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  1. #1
    prcabr4christ's Avatar
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    crime & punishment

    Had to throw my .02 out there...especially since we're a "Christian" nation... *cough...cough*
    Genesis 9:66 "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."
    I see this as a responsibilty to our society, 2000 years before the law was even given to Moses, our Creator gave us this nugget. I'm not saying that we should go out and go on a killing spree of all murderers, since it's supposed to be in the hands of the government.
    2000 years later the law was expanded to include all crimes that are worthy of the punishment of a "capital" nature, and they go as follows...
    1. murder
    2. striking a father or mother
    3. kidnapping
    4. cursing a father or mother
    5. adultery
    6. incest
    7. beastiality
    8. homosexuality
    9. unchastity
    10. rape
    11. witchcraft
    12. offering of human sacrifices
    13. habitual delinquincy (did I spell that right? lol)
    14. blasphemy
    15. breaking the sabbath
    16. worshipping or entincing to worship false gods
    17. refusing to abide by a court decision
    18. false prophecy

    Ok, I'm not gonna get too far into all of those crimes, but as I see our correctional system going backwards and "rehabilitating" prisoners for crimes that God has given the responsibility to society for instituting capital punishment (by man his blood shall be shed)...My dad has been a CO for 27 years, and even he sees that the rehabilitation rarely works the way it's intended. After reading all the news stories on your guys' forums today, I had to speak my mind....these murderers and rapists etc don't need rehabilitation, they need their blood to be shed...a lot of times people get too concerned with the people and families that these crimes have been perpetrated against, and to think that a family member of mine could be killed either premeditated or just senselessly, and the idiot that killed them could spend 10 years being fed, clothed, and out of the weather is not only sickening, but that goes against the sense of justice that God has placed in the hearts of the human race. Wanna improve our economy? Think about this...20,000 murders happen every year in our country, how much money would we save if we just gave the perps what they deserve? Overcrowding in prisons....I got an idea on how to save some money
    I figured this audience would appreciate my thoughts

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  3. #2
    kev74's Avatar
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    First, out Founding Fathers, while they were Christian, didn't set out to create a Christian nation. They had the good sense to guarantee the freedom to choose and to practice religion freely. Otherwise we would run the risk of being governed by religious zealots like the taliban or the Saudis, etc.

    Second, I have a hard time figuring out how those who use scripture to support their opinions decide which verses they should cherry pick from, considering there is quite a bit of contradictory direction in there. Or should we really kill people for eating shellfish or shaving their beards? After all, the good book says they are an abomination and should be killed. I hate to disagree with the word of God, but that seems a bit harsh to me.

    Here's one of my favorites.

    "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."
    —Matthew 5:38-42

    It kind of makes you wonder if Rev. King or Mr. Gandhi were on to something.

  4. #3
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Well, I guess you'd have to send your Christian Taliban to try to kill me, because in my life I've been guilty, at least technically, of:

    2. striking a father or mother
    4. cursing a father or mother
    5. adultery
    9. unchastity
    13. habitual delinquency (I fixed it for you)
    14. blasphemy
    15. breaking the sabbath

    Regardless of how the Founders may have personally felt about their faith, they went to great lengths to ensure our justice system was a secular one as free of bias as humans can make something. We might have once been a "Christian nation," but I don't think that's been true for a long time.

    Countries like Afghanistan kill you over things like being gay. Even suggesting it's remotely appropriate in a civilized Western nation is absurd, just because some superstitious Middle Eastern primitives did it thousands of years ago. In Afghanistan, I served with several soldiers who were clearly gay. They did a fine job, just as good as anyone else. What have you done for America, or do you just complain about it?

    I agree that murderers and rapists should be put to death, but only after they are given the due process of law that is guaranteed to every citizen in the Constitution. To do otherwise risks taking innocent life with society's approval.
    Last edited by Mike Barham; 07-15-2008 at 02:36 PM.
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    One that comes to mind for me... not being overly religious but it stuck with me...

    "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

    Not sure how many of us can even think about picking up a stone let alone killing someone for their sins. If the need ever arose, I'd take a life to protect myself and my family and in a rare circumstance protect someone else if there was no other recourse, but I'm not bill collector or pure enough as the fallen snow to judge anyone, I'd be dead 3 or 4 times over by those rules!

    Zhur

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  6. #5
    submoa is offline Member
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    Dude,

    We already don't execute prisoners on death row and you want to add to the backlog?

    Priorities... priorities

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Well, I guess you'd have to send your Christian Taliban to try to kill me, because in my life I've been guilty, at least technically, of:

    2. striking a father or mother
    4. cursing a father or mother
    5. adultery
    9. unchastity
    13. habitual delinquency (I fixed it for you)
    14. blasphemy
    15. breaking the sabbath
    Mike,
    You're a wilder and crazier guy than I thought... geez...

    Lets see... my list of capital crimes:

    4. cursing a father or mother (on the golf course)
    9. unchastity (ah... yes)
    11. witchcraft (he he.. it was naked, it was fun!)
    13. habitual delinquincy (what time was I supposed to be to class?)
    14. blasphemy (again, on the golf course)
    15. breaking the sabbath (again, on the golf course...)

    God Damn... golf is a BAD sport... Oops, there I go again...

    I've got witchcraft over you...

    JeffWard

  8. #7
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffWard View Post
    Mike,
    You're a wilder and crazier guy than I thought... geez...
    Alas, I am not quite the James Dean I seem:

    2 and 4 came from a comparatively mild teenage tussle with my father.
    5 came from when I was legally separated from my first wife, but not technically divorced. (But I assume divorce is also punishable by death at the hands of the Christian Taliban.)

    I am an unchaste, blaspheming, sabbath-breaking deliquent, however. And sometimes I offer false prophecy after a few too many beers.

    I've got witchcraft over you...
    BURN HIM!!!!!
    Last edited by Mike Barham; 07-15-2008 at 03:19 PM.
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  9. #8
    Old Padawan's Avatar
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    Ahhhh yesssss. Another theological posting to help lead me from my erroneous ways in this sinful milieu of free America.

    Lets see.
    I renounced god on 09-11-01
    I have struck my father (knocked teeth out)
    Adultery (ohh boy did I do that one)
    I have stolen
    I have cursed god and man
    I have lied (it helped with the adultery)
    I treat the Sabbath as any other day
    I have cursed my father
    I was not chaste (it interfered with the adultery)
    I have worshiped a false god (his name was Jehovah)

    Isn’t it convenient that some believers can now break their own laws and murder me?
    "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

  10. #9
    prcabr4christ's Avatar
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    it seems I left a few points out to prevent confusion...

    1. The law is very cold and harsh, but this is how God feels about sin, that it should be punished
    2. It doesn't mean that we should kill people for any sin commited, for we would all be dead, and what good what that be? Paul said in the book of Romans that the law is "a schoolmaster" or a guide to lead us to Christ....because "he who offends one area of the law is guilty of all"', so even Christ used the law to "convict" us....as I said, this is how God feels about sin, we see in Christ how God feels about sinners....Romans 5:8 "while we were stil sinners Christ died for us".
    3. As far as I'm concerned, I don't "cherry pick" which scriptures I use when I teach, my long teachings go through whole books or chapters to come to a conclusion in the context it was written....there are many teachers/pastoral folk that teach specific parts to get their point across, I would much rather use scripture as a whole, as it is really not available to private interpretation, unless it is revelatory in nature, it basically means what it says....many people try to get the bible to mean something different, but then it doesn't make sense to anyone, therefore they render the scripture they were trying to quote useless in their own context.

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    The founding fathers I believe based the constitution on Christian ideals, not Christian LAW, their is a huge difference. I am a Catholic people like to call it the religion of guilt, however if Jesus and God can forgive us of grievous sin, why cannot man??? As a Christian it is our duty to strive to be Christ like therefore if Jesus and God can forgive so can I, in fact it's my duty as a Christian to forgive, however you try to harm me or my family you'll get two to the chest and one to the head. Then I'll forgive you, if I wound you on accident, I will forgive you, if you rob my house I'll report to the authorities and forgive you. Our legal system is flawed greatly, however it's still the best on the planet. I don't want to get hanged because I go out with a woman whose not my wife for a cup of coffee.

  12. #11
    prcabr4christ's Avatar
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    I still think a bullet or a rope is cheaper than 30 years on death row....just trying to do my duty as an American to give ideas to help relieve our economical burdens lol

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    Not to start an argument in symantics but, The scriptures were written by ordinary men. Sure, the belief is that God inspired them, but knowing how God feels about something, I would imagine, is pretty tough as all my conversations with Him have been one sided. Sure I think He's had great influence in my life, but I'd never speak on behalf of God or think for one second that I know how He feels about one thing or another. I just read the Bible, take some good sound advice from the only 10 rules anyone needs to know and try to be a good person. I'm not really into the whole "kill all the criminals" bit. Sure, if I was called on jury duty to do so, I'd do it, but talking on a gun forum about the blatant and wanton killing of thousands of people seems a bit much. Especially considering that as far as I've been taught, God forgives all who repent in His name, and they shall be forgiven. Then what, should we let them out if they say they've made thier peace with God? The wisdom of God and the laws of man rarely go hand in hand even if they sound a whole lot alike. To clarify, I'm not against the death penalty, but I just don't think I should be making that call, that's all, unless of course there are 11 other people tasked with the same job.

    An aside... Does your duty as an American come before or after your duty to God? (actual question, not a dig, I'm interested in the discussion)

    Zhur

    **Edited for punctuation of "His" name and a question at the end**

  14. #13
    prcabr4christ's Avatar
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    order of importance...
    1. God
    2. Family
    3. Country

    also....read a couple posts back, I didn't say we had a duty to kill everyone, I said that the law is how God feels about sin, and what happened in the life and death of Christ is how God feels about sinners....I don't believe that just because we're free from sin through the death and resurrection of Christ means that God feels differently about sin....also, the original text reveals how the writers of scripture were given the words to write, it basically paints a picture of sails on a boat being pushed by the wind.....many may not know the story of the Apostle Paul, he was a killer and persecuter of Christians in the early church, but then again, he wrote most of the books in the New Testament.....we no longer live under law, but under grace.....for those who think that I might have the ludacris belief that I believe I'm "holier than thou", I would be priviledged, and am actually going to school to be a servant to any and all in need of healthcare (gonna be a nurse, maybe later on a PA), I doubt I would just be serving "religious" folk

  15. #14
    zhurdan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prcabr4christ View Post
    Think about this...20,000 murders happen every year in our country, how much money would we save if we just gave the perps what they deserve? Overcrowding in prisons....I got an idea on how to save some money
    I figured this audience would appreciate my thoughts
    Quote Originally Posted by prcabr4christ View Post
    I still think a bullet or a rope is cheaper than 30 years on death row....just trying to do my duty as an American to give ideas to help relieve our economical burdens lol
    (Emphasis in bold for clarity by me)

    In the first post, you mention an idea on how to save some money.
    In the second, you mention that you are trying to do your duty as an American.

    My apologies if I misconstrued those two statements to imply that killing them all would be good for the economy and part of your duty as an American to give ideas to help relieve our economical burdens.

    I did not intentionally try to misrepresent what you had said, but that is what I took from your two posts.

    How about taking a little technology and putting an explosive ring around their necks with a GPS device and putting these people to work in chain gangs doing to work that Americans don't want to do, a la helping to resolve the illegal alien problem. How about adding a small chip to childrens cellphone (as they all seem to be carrying them nowadays) and if a pedophile gets too close, he has about 30 seconds to clear out and call in to a monitoring station or BOOM. That way, they (the criminals) can produce more than CO2 for the country and their demise is in their own hands er um.. neck. Just a thought. If they want to offend again, their life is in their own hands. No one has to kill them, they'd kill themselves as I believe that most criminals will recidivate.

    Zhur

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    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Using religious "reasoning" that doesn't apply universally to Americans to determine speed and severity of judicial punishment seems at odds with the objectivity and rationality that is supposed to inform American justice. Our justice system already has a more than sufficient lack of objectivity.

    I, as an atheist, would certainly would not want to be dragged before a judge representing the Christian Taliban as described above. I would surely stand no chance of being granted the due process to which I am Constitutionally entitled regardless of my beliefs.
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    prcabr4christ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zhurdan View Post

    How about taking a little technology and putting an explosive ring around their necks with a GPS device and putting these people to work in chain gangs doing to work that Americans don't want to do, a la helping to resolve the illegal alien problem. How about adding a small chip to childrens cellphone (as they all seem to be carrying them nowadays) and if a pedophile gets too close, he has about 30 seconds to clear out and call in to a monitoring station or BOOM. That way, they (the criminals) can produce more than CO2 for the country and their demise is in their own hands er um.. neck. Just a thought. If they want to offend again, their life is in their own hands. No one has to kill them, they'd kill themselves as I believe that most criminals will recidivate.

    Zhur
    sounds like fantastic ideas to me.....I know work programs exist, and I know all those in prison won't fit into such programs, but sounds good for those who can, at least for a work day, play well with other.....as far as the chips in kids cellphones, not a bad idea, but if I ever have more kids, they can get a cellphone when they have a job like I did...unless I find it necessary for me to get a hold of them whenever I feel the urge, but even still....that would have to be a well behaved youngster, and they would have a limit on that cell

  18. #17
    prcabr4christ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    I, as an atheist, would certainly would not want to be dragged before a judge representing the Christian Taliban as described above. I would surely stand no chance of being granted the due process to which I am Constitutionally entitled regardless of my beliefs.
    I believe as a whole, the way our judicial system was founded, is the best alternative to killing everybody that blew their nose wrong...the 2 problems I have with the current judicial system I have are as follows in order of my own priority....
    1. divorces are centered around making the woman happy, therefore rendering the man almost unable to defend himself (child custody battles, I'm divorced, haven't been given the chance to see my kid in years as a stipulation in the court order said that if he was "sick", he didn't have to visit his dad, he's been sick for about 6 years)
    2. I believe in enforcing the death penalty, there's no reason people like Charlie Manson or Richard Allen Davis should be allowed to live, we're not going to "rehabilitate" these people, as they have no usefellness to society other than being a liability to spend our tax dollars on. I don't however believe in mobs going out and hunting these people, as everyone deserves due process of law. I believe those who can be "rehabilitated" should be allowed to do so.

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  20. #19
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    1. I am divorced from my first wife, but have custody of my daughter. It can be done if you're motivated enough. As a side note, I'll just observe that many Christian religions consider divorce a sin, and you'd also not be safe from the Christian Taliban.

    2. If you aren't willing to permit mob rule, as you say, then you must allow society to come to its own balance on punishment for crimes. Sometimes this means people will spend life in prison versus being executed, especially in a society (like ours) where it costs more money to execute someone than imprison them for life. Or a federalist system where some states (Texas) use the death penalty more freely than others (California).
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  21. #20
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    I agree that something can be done about the custody, I don't need a pity party, but while I was rodeoin for a living (still am though), I didn't make enough money to pay to fight it, I'm almost there now as I'm almost done with school...

    As far as divorce goes, I wouldn't be safe with the "Jewish taliban" for they are still waiting for the redeemer that was fortold in every Old Testament book, and as I'm identifiable with the "Christian taliban", I fall under the grace provided me by the life, death and resurrection of Christ, which I believe all who believe and recieve will enter into....

  22. #21
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Messianic fables are told throughout practically all cultures, and are not exclusive to the Middle Eastern "big three" of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It seems like there is a messianic impulse in lots of human beings, who look outward, rather than inward, for solutions to the problems of life.

    My wife is (culturally) Jewish, and so I have consequently hung out with a lot of Jews. My general impression is that American Jews, at least, are a bit more "live and let live" than most other religious people. Perhaps that's a consequence of Judaism being the senior Middle Eastern religion.
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  23. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Messianic fables are told throughout practically all cultures, and are not exclusive to the Middle Eastern "big three" of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It seems like there is a messianic impulse in lots of human beings, who look outward, rather than inward, for solutions to the problems of life.

    My wife is (culturally) Jewish, and so I have consequently hung out with a lot of Jews. My general impression is that American Jews, at least, are a bit more "live and let live" than most other religious people. Perhaps that's a consequence of Judaism being the senior Middle Eastern religion.
    I would agree that those (individuals or societys) in need or want of change need to do so from the inside out

  24. #23
    Old Padawan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prcabr4christ View Post
    1. The law is very cold and harsh, but this is how God feels about sin, that it should be punished
    Your God. Not mine.
    This is one of the beauties of living in America. The law doesn’t confine or kill me based on your superstitious beliefs of how “God feels about sin, that it should be punished”. I am free of religious persecution, which is basically what you are advocating.

    Imagine what it would be like if you were in a religion that differed from the state sponsored religion. Just to give a visual lets call the religion of state “The Church of England” and your group can be called The Puritans.
    Wouldn’t it be terrible to be persecuted by God fearing Christians concerned that you were not following their rules for the worship of God (after all God has VERY specific rules for worship and only one Christian belief is correct).
    I know this could never happen, after all both groups are Christians but imagine if your sect were persecuted so strongly that you had to leave. Perhaps you could start your own country and guarantee that could never happen again.

    There is no place in the law for your superstition!!
    Last edited by Old Padawan; 07-17-2008 at 12:34 PM.
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  25. #24
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    I said it's how God feels about sin....not sinners....if He didn't feel that way about sin there would be no "Messianic fairytales"....think of it this way, if you break the law and the judge let's you go (jury aside), does that mean he's a good judge? Absolutely not...because he's a good judge, he would sentence you in accordance with the laws set forth. As I said, I'm not advocating mob rule and people taking law into their own hands, passing up the judge and jury and going straight to the sentence, because we no longer live under law, we live under grace

  26. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by zhurdan View Post
    (Emphasis in bold for clarity by me)

    In the first post, you mention an idea on how to save some money.
    In the second, you mention that you are trying to do your duty as an American.

    My apologies if I misconstrued those two statements to imply that killing them all would be good for the economy and part of your duty as an American to give ideas to help relieve our economical burdens.
    Zhur
    After reading Padawan's post, and your response, I think you failed to answer the first part of my post quoted above. It sounds an awful lot like you are advocating mob rule and people taking law into their own hands. Per your own words....

    I got an idea on how to save some money
    I figured this audience would appreciate my thoughts
    Now, not trying to mince words here, but that pretty much spells it out that that is how YOU feel, not how God feels. Sounds a lot like what Padawan was getting at about the "state sponsored religion". Once one persons views are the dominating perspective, and they have the control to execute those views, it 'ain't no America no mo'!

    Living under Gods Grace is one thing, but God would never ask us to be judge jury and executioner because that is his job, well at least partially, judge anyways. We as humans have instated a few rules of our own, outside of God's law and that is where free will comes in. We have the free will to decide if we are going to follow Gods laws or Human laws or try and make a go at following both. Probably the best path in my opinion being that I won't have to answer to God until after I answer to mankind. Either way, saying we live under Grace is only half the equation. Better hope your math is better than your Biblical interpretations. hehehe

    Zhur

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