Justified Deadly Force - Page 2

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    1. #21
      Member kev74's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by unpecador View Post
      Thought about it more and I've come to the conclusion that you are exactly what the BG ordered... and it appears you would be carrying. You may have a gun in your pants but apparently no balls.
      Nice. A personal attack over a hypothetical response to a hypothetical situation. I thought that was only allowed on political threads...

    2. #22
      Senior Member HGF Gold Member unpecador's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by kev74 View Post
      Nice. A personal attack over a hypothetical response to a hypothetical situation. I thought that was only allowed on political threads...
      The Devil made me do it.

    3. #23
      Senior Member Mike Barham's Avatar
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      We can't be alert enough to anticipate every threat that could ever possibly materialize. It's a cop-out to say "Well, if you were in Yellow, you would have seen the threat." Crap happens in real life, and sometimes undesirable people get close to us. Very occasionally, they try to hurt us.

      I have no real issues with someone making the informed decision to give up a little bit of cash to avoid shooting someone. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you have to use to respond to every situation. gmaske's decision to fork over a hundred bucks or whatever may be perfectly rational when compared against the $50K or so in attorney's fees he may have to pay if he shoots a guy. And the fact that he decides to cough up the cash doesn't prevent him from shooting if he sees the need and an opening to do so with reasonable safety.

      Weighing the cost-benefit ratio, I might do the same, while carefully eyeballing the guy to see if I will need to shoot him. It's not so much a lack of courage (or "balls," if you prefer). It's more that I can swallow a lot of pride to avoid shooting someone. I don't have anything to prove, and I certainly have nothing to prove to some lowlife street criminal whose opinion of me matters not a whit.

      Just because you can shoot doesn't mean you should shoot. And just because you don't shoot doesn't make you a coward. It may, in fact, make you smart.
      Last edited by Mike Barham; 09-19-2008 at 11:17 AM.
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    4. #24
      Member Willy D's Avatar
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      Here is what Mike said:

      We can't be alert enough to anticipate every threat that could ever possibly materialize. It's a cop-out to say "Well, if you were in Yellow, you whould have seen the threat." Crap happens in real life, and sometimes undesirable people get close to us. Very occasionally, they try to hurt us.


      Look at the assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan...Broad daylight, secret service agents surrounding him. Guns ready..Highly trained..alert and ready for any threat on the presidents life...Then look at the gunman, his gun and training...A wacko with a 6 shot 22 cal revolver...Not trained in shooting, bought the gun at a pawn shop and hit 4 different people with the six shots....

      Willy

    5. #25
      Senior Member HGF Gold Member unpecador's Avatar
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      I never said the best thing to do is shoot nor have I made any suggestions to shoot or taking any unlawful actions. I don't view it as pride either, I do not like the idea of submitting and then hoping everything works out for the best based on BG's good faith if such exists. However, to each his own.

      I realize that I was out of line for making that comment about gmaske, it was an assumption and inappropriate on my part.

    6. #26
      Member Willy D's Avatar
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      unpecador.....I, like you, cringe at the very thought of having a gun on me, knowing how to use it and giving up money to some ass who comes up and sticks a gun in my face...I have never had this happen and I hope I never do...Ever since I first bought my first gun, I have played that scenario through my head...I have talked to people and read stuff (In the Gravest Extreme, by Ayoob and quite a few stories he has written in handgun magazines) and what that has done is made me stop and think of things...I have read Ayoobs book on combat handgunnery too...I want to be prepaired mentally and physically IF something like that should ever arise and at the same time, I hope it never happens to me and I try to think ahead and not get in that situation....

      If it ever happens, what will be impprtant is what I DO DO and not what I should do or could do...I hope I make the right choices..I really do

      Willy

    7. #27
      Senior Member Mike Barham's Avatar
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      Reading books and magazines is okay, but if this stuff really concerns you, don't buy yet another gun. Spend the money on training instead. I've taken Ayoob's LFI-1 course, and it is well worth the money and time.

      "You won't rise to the occasion, you'll default to your level of training." - Barrett Tillman
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    8. #28
      Senior Member HGF Gold Member unpecador's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Willy D View Post
      unpecador.....I, like you, cringe at the very thought of having a gun on me, knowing how to use it
      Huh...? I don't carry but I'm very comfortable with handling guns regardless.

    9. #29
      Senior Member gmaske's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
      We can't be alert enough to anticipate every threat that could ever possibly materialize. It's a cop-out to say "Well, if you were in Yellow, you would have seen the threat." Crap happens in real life, and sometimes undesirable people get close to us. Very occasionally, they try to hurt us.

      I have no real issues with someone making the informed decision to give up a little bit of cash to avoid shooting someone. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you have to use to respond to every situation. gmaske's decision to fork over a hundred bucks or whatever may be perfectly rational when compared against the $50K or so in attorney's fees he may have to pay if he shoots a guy. And the fact that he decides to cough up the cash doesn't prevent him from shooting if he sees the need and an opening to do so with reasonable safety.

      Weighing the cost-benefit ratio, I might do the same, while carefully eyeballing the guy to see if I will need to shoot him. It's not so much a lack of courage (or "balls," if you prefer). It's more that I can swallow a lot of pride to avoid shooting someone. I don't have anything to prove, and I certainly have nothing to prove to some lowlife street criminal whose opinion of me matters not a whit.

      Just because you can shoot doesn't mean you should shoot. And just because you don't shoot doesn't make you a coward. It may, in fact, make you smart.
      EXACTLY MY POINT!
      Thank you sir!

    10. #30
      Senior Member gmaske's Avatar
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      unpecador
      I'd rather keep my balls and loose a few bucks than the other way around! No harm no foul and thanks for the PM.

      Every situation has its veriables so what you could or should do is diffrent for each circumstance. Step one should always be to try and avoid getting in to a corner in the first place. Now that I can and do carry I see things a bit diffrently. I'm old enough to know that there are going to be times that if somebody has the upper hand you do what you need to do to survive. If things start to get bad you still have the ultimate option. It is easy to sit in front of a computer and think, "I have a gun so no one is ever going to get the better of me", but reality can be quite diffrent. I find that the more I think on it the more I question just what would justify deadly force. If you are confronted with deadly force then by all means if you can defend yourself then do it and don't mess around about it but there is a lot of gray to concider also.
      The points and questions asked in the original post are very good ones. Anyone that carries needs to think on them.
      (I just keep adding to this)
      (A side note)
      When I finally got my CCL and started to carry the biggest thing I felt was a sense of responsibility! At the very least I'm glad I was mature enough to see that.

    11. #31
      Senior Member HGF Gold Member unpecador's Avatar
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      You're welcome.

      I am well aware of real life situations, I have defended myself on more than one occasion and in each of those, the thought of submitting never crossed my mind as I had no intention of finding out what would happen if I cooperated. The concern that I have when somebody has the upper hand over me is trusting them not to do me harm even if I cooperate.

    12. #32
      Senior Member gmaske's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by unpecador View Post

      The concern that I have when somebody has the upper hand over me is trusting them not to do me harm even if I cooperate.
      ......and there in lies the rub! If you are young and quick and you see your chance then it's your play. When you get older and stove up a bit you have to think about it a bit more.....BUT.....Just remember, Old men don't fight fair!

    13. #33
      Senior Member HGF Gold Member unpecador's Avatar
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      Understood sir.

      I too would prefer to cheat in a fight as well.

    14. #34
      Member Kyle1337's Avatar
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      my .02 cents. From my own couple of personal experiences of being acosted with a gun to me twice and a knife while working I've found that feigning weakness can give you a way bigger advantage in a "fight" or confrontation with an armed individual. The outcomes depending on the circumstances can hardly been seen in most situations, that will change once we're all able to read minds. Both times of being acosted I was armed myself. With the knife incident, I talked the person down even though I had an asp and oc spray at my disposal. But I didn't use them. My verbal judo actually worked! Now while at gun point I just gave them what they wanted, so I had to cancel my cards and checks. I never carry cash. No biggie. However when it comes down to lethal force that's depedant on a million different reasons, circumstances, thought processes, thinking and yes possibly even feelings, its hard to let those go and think clearly in a fast paced stressful situation. That's why we train and train and train. So it becomes muscle memory and those feelings and thoughts don't interfere. Anyway, I'm veering a little off track. My final thoughts on this is only this in the very end of using lethal force, I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

    15. #35
      Senior Member Steve M1911A1's Avatar
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      I was held up, Jennings .22 or .25 held to my head as I sat in the passenger seat of my wife's car, by a 16-year-old kid and his friend. They wanted some cash to play with, in the nearby video-game parlor.
      I lived in a city that did not allow its citizens to carry a defensive gun, so, pursuant to the law, I was unarmed at the time.
      The kid didn't get my money because I wouldn't coöperate and I fought back, and also because my wife blew the car's horn to scare the kid. The two of them ran off.
      I still think about it: Had I been armed, I would've killed at least one 16-year-old child.
      That possibility still bothers me.

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