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  1. #76
    submoa is offline Member
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    Its all about the benjamins

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    The West learned, between 1933 and 1945 (and also, in another case, between 1919 and quite recently), that the only way to stop deadly radicals is to stand up and fight them, either in a shooting war or with powerful economics.
    Quote Originally Posted by SigZagger View Post
    We've been down this rode before, 60 plus years ago: Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan...sound familiar?
    Yes... it does sound familiar.

    Prescott Bush, Bush Senior’s father, extended credit to Adolph Hitler and supplied him with raw materials during Word War II. The U. S. seized his assets under the Trading with the Enemy Act, but grandfather Bush found other ways to replenish the family coffers.

    History repeats...

    Bush Senior struck it rich in oil and in the defense industry. Mahfouz (bin Laden's father in law), Prince Bandar and Prince Sultan (Bandar’s father) were also heavily invested in the defense industry through their holdings in the Carlyle Group, where Bush Senior served on the board of directors. Founded in 1987 as a private investment group with strong connections to the Republican Party establishment, Carlyle increased its original investment of $130 million to $900 million when it went public in 2001.

    In recent years, Carlyle has been successful both at raising and making money. It has raised $14 billion in the last five years or so, and its annual rate of return has been 36 percent. Its 550 investors consist of institutions and wealthy individuals from around the world including, until shortly after September 2001, members of the bin Laden family of Saudi Arabia. The family — which has publicly disavowed links with Osama bin Laden — had been an investor since 1995.

    As the eleventh largest US defence contractor, Carlyle is involved in nearly every aspect of military production, including making the big guns used on US naval destroyers, the Bradley Fighting Vehicle used by US forces during the Gulf War and parts used in most commercial and military aircraft. United Defense has joint ventures in Saudi Arabia and Turkey, two of the United States’ closest military allies in the Middle East.

    It’s passing strange that even as the hijacked planes smashed into the World Trade Center, the Carlyle Group was holding its annual investor conference. Shafig Bin Laden, brother of Osama Bin Laden, attended.

    Somehow people miss out on the irony of the financial connection between Bush and Bin Laden families and Dubya's efforts to prosecute Osama.

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  3. #77
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    ...But when was the last time you went up to a group of skinheads and debated the lack of merits of their beliefs?
    "Debating" with skinheads would be both futile and dangerous. They only understand force. Facing down skinheads, however, is effective and has worked pretty well.

    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    If the KKK were holding a rally in your town, would you be the first one to show up to protest?
    Yes! Been there, done that. Didn't get hurt.

    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    Lets take the ideology out of the equation and think of terrorists as the criminal gangs that they are. How effective have we been in not tolerating urban gangs like the Crips and Bloods? Last I heard, they have been around for over 30 years with the police working against them. Do you think people who live in neighborhoods where these thugs prowl are afraid of "speaking the truth about their bigotry and murderous nastiness," in open court? Does everyone that lives in a Crip neighborhood belong to a gang? Are gang members even a majority in these neighborhoods? Now what if that neighborhood was a small town in Iran?
    Part of the difficulty in dealing with Crips, Bloods, and the likeóand Shiite and Sunni militias tooóis the disparity in armament.
    As long as the city governments of the US believe that citizen disarmament brings peace, the Crips and Bloods will be on the winning side.
    In places where the neighborhood has effectively fought back, the Crips and Bloods have been losing.
    I'd bet the same is true in Iraq, with Kurdistan being my proof-point.

  4. #78
    john doe. is offline Banned
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    J89Jeeper: I must say, for you to speak out like this is a very brave thing to do and I admire your courage to do so. It would be like a black man knowingly walking into a KKK meeting.

    I hope you can see where we are coming from. All weíve seen for years is death and destruction by one group of people who have the commonality of being Muslims and doing these awful things in the name of Islam. 911 is a terrible time in our history and to hear about others cheering when the towers fell gets me pretty pissed off.

    Iíve only meet a few people whom Iíve assumed to be Muslim (they were Arabic and African). I had good talks with them and enjoyed the conversation. Iíve yet to meet a Muslim like you who is very different than what weíve come to know as a Muslim. You seem to be more of a redneck Muslim with the ink, beer, and pork. No insult intended here. You sound like you may be a fun guy to hang around.

    We read all the time that Islam is a peaceful religion and then read on the same page about the suicide bombings and beheadings done by Muslims in the name of Islam. For example. I read an article just today that Iíll post on this subject. I also read a good article relating this to Nazi Germany that you may find interesting.

    How do people like you change the hearts of the extremist? If people like you do not stand up and say that the extremists are wrong then you will find that you will some day be in the minority or dead by the hand of those who preach from the same book.

    I donít hate Muslims. I hate those who murder under the name of Islam. Though I think your religion is wrong, I respect your right to practice it as long as it does not infringe on my right to practice mine. But hear lies the problem- many of the Islam faith do not want me to have that right and say, demand, that I either convert or die. Well, as a Christian, I will die for Christ as He died for me.

    Iím sure you may have some pretty bad views of me based on my postings and I can understand that if I tried to look at it from your side. Iím very open about my Christianity and how I feel about those who want to deny me of my right to practice it. All I ask is that you try to see it from our side and I think you have. Overall, we (all religions) just want to be left alone and live in peace, raise our families, drink a beer or two or three or..., have a good pork dinner on the grill, lie about the monster fish we caught and shoot our guns.
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Fox News

    Report: Non-Muslims Deserve to Be Punished

    Tuesday, April 01, 2008


    A report posted on Islam Watch, a site run by Muslims who oppose intolerant teachings and hatred for unbelievers, exposes a prominent Islamic cleric and lawyer who support extreme punishment for non-Muslims ó including killing and rape.

    A question-and-answer session with Imam Abdul Makin in an East London mosque asks why Allah would tell Muslims to kill and rape innocent non-Muslims, including their wives and daughters, according to Islam Watch.

    "Because non-Muslims are never innocent, they are guilty of denying Allah and his prophet," the Imam says, according to the report. "If you don't believe me, here is the legal authority, the top Muslim lawyer of Britain."

    The lawyer, Anjem Choudary, backs up the Imam's position, saying that all Muslims are innocent.

    "You are innocent if you are a Muslim," Choudary tells the BBC. "Then you are innocent in the eyes of God. If you are not a Muslim, then you are guilty of not believing in God."

    Choudary said he would not condemn a Muslim for any action.

    "As a Muslim, I must support my Muslim brothers and sisters," Choudary said. "I must have hatred to everything that is not Muslim."
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A German's point of view on Islam.

    A man whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.

    'Very few people were true Nazis 'he said,' but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

    We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectra of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam. The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history.

    It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. The hard quantifiable fact is that the 'peaceful majority', the 'silent majority', is cowed and extraneous.

    Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

    China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.

    The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.

    And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?

    History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:

    Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun. Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghanis, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.

    As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts; the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

  5. #79
    P89Jeeper is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnoisaw View Post
    J89Jeeper: I must say, for you to speak out like this is a very brave thing to do and I admire your courage to do so. It would be like a black man knowingly walking into a KKK meeting.

    I hope you can see where we are coming from. All we’ve seen for years is death and destruction by one group of people who have the commonality of being Muslims and doing these awful things in the name of Islam. 911 is a terrible time in our history and to hear about others cheering when the towers fell gets me pretty pissed off.

    I’ve only meet a few people whom I’ve assumed to be Muslim (they were Arabic and African). I had good talks with them and enjoyed the conversation. I’ve yet to meet a Muslim like you who is very different than what we’ve come to know as a Muslim. You seem to be more of a redneck Muslim with the ink, beer, and pork. No insult intended here. You sound like you may be a fun guy to hang around.

    We read all the time that Islam is a peaceful religion and then read on the same page about the suicide bombings and beheadings done by Muslims in the name of Islam. For example. I read an article just today that I’ll post on this subject. I also read a good article relating this to Nazi Germany that you may find interesting.

    How do people like you change the hearts of the extremist? If people like you do not stand up and say that the extremists are wrong then you will find that you will some day be in the minority or dead by the hand of those who preach from the same book.

    I don’t hate Muslims. I hate those who murder under the name of Islam. Though I think your religion is wrong, I respect your right to practice it as long as it does not infringe on my right to practice mine. But hear lies the problem- many of the Islam faith do not want me to have that right and say, demand, that I either convert or die. Well, as a Christian, I will die for Christ as He died for me.

    I’m sure you may have some pretty bad views of me based on my postings and I can understand that if I tried to look at it from your side. I’m very open about my Christianity and how I feel about those who want to deny me of my right to practice it. All I ask is that you try to see it from our side and I think you have. Overall, we (all religions) just want to be left alone and live in peace, raise our families, drink a beer or two or three or..., have a good pork dinner on the grill, lie about the monster fish we caught and shoot our guns.
    I do understand where you are coming from. I didn't like seeing all of those people cheering when the Towers came down. I am American and it hit me just as it hit you.

    Thanks, I take that as a compliment. I do see my self as a redneck as I am Texan, love guns, beer, and rock crawling in my Jeep.

    As far as standing up to the extremist, what can I do but educate the ones around me about the extremist. I believe that the extremist them selves are a lost cause and need to be dealt with in that manner. I mean when I finish school and have time to take action I will do what I can. But it really needs to take place in those countries. Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the others. The people need to have another revolution and get the current people that are in power out and start over. It isn't working with Iraq because WE went in there and tried to change things, but if it was the people there, I believe it would have been different. Don't get me wrong, I am glad that Sadam is out of power because of everything that he has done to the family that I have in Iran, but I believe for a change of power to help, it needs to be the people, not another country.

    I also hate the ones that murder under the Islam faith. It makes us look bad. And you have all the right to believe that my religion is wrong, thanks to where we live, and I don't look at you any different for thinking that way. And as far as Christ goes, we believe in him also. The only difference is that we see him as a prophet and not God or God's son. So he also died for my sins.

    As I said in the paragraph above, I don't have any bad views of you at all. I believe anyone can think what they want, we are all humans and we have our own mind. And I agree with you, as soon as someone tells me that I can't practice my religion the way that I want to would get up in arms also. I do see it from yalls side, I just get a little angry when on the 6 or 7 forums that I am on, I always see someone bashing all the Islamic people, not the extremist, and no one backs up the majority, so I had to chime in. It just happened to be on the top of the list on the homepage, and I wasn't expecting it.

    If any of yall are ever in the Dallas area, send me a PM, lets have a beer and see for yourself.

  6. #80
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    Steve M1911A1 is offline Senior Member
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    J89Jeeper:
    I'll chime in with my acceptance, and my pleasure to have read your essays.
    Although the concept of dhimmi is still with us, as characterized by the news story in Tony's post, I'm happy to see that you repudiate it.
    I wish only that there were many more Muslims like you.
    If you're ever going to be in Northwest Washington State, let me know. We live in a place that isn't easy to get to, but it's so beautiful that it's worth the effort. And the beer is cold. Come see.

  7. #81
    john doe. is offline Banned
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    Hey, the invite for Northwestern Montana stands open too. Glacier National Park is my playground. If you don't feel comfortable in an area that's mostly full of whites I'll invite one of our couples friends. She's black (Her husband calls her cracker black cause she’s only black by the color of her skin) and he's Iraqi decent (his dad escaped Sadam's wrath). Since your Iranian, people around here will probably think your American Indian and you'll fit right in. We’d be one multicultural sight that’s for sure.

  8. #82
    P89Jeeper is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks yall. Yea, around here most people think I am hispanic.

  9. #83
    john doe. is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by P89Jeeper View Post
    Thanks yall. Yea, around here most people think I am hispanic.
    In these times I don't think that would be a bad thing especially living in Texas. At least you can blend in instead of standout. My grandfather-in-law is Mexican and in the summer he would turn very dark if he was in the sun too long and then people thought he was black. He hated that.

  10. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by P89Jeeper View Post
    Have you not been reading what we were talking about? Did you just chime in with just reading of the posts? WE aren't the present day enemy, it's the extremist. What about John Allen Muhammad? He wasn't a Muslim his whole life, he converted and twisted the faith. You can't put the majority of a people into a group and say they are the present day enemy. What do you want to do? Do you want to put every practicing Muslim in a Camp like they did the Japanese after they bombed Pearl Harbor? What did that do? That didn't stop anything because the majority of the people they locked up were hard working people just trying to live the American dream. What do you think we should do?
    You are reading what YOU want to hear in my post. The enemy of the world today, in 2008 is the group of fighters calling themselves muslims. Of course not all muslims are what you call extremists, as all Germans were not Nazi's. But, all the average American knows about the muslim faith is what they see on media reports. Hell, I remember the Black muslims of the 60's, burning cities and killing cops. Fast forward and now, a group of men fly commercial jet airplanes into civilian buildings, etc. Not to mention the military targets attacked before 9-11. You get upset about how the free world reacts to the muslims, well you should. Until we as a nation start seeing something positive it won't change. In fact, why don't you enlighten us to the positives of the muslim faith.

  11. #85
    submoa is offline Member
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    P89Jeeper:

    I'm glad to see that you have been able to open some folks up to the idea that not all muslims fit the stereotype seen in movies and Al Jazeera.

    Having been to Bosnia and Turkey, the people I met were very european, few if any wore the hijab, and most, like yourself, are ordinary people leading secular lifestyles while being of muslim faith.

    Given the reactions I've seen here, I can only imagine what would happen if some of these people ever met my blue-eyed blonde Circassian wife.

    Stay strong and shoot straight.

  12. #86
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    I just spent a year in Afghanistan. I know I keep harping on this, but the overwhelming majority of local people I met there - and I mean in the hundreds - were just regular folks trying to get by in a tough situation. They are more like us than they are different. They want mostly the same things we do: safety, some wealth, a good standard of living, seeing their kids become successful, seeing their country do well, etc.

    Even if a million radicalized Muslims really do want to kill every Jew/Christian/infidel, they are clearly not acting on that desire or we'd have a much larger terrorism problem than we do. And even if they were acting on it...we're somewhat at a loss of how to punish them without also punishing the 99% of Muslims who are just plain folk.

    I know everyone likes to say "we need to take the gloves off" and such, but no one ever explains what that actually means in terms of a concrete military or law enforcement strategy.
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    All opinions, particularly those involving politics and Glocks, are mine and not Galco's.

  13. #87
    P89Jeeper is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks submoa as you also were helping with opening up some of the peoples eyes.

    Mike, thanks for telling everyone about what is going on over there and not everyone is a bad Muslim.

    Sig, I am sure if you read some of my other posts you will see some of the positives of the Islamic faith.

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