View Poll Results: ND or AD

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  1. #1
    Todd is offline Banned
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    AD or ND in this situation?

    Let's say you own a gun that has a known mechanical flaw that causes it to fire when dropped. You choose not to have it fixed. So now you drop the gun, and it fires. Would you consider that an AD since it's a mechanical failure or would you consider that a ND since your negligence in handling the firearm ultimately led to its firing?

    Personally, I have to lean towards ND for two reasons; failure to handle a firearm safely and the fact that you knew of the problem and did not get it it fixed.

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  3. #2
    zhurdan's Avatar
    zhurdan is offline Senior Member
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    I'd say ND. It'd be like knowing your breaks are bad on your car and not fixing them. Negligent all the way.

    Zhur

  4. #3
    tekhead1219's Avatar
    tekhead1219 is offline Senior Member
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    I agree with the ND. You know there's a problem but don't fix it? No brainer.

  5. #4
    Mike Barham's Avatar
    Mike Barham is offline Senior Member
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    ND, no question.
    Employed by Galco Gunleather - www.galcogunleather.com / Veteran OEF VIII

    Donate to the Christian and Stephanie Nielson Recovery fund: http://www.nierecovery.com/.

    All opinions, particularly those involving politics and Glocks, are mine and not Galco's.

  6. #5
    Todd is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by tekhead1219 View Post
    I agree with the ND. You know there's a problem but don't fix it? No brainer.
    A no-brainer for all that replied, but I'm sure, sadly, that there is someone out there in this world that would put the blame on the gun. Maybe we'll even see someone here!?!

  7. #6
    unpecador's Avatar
    unpecador is offline Senior Member HGF Gold Member
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    The obvious negligence is avoiding to fix a known problem. It's possible the dropping may occur from something other than negligent handling. Either way, fixing the gun should take presedence.

  8. #7
    Fred40 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd View Post
    A no-brainer for all that replied, but I'm sure, sadly, that there is someone out there in this world that would put the blame on the gun. Maybe we'll even see someone here!?!

    Hard to imagine. ND all the way.

  9. #8
    kev74's Avatar
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    Its negligence on two counts. One on the part of the manufacturer who releases a gun without completing the necessary safety testing, and on the part of the operator who doesn't get the thing fixed.

    In this instance, there's no mechanical failure (i.e. nothing broke), but rather a faulty design on the part of the manufacturer that should have been caught before production started.

    It will be interesting to see if the SR9 and LCP in their original unrepaired configurations become collectible in 20 years.

  10. #9
    Spartan's Avatar
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    If one neglects to fix a firearm with a known issue, and it goes off because of that issue, it was discharged neglectfully. ND for sure.

  11. #10
    tekhead1219's Avatar
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    If we do see someone here.....we can beat it into them.

  12. #11
    Ptarmigan is offline Member
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    ND. There is no such thing as an AD, in my opinion and according to all the training I have received.

  13. #12
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    TOF
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    It is obviously the manufacture's fault, not.

    ND without question.

  14. #13
    JeffWard's Avatar
    JeffWard is offline Senior Member
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    If you follow the correct rules and practices for handling ANY firearm (ie every gun is a loaded gun... keep your booger-hook off the bang-switch, etc...) there is NO SUCH THING AS AN A.D.!!!

    ADs do not happen.

    Like a surgeon accidentally amputating the wrong arm...
    Like accidentally crossing the center line in your car and killing someone…
    Like accidentally shooting someone in the face with a shotgun…
    Like accidentally cheating on your wife…

    Accidental Discharge is laughing so hard you pee your pants….

    … and that’s about the only case…

    My Un-Opinionated Opinion
    JW

  15. #14
    Ptarmigan is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffWard
    Accidental Discharge is laughing so hard you pee your pants….
    That is some funny crap, Jeff.

  16. #15
    stetson is offline Junior Member
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    Your kidding right? Who would let a pistol out with known mechanical
    defects ? Just asking for trouble !

  17. #16
    Todd is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by stetson View Post
    Your kidding right? Who would let a pistol out with known mechanical
    defects ? Just asking for trouble !
    Let's just say I got the idea from a statement made from a member in another, recent thread.

  18. #17
    DevilsJohnson is offline Senior Member
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    Thumbs down

    ND

    Anytime you can negate a dangerous situation but choose to not then your inaction is responsible for any problems that inaction causes. Your brakes go bad you fix them. It's still your fault if you don't then wreck your car.
    Last edited by DevilsJohnson; 11-15-2008 at 06:43 PM. Reason: toy? whew fixed spelling

  19. #18
    niadhf's Avatar
    niadhf is online now Senior Member
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    and "holy greatness" forbid that that member ever have an issue with that gun. Funny though there is no AD response yet..........

    Negligence is not acting a in a responsible matter. so ND. The discharge part is just the aftermath. or the begining of the aftermath probably.

  20. #19
    Bisley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd View Post
    Let's just say I got the idea from a statement made from a member in another, recent thread.
    Somebody trolling for me?

    When somebody drops a gun, it is negligence, whether there is a discharge or not. For the rest of it, you and your posse can discuss it among yourselves and I'll check back in a couple of days for your ruling.

  21. #20
    Todd is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bisley View Post
    Somebody trolling for me?

    When somebody drops a gun, it is negligence, whether there is a discharge or not. For the rest of it, you and your posse can discuss it among yourselves and I'll check back in a couple of days for your ruling.
    Well, I was keeping it anonymous as to who "inspired" the thread but since you outed yourself, this is the quote that got me thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bisley View Post
    I have an LCP that has to go back.

    I'm still carrying it every day, and I still shoot it regularly. I just don't drop it.
    I don't care what anyone else says, my opinion is it is arrogant and irresponsible to carry a gun that has a known mechanical defect because you "don't drop guns". That gun should be sitting in the safe until it is fixed! If you'd only take yourself out if the unthinkable and impossible happened and you dropped then gun and it fired, then I wouldn't care. I'd chalk another one up to Darwin and move on. But the fact that you are carrying it regularly and bringing it to the range, where you are putting other people in danger because of your hubris, is appalling to me. I don't need a "posse" to discuss it with to come to that conclusion.

  22. #21
    Bisley's Avatar
    Bisley is offline Senior Member
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    You are making way too big a deal out of this. Until now, I always thought moderators were supposed to mediate and dampen conflict, rather than go out of their way to incite it.

    OK, here's my last word on the subject. Do with it whatever you will, because I respect your own good judgement a little bit less, now, and it does not matter very much to me that you disapprove.

    First off, I am 57 years old, so I have handled a lot of guns that would fire when dropped. I also drove a car for many years before seat belts became a requirement, and I have ridden motorcycles without a helmet. All of the safety requirements that have been added through the years are OK with me, but I am not afraid of, nor will I reject an older gun, just because it does not have them. That is my personal preference. You know your own limitations better than I, so you do what's best for you and yours.

    As for endangering others by carrying a gun that could go off if dropped, I think you can easily overwork the "what if" scenarios, in that regard. Here's the only way I ever carry the LCP. I use it only when going to work, or going to the shooting range, because everywhere else, I am able to carry something much better.:

    Take the spare magazine and the gun out of the safe. (The safe is in a room with a wood floor and a thickly padded carpet.) Inspect the gun briefly, drop the mag and tap it lightly on something to reseat the cartridges, then re-insert it. Stick the gun in the holster, stick the holster in right front pocket, stick magazine in left front pocket, and go to work.

    Work 8-12 hours, come home, remove the gun from the holster and place it back in safe.

    The only opportunity there ever is for me to drop the gun is when I take it out of the safe, or put it back in...unless, God forbid, I should ever have to pull it out to shoot at someone. In that case, any innocent bystanders will very likely have a lot more to fear from the bad guy, than from my bumbling about with a loaded mouse gun.

    If I drop the gun when removing it from the safe, and the soft carpet does not cushion it enough to prevent a discharge, then the only person in danger from a negligent discharge is me.

    If I drop the gun at the shooting range, it lands on dirt. If it goes off, it endangers only me, because I choose my shooting times when I will have the handgun range to myself.

    That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Do whatever scolding you wanted to do, and let's move on to something more interesting. I'm through with this subject.

  23. #22
    Todd is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bisley View Post
    You are making way too big a deal out of this. Until now, I always thought moderators were supposed to mediate and dampen conflict, rather than go out of their way to incite it.
    So because I am a mod I cannot have an opinion on something and am just supposed to sit back and watch the forum go by? Dream on. I'm not inciting conflict. In fact, I kept your name out it it many times and just made it a generic issue and wanted to see people's opinions. You're the one that chose to out yourself and make it personal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bisley View Post
    because I respect your own good judgement a little bit less, now, and it does not matter very much to me that you disapprove.
    Oh no! Say it isn't so! Just as you have no regard for my opinion in this matter, I am equally, if not more, indifferent as to your opinion of my judgment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bisley View Post
    That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Do whatever scolding you wanted to do, and let's move on to something more interesting. I'm through with this subject.
    Sugar coat it any way you want about how safe you are. You knowingly carry a defective product. That's all I need to know and care about. It's not scolding. It's simply my opinion. Anyone that knowingly carries a defective gun is reckless and irresponsible. You don't like what I have to say about, don't follow the thread. I'm not going to change my opinion nor am I going to end the thread. It's a real issue and deserves to be discussed if members want to.

  24. #23
    Bisley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd View Post
    I'm not going to change my opinion nor am I going to end the thread.
    Who asked for that?

    Use your bully pulpit any way you choose. There are other topics I can possibly make a contribution in, unless you decide to use your immense power to chase me off.

  25. #24
    Ptarmigan is offline Member
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    I do not want to get into an argument with anyone, but I agree with Todd 100% that for anyone to carry a gun they know may fire if dropped is irresponsible. With all due respect, the owner's age and/or experience level does not matter. The weapon can still be dropped. The attitude that one has been around guns long enough as to be trusted with a defective one is, for lack of a better term, very dangerous and arrogant.

    I recall a basic student in the police academy where I served as a firearms instructor who refused any advice from the staff with regards to firearms. He claimed to have been the state pistol champion in the 1970s and knew all there was to know about shooting and about handguns in general. We tried to work with him but felt that as long as he was safe, we would let him do his own thing. Approximately five minutes before our first live drill session, the student came to get me and stated that his gun was "broken." He showed me a S&W model 4506 and said that it fired when he engaged the safety. He then proceeded to decock the weapon.

    Upon inspection of the weapon, I discovered that there was nothing wrong with it and I asked how much he had shot it in the past. It turned out that it was not even his and that he had borrowed it from a friend. He had never shot it, nor read the instruction manual. His attitude was that, as the alll knowing 1970 whatever state pistol champ, he knew how to shoot and operate any and all pistols.

    I think we can all agree that this could have all ended very badly had he not admitted his ignorance of the particular weapon he was using, and asked for help.

    Again, I am not trying to "jump" on anyone, or lecture, but I do feel that the topic is an important one to discuss.

  26. #25
    Todd is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bisley View Post
    Use your bully pulpit any way you choose. There are other topics I can possibly make a contribution in, unless you decide to use your immense power to chase me off.
    PM inbound.

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