovery and harnessing of electrical power vastly improved production and output and set the stage for the modern era.

    We can on but the fact that remains is change is inevitable. While not always good, ref Nazi Germany, it is a fact of life. Modern automation feeds competitive pricing, improved quality, better products, and more jobs. You may be thinking how are more jobs the result of modern automation. People are still going to be needed to man steel mills, auto assembly lines, coal mines and oil fields, and construction. Not to mention the trickle down affect which helps everyone from parts companies to supply houses to grocery stores to barbers to, you name it.

    The nation that no longer builds things is doomed to disaster. We are on that path.
    Auto assembly lines are manned less n less today ,because of automation. I understand the jobs n parts needed that you have mentioned. But those are jobs we already had. What I am referring to is losing jobs. We are not gaining in respect to the above jobs you mentioned
    Yes we will always need manpower , but the advancement and tech of today is producing these products that provided a family with income ,suddenly they figure out a way to automate that specific procedure ,without providing healthcare ,benefits, vacation pay, breaks. Thanks

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