Thread: The summer of discontent

Here, here!!!!! We must demand that the punishment fit the crime!!!! No more of the probation crap, sort term imprisonment, etc, etc.

You kill someone, we kill you right back. Quickly too, none of this sitting on death row for years on end living off the tax payers.

I think sometimes the punishment can be a joke. And, I also have no problem of self-defense. But, I personally don't agree w/ the death penalty. I don't thik the govt should have that right.

Also, look at the people who have been wrongly accused and vindicated - the ones on death row. We may never know how many people were executed who did not commit the crime. Also, look at the nightmare of all the crap that went on at the Houston Police Crime Lab - faked findings.

I can go w/ life in prison, but I don't go along w/ the death penalty. I used to be pro-death penalty for a long time, but I changed my mind.

How 'bout a compromise? We just put 'em a coma and feed 'em through a tube forever. Saving money but we don't kill 'em.

Originally Posted by jwkimber45

You kill someone, we kill you right back. Quickly too, none of this sitting on death row for years on end living off the tax payers.

That sounds like one of Ron White's bits.

I am all for the death penalty. I think it brings more closure to the family of the victim to see the murderer put to death. In some cases the family members will die before the murderer does and that means they died without closure and knowing that the murderer died. I think the Cali death penalty ought to be used as much as it does in Texas.

Originally Posted by Charlie

How 'bout a compromise? We just put 'em a coma and feed 'em through a tube forever. Saving money but we don't kill 'em.

Good Idea,and we could probably stack em 30 or 40 to a cell and conserve space too

Shipwreck,
I'll disagree with you on the death penalty. The government does have that right, deriving its laws from the consent of the governed. To say that a government has no right to take a life is to take away the ability to wage war.

Also our American heritage is very firmly founded on the Judeo-Christian ethic regarding capital punishment. To abolish that is a slap in the face of those who hold those principles.

I will go no further other than to say I have a very deep and abiding faith which I see being attacked in many quarters.

Bob Wright

Well, "better that 1000 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man be put to death" - I agree with that old saying.

Plus, I think the death penalty is morally wrong. It doesn't bring the murdered person back, and I don't think man has the right to make that final judgement. Also, I believe that killing the murderer does not bring closure - I believe people THINK it will. But it doesn't. Retribution brings no peace. That person will ultimately face their judgement in a way that man cannot give.

I know - strange topic to get in - especially among people who do believe in self defense. So, this is not a pacifist issue. And, I've worked in the crimninal justice field all my life. And, I know I am in the minority in my field when it comes to this view. But, that's my personal opinion.

So, I guess we can civilly agree to disagree...

I still believe in the old eye for an eye thing...Now where was it I read that???? KJV1611 wasnt it? where is the moral dilema in GODs words??

See, this topic is a clash of beliefs. Wouldn't it be a boring world if we all believed the same thing?

You know Shipwreck, I was going to disagree with you just like Bob Wright did. I just have learned from past experiences to not question the admins of sites I belong to. But I guess I can speak my mind here. I disagree with you saying that it doesn't bring closure. I sent a PM to Bob Wright on that subject already and he knows why I feel the way I feel. Basicly a friend was killed by 3 punks near my house and if I could see them die it would certainly bring closure into my life. Yeah, you're right that it wont bring him back, but it certainly will have brought some closure knowing justice was served.

Well, I don't mind disagreement - at least on this thread

We're all free to have our opinion about it - I am glad we can discuss it actually. I'm bothered a bit Bob's statement, though:

I will go no further other than to say I have a very deep and abiding faith which I see being attacked in many quarters.

Maybe I misunderstand it - but it seems like he isn't willing to accept any other viewpoint on this issue.

Like I said, I used to be pro-death penalty. And, at your age, given what happened, I can understand your viewpoint. But, while I may only be 34, I have aged some over the past 10 years or so. I've forgiven a lot of people for things that I thought I could never forgive. And, I do not think revenge brings redemption.

If someone murders me or my wife, I do not support the death penalty. I do support life in prison. And, I have no problem defending myself in a self-defense situation. But, I do have a problem with that. And, for me personally - I think that once that killer is executed, the family will feel no better. I've read some stories in the past where that has come to pass.

Like I said, though, we all have our own opinion.

Originally Posted by Shipwreck

Well, I don't mind disagreement - at least on this thread

We're all free to have our opinion about it - I am glad we can discuss it actually. I'm bothered a bit Bob's statement, though:



Maybe I misunderstand it - but it seems like he isn't willing to accept any other viewpoint on this issue.

Like I said, I used to be pro-death penalty. And, at your age, given what happened, I can understand your viewpoint. But, while I may only be 34, I have aged some over the past 10 years or so. I've forgiven a lot of people for things that I thought I could never forgive. And, I do not think revenge brings redemption.

If someone murders me or my wife, I do not support the death penalty. I do support life in prison. And, I have no problem defending myself in a self-defense situation. But, I do have a problem with that. And, for me personally - I think that once that killer is executed, the family will feel no better. I've read some stories in the past where that has come to pass.

Like I said, though, we all have our own opinion.

I am definitely for the death penalty. Man and government do have the right to impose the death penalty. I completely agree with Bob's remarks. The one clarification I would like to make in regards to Shipwrecks comment on final judgement is this.... Final Judgement in the bible is not life and death on this earth. Everyone should know that this is only the temporary part of life. In many instances our own actions and decisions will determine the actual duration of this temporary period. Final Judgement is is decided by God alone after death on earth. Final Judgement pertains to Heaven or Hell and there is no man who gets to decide the final fate for anyone else. I do not want to get all biblical on this issue even though all issue can be, but I feel that I should support Bob in his comments and show clarification where it is due.

Also, I might support life imprisonment if it was worse living than 25% of the free population. Prisons these days are so accomodating. I'm not saying they are hotels, but prisoners have access to things that that many people in the US will never be able to afford. Prison alone is not as much of a deterent for crime as it was in the past. These places should be cold, dark and wet. People would think twice before committing crimes if worse punishment awaited.

whatever happened to sitting in a cell,with NO cable TV,radio,magazines ,newspapers,weight lifting equipment, etc etc. and contemplating the CRIME you are in there for????????

I go back and forth on the death penalty, and I can see both sides of the argument.

What it boils down to for me is a question which I think this nation needs to address as a whole:

What is the goal of the penal system?

Punishment or deterrence?

If it's punishment, I feel that spending the rest of your life behind bars, without parole, is a far worse punishment than a death sentence. A lethal injection is getting off easy, if you ask me. And I can understand the need for closure on the part of the victims, but two wrongs don't always make a right.

If it's deterrence, then I'd imagine that having the death penalty would serve well - I certainly don't want to die, therefore, I avoid commiting such crimes.

Some killers are just monsters, plain and simple. So a death penalty may be the only way to go. But others are the product of misfortune - poverty, abuse, etc.. should they die when life handed them such a bad deal?

..questions I've yet to answer for myself...

Originally Posted by scooter

whatever happened to sitting in a cell,with NO cable TV,radio,magazines ,newspapers,weight lifting equipment, etc etc. and contemplating the CRIME you are in there for????????

+1 I agree, there is no sense in taxpayers paying for all that nonsense.

If it's punishment, I feel that spending the rest of your life behind bars, without parole, is a far worse punishment than a death sentence. A lethal injection is getting off easy, if you ask me. And I can understand the need for closure on the part of the victims, but two wrongs don't always make a right.

I'm all for the death penalty!!! I belive we sould go back to public executions!!! Maybe that would deter some idiots from doing what they're doing.

Some killers are just monsters, plain and simple. So a death penalty may be the only way to go. But others are the product of misfortune - poverty, abuse, etc.. should they die when life handed them such a bad deal?

True, some folks are given a poor hand in life. BUT, one is responsible for his/her own decisions.............its just plain wrong to blame your issues/crimes on others or your misfortune.

You do the crime, you do the time.....

What jwkimber45 said.

Originally Posted by A_J

Punishment or deterrence?

Well, I think its fair to say that it serves no deterrence - they even talked about that in my old Criminal Justice classes in college - heck - states w/ the death penalty usually have a higher crime rate (I read that someplace).

I see some quotes from the bible here - I guess we all have our take on religious implications and views - I'm not going to get into mine - But, I see am am the only one here against it so far

Originally Posted by jwkimber45

True, some folks are given a poor hand in life. BUT, one is responsible for his/her own decisions.............its just plain wrong to blame your issues/crimes on others or your misfortune.

You do the crime, you do the time.....

Don't get me wrong, I whole-heartedly agree with that.

I guess what I was getting at is that in some senses the justice system seems to be geared towards rehabilitating - i.e. "behave yourself in prison and you might get out early if we think that you've changed your ways". Which sounds like giving someone a break.

On the other hand the death penalty is like saying "we don't care what got you to that point, you're going down forever". Which sounds like retribution..

And my conflict is that the two exist in the same penal system.

Ha! I guess that's what judges are for!

And in response to you, Shipwreck, you're right when talking about death penalties serving little or no deterrence value - I blame that partly on the extremely drawn out appeals process - even if you get the death penalty, it may be decades before it's carried out.

And I guess I'm for it when there's no chance that the person is ever going to be a productive memebr of society and that as soon as they were to get out, they'd murder again.

But I'm against it when there would be a possibilty of the person turning over a new leaf - what if a convicted killer were to realize the error of his ways and therefore do charity work and positively effect the lives of dozens of kids?

I suppose it depends on the situation..

So much for me contirbuting a solid opinion!

Oh man! I agreed with everything you said A_J utill you said "that's what judges are for". Ruined it for me. I think we are down to not making a moral decision necessarily but, what the hell do we do with somebody whose a danger to society (for whatever reason). GITMO? I think there is enough killing without us doin' it and justifying it to ourselves.

I don't quite follow where you're at Charlie, but what I meant was if there's a mixed message of rehabilitation vs. retribution in our justice system, then someone has to decide on an individual basis.. and since I'm obviously conflicted, it can't be me. So a judge needs to judge the individual case.

And I guess this got me thinking - as a greater whole, if someone is a danger to society (regardless of reason, upbringing, etc.) then the greater good to society is served by separating them from society, and that can be accomplished without putting them to death. Kind of like Spock said - "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one."

Ooh.. my head's starting to hurt..

...death penalties serving little or no deterrence value - I blame that partly on the extremely drawn out appeals process - even if you get the death penalty, it may be decades before it's carried out.

Exactly - SWIFT JUSTICE

It should be out where the world can see it too. Not tucked away behind closed doors in semi-secrecy.


OK I'll hop off the soap box now.....

A_J, I think we're at the same place. I just have NO faith in judges as being, "all knowing", right because they said it, etc. We're always reading about some judge letting some killer, rapist, etc. go 'cause "he had adhd" as a child, or "he didn't get enough vitamins as a youngster" or some other ridiculous crap!!!! There is no easy answer. Rant off. BP goin' up.

Agreed - morally, I prefer jury trials.. at least then it's a concensus of several people, rather than the interpretation of one.