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  1. #21
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Messianic fables are told throughout practically all cultures, and are not exclusive to the Middle Eastern "big three" of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It seems like there is a messianic impulse in lots of human beings, who look outward, rather than inward, for solutions to the problems of life.

    My wife is (culturally) Jewish, and so I have consequently hung out with a lot of Jews. My general impression is that American Jews, at least, are a bit more "live and let live" than most other religious people. Perhaps that's a consequence of Judaism being the senior Middle Eastern religion.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Messianic fables are told throughout practically all cultures, and are not exclusive to the Middle Eastern "big three" of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It seems like there is a messianic impulse in lots of human beings, who look outward, rather than inward, for solutions to the problems of life.

    My wife is (culturally) Jewish, and so I have consequently hung out with a lot of Jews. My general impression is that American Jews, at least, are a bit more "live and let live" than most other religious people. Perhaps that's a consequence of Judaism being the senior Middle Eastern religion.
    I would agree that those (individuals or societys) in need or want of change need to do so from the inside out

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by prcabr4christ View Post
    1. The law is very cold and harsh, but this is how God feels about sin, that it should be punished
    Your God. Not mine.
    This is one of the beauties of living in America. The law doesn’t confine or kill me based on your superstitious beliefs of how “God feels about sin, that it should be punished”. I am free of religious persecution, which is basically what you are advocating.

    Imagine what it would be like if you were in a religion that differed from the state sponsored religion. Just to give a visual lets call the religion of state “The Church of England” and your group can be called The Puritans.
    Wouldn’t it be terrible to be persecuted by God fearing Christians concerned that you were not following their rules for the worship of God (after all God has VERY specific rules for worship and only one Christian belief is correct).
    I know this could never happen, after all both groups are Christians but imagine if your sect were persecuted so strongly that you had to leave. Perhaps you could start your own country and guarantee that could never happen again.

    There is no place in the law for your superstition!!
    Last edited by Old Padawan; 07-17-2008 at 12:34 PM.
    "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

  4. #24
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    I said it's how God feels about sin....not sinners....if He didn't feel that way about sin there would be no "Messianic fairytales"....think of it this way, if you break the law and the judge let's you go (jury aside), does that mean he's a good judge? Absolutely not...because he's a good judge, he would sentence you in accordance with the laws set forth. As I said, I'm not advocating mob rule and people taking law into their own hands, passing up the judge and jury and going straight to the sentence, because we no longer live under law, we live under grace

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by zhurdan View Post
    (Emphasis in bold for clarity by me)

    In the first post, you mention an idea on how to save some money.
    In the second, you mention that you are trying to do your duty as an American.

    My apologies if I misconstrued those two statements to imply that killing them all would be good for the economy and part of your duty as an American to give ideas to help relieve our economical burdens.
    Zhur
    After reading Padawan's post, and your response, I think you failed to answer the first part of my post quoted above. It sounds an awful lot like you are advocating mob rule and people taking law into their own hands. Per your own words....

    I got an idea on how to save some money
    I figured this audience would appreciate my thoughts
    Now, not trying to mince words here, but that pretty much spells it out that that is how YOU feel, not how God feels. Sounds a lot like what Padawan was getting at about the "state sponsored religion". Once one persons views are the dominating perspective, and they have the control to execute those views, it 'ain't no America no mo'!

    Living under Gods Grace is one thing, but God would never ask us to be judge jury and executioner because that is his job, well at least partially, judge anyways. We as humans have instated a few rules of our own, outside of God's law and that is where free will comes in. We have the free will to decide if we are going to follow Gods laws or Human laws or try and make a go at following both. Probably the best path in my opinion being that I won't have to answer to God until after I answer to mankind. Either way, saying we live under Grace is only half the equation. Better hope your math is better than your Biblical interpretations. hehehe

    Zhur

  6. #26
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    order of importance...
    1. God
    2. Family
    3. Country
    This boggles my mind why somebody would put God who's existence can't be proven (or disproven, I'll give you that) ahead of family. To each his own but human experience rules in my world.

  7. #27
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prcabr4christ View Post
    ...if He didn't feel that way about sin there would be no "Messianic fairytales"...
    I think the reason for messianic fables is the same reason we see a similar fervor for Senator Obama right now. Many people are basically lazy and irresponsible. When things go badly, they do not want to put the effort into fixing them on their own. Instead, they want someone (or something) else to swoop in and rescue them. In one case they pray to some deity whose existence is shaky at the very best, and in the other they vote for a politician who promises to bring some vague "change." Both are much easier than doing the hard work.

    if you break the law and the judge let's you go (jury aside), does that mean he's a good judge? Absolutely not...
    It depends. If he is following the law as decided by the people, then yes, he is a good judge. Let's say I break one of the "laws" you listed above, as determined by the Christian Taliban. Yet the thing I have done is not a crime as determined by my overall community, so the judge frees me. Is he a good judge? By the standards of the community in which we live - and "living in grace" or not - yes.

    Irrational, subjective superstitions have no place in the law. Only objective, rational analysis of the situation here on planet Earth does.
    Last edited by Mike Barham; 07-18-2008 at 10:51 AM.
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  8. #28
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  9. #29
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    Has anyone else noticed the similarity between devout Christians (by devout I mean those who would rank god above all including family and country) and democrats?

    First they want you to surrender yourself to someone who knows whatís best for you and relieve you of the toils of self-responsibility.
    Second when you ask a difficult question, they either ignore it or answer it with platitudes. Donít question gods plan. Donít question Obamas plan. Just trust that both have one and they know whatís good for you.

    In a set of laws that are written and enforced by those following a superstition, it is impossible for those that donít believe in the same thing to be treated fairly. I donít believe in your god and yet I am still to be punished for damning and striking my drunken father?
    I donít believe in your god and in a land of the truly free, people should not be bound to a godís laws/rules/judgment.
    History has shown that when Christianity has too much power that the men wielding that power abuse it. It should be noted the same is true with all religions that have power over man.

    Keep superstitious beliefs out of our laws.
    "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Padawan View Post
    Has anyone else noticed the similarity between devout Christians (by devout I mean those who would rank god above all including family and country) and democrats?
    To me it seems like the Neo-conservatives seem to be a more perfect match. They're willing to sacrifice both our economic and physical security (Country), as well as the lives of our citizens (Family) to achieve some kind of, to quote the Blues Brothers, mission from God.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Many people are basically lazy and irresponsible. When things go badly, they do not want to put the effort into fixing them on their own. Instead, they want someone (or something) else to swoop in and rescue them. In one case they pray to some deity whose existence is shaky at the very best, and in the other they vote for a politician who promises to bring some vague "change." Both are much easier than doing the hard work.



    It depends. If he is following the law as decided by the people, then yes, he is a good judge. Let's say I break one of the "laws" you listed above, as determined by the Christian Taliban. Yet the thing I have done is not a crime as determined by my overall community, so the judge frees me. Is he a good judge?
    If you don't help help yourself, you have no hope.....

    As far as laws go, those "laws" included rape and murder, so now, jury aside, if the judge frees you, is he a "good" judge?

  12. #32
    Mike Barham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prcabr4christ View Post
    As far as laws go, those "laws" included rape and murder, so now, jury aside, if the judge frees you, is he a "good" judge?
    Laws are made by men, not imaginary supernatural beings. The community of men in which I live determines the laws. If the judge metes out punishment according to those laws, he is deemed a good judge by the community, because he is acting in accordance with the wishes of the community he serves.

    Do I think some laws are immoral? Sure. But I'd not condemn a judge for enforcing them while they are on the books.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Padawan View Post
    Has anyone else noticed the similarity between devout Christians (by devout I mean those who would rank god above all including family and country) and democrats?

    First they want you to surrender yourself to someone who knows what’s best for you and relieve you of the toils of self-responsibility.
    Second when you ask a difficult question, they either ignore it or answer it with platitudes. Don’t question gods plan. Don’t question Obamas plan. Just trust that both have one and they know what’s good for you.

    In a set of laws that are written and enforced by those following a superstition, it is impossible for those that don’t believe in the same thing to be treated fairly. I don’t believe in your god and yet I am still to be punished for damning and striking my drunken father?
    I don’t believe in your god and in a land of the truly free, people should not be bound to a god’s laws/rules/judgment.
    History has shown that when Christianity has too much power that the men wielding that power abuse it. It should be noted the same is true with all religions that have power over man.

    Keep superstitious beliefs out of our laws.
    CLAP TRAP. Let me correct your errors here OP.

    Has anyone else noticed the similarity between devout Christians (by devout I mean those who would rank god above all including family and country) and conservatives?
    First they want you to surrender yourself to someone who knows what’s best for you and relieve you of the toils of self-responsibility.
    Second when you ask a difficult question, they either ignore it or answer it with platitudes. Don’t question gods plan. Don’t question McCain's plan. Just trust that both have one and they know what’s good for you

    In a set of laws that are written and enforced by those following a superstition, it is impossible for those that don’t believe in the same thing to be treated fairly. I don’t believe in your god and yet I am still to be punished for damning and striking my drunken father?
    I don’t believe in your god and in a land of the truly free, people should not be bound to a god’s laws/rules/judgment.
    History has shown that when Christianity (ANYTHING) has too much power that the men wielding that power abuse it. It should be noted the same is true with all religions that have power over man.

    Keep superstitious beliefs out of our laws

    Please answer for me? WHO is it (political party wise) that the "Religeous Right" (or devout as i think you called them) supports?

    Sorry, You can't have it both ways. You can't say "keep YOUR superstitions out of our laws, then supersticiously use those "ideals" you are...ridiculing... to support YOUR beliefs.

    How about just keeping religion out of politics altogether? Sounds great. Any idea how?
    Last edited by niadhf; 07-31-2008 at 10:29 PM.

  14. #34
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    TOF
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    I keep watching and waiting but none of you seem to want to give up the secret of what caliber rock David used to slay Goliath.



    From what I have read though, I expect some of us may be living in the Tropics before to many years.

    Enjoy

  15. #35
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    First of all, congratulations on the first effective use of the phrase "Clap-Trap" in my presence.

    I shall counter with a resounding POPPYCOCK.

    I thought it to be generally accepted (and recent history shows) that Liberals believe that by creating laws, they can protect us from ourselves and all around us. It doesnít seem to matter that these laws restrict our individual liberties.

    Conservatives however believe in individual rights and liberties.

    From todayís Patriot Post:
    Essentially, conservatives, as the root word implies, strive to conserve the principles outlined in our Constitution, and our vision for America requires robust support for individual liberty, the restoration of constitutional limits on government and the judiciary, and the promotion of free enterprise, national defense and traditional Judeo-Christian Values.
    On the other hand, the Left one, liberals, as the root word implies, aspire to liberate the nation from its founding tenets by promoting a ďLiving Constitution,Ē as a primary tool for constricting individual liberty, expanding the power of government, regulating all manner of enterprise, gutting national defense and advocating relativism.

    My comment re self-considered and media appointed President Elect Obama was his message of change. He has no real plan for the change, but he promises he will be the facilitator of said change. This message is given despite his voting record and earmarks taken showing him to be a Liberal Democrat similar to those surrounding him and preceding him.
    I guess we are to believe if elected he will change and then he will change politics. We can trust him, he has after all kept all of his campaign promises to dateÖ Hasnít he?

    McCain is different. I will not vote for him. He has trampled my first amendment rights and will never have my support. He is not however a Conservative Republican. He is not running on a platform of ďchangeĒ. He does not do business as usual. You canít count on him to act as either a liberal or a conservative.

    I absolutely agree that any entity holding to much power will abuse it. Considering someone espousing Christian rules and how they should be applied to our courts/justice system started the thread, the Christian comment was appropriate.
    "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOF View Post


    I keep watching and waiting but none of you seem to want to give up the secret of what caliber rock David used to slay Goliath.



    From what I have read though, I expect some of us may be living in the Tropics before to many years.

    Enjoy
    Donít be silly; everyone knows it not the caliber of the rock that matters, but the velocityÖ
    "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

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