I'm sure that if this was going on... People would lump.
Last edited by js; 04-01-2008 at 12:55 AM.
"bing bang boom! hair out...hamburger time" - William Murderface
Well, after talking to the few of yall that I have tonight, I do have to retract my calling yall stupid and ignorant. I just got a little heated when I came here to talk and read about one of my loves, guns, and saw that post as the first one. I can tell just by the few posts that yall are educated, but just a little misinformed.
Christian Identity has been associated with terrorist Eric Robert Rudolph, who carried out a series of bombings across the southern United States, which killed three people and injured at least 150 others, because he violently opposed abortion and homosexuality as contrary to Christian doctrine. His mother spent time with Nord Davis, a Christian Identity ideologue who wrote propaganda claiming that the world was controlled by Jews, and which advocated killing gays and those who engaged in mixed-race relationships. Rudolph's sister-in-law claimed that he was a member of the sect, but Rudolph claims to have only been a member of a Christian Identity church for six months because he was dating the daughter of Identity Pastor Dan Gayman, and wrote "I was born a Catholic, and with forgiveness I hope to die one." Idaho State University sociology professor James A. Aho said, "I would prefer to say that Rudolph is a religiously inspired terrorist, because most mainstream Christians consider Christian Identity to be a heresy."
Army of God
In 2001, at the height of the United States anthrax scare, more than 170 abortion clinics and doctors offices in 14 states received letters containing white powder and the message "You have been exposed to anthrax. We are going to kill all of you. Army of God, Virginia DARE Chapter." In December 2003 Clayton Waagner was convicted for these attacks. Waagner had entered the home of antiabortion militant Neal Horsley, tied him up and held him at gunpoint, and then made a taped confession. Ann Glazier, director of clinic security at the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, said that during the trial Waagner had "repeatedly bragged that he had been the most wanted man in America and that he was a terrorist. It was unbelievable." Salon magazine reported that whilst the press had generally called Waagner a terrorist, they "studiously avoid use of the word 'Christian'". Chip Berlet, senior analyst at Political Research Associates, said "If Waagner had been a self-identified Muslim terrorist instead of a Christian terrorist, he'd have been lynched by now...But if it's fair to say if we can see the religious motivations in the Taliban, we ought to be able to see them in Waagner or Eric Rudolph."
In 1999, a member of the neo-Nazi organization, Buford O. Furrow Jr., confessed to FBI in the killing of a fill-in mail carrier, and the wounding of five other people in a Jewish community center. Aryan Nations followers admire Adolf Hitler and claim that minority group members are "mud people" and spawns of Satan. Authorities quoted Furrow as saying he wanted his act to be "a wake-up call to America to kill Jews." Furrow had also once told police that he often fantasized about suicide, while neighbors, associates, and court records stated that Furrow had a long history of mental illness and had interests in white supremacist religion and paramilitary. Furrow who was an officer of the internal security force of the Aryan Nations reportedly stockpiled weapons and ammunition, abused his wife, and once daydreamed about shooting people at random in a shopping mall near Seattle. Less than an hour after opening fire at the Jewish community center and wounding three little boys and two female workers, Furrow gunned down Joseph Ileto, a U.S. postal worker. Furrow reportedly told investigators he considered killing the mail carrier a "good opportunity" because Ileto was nonwhite and worked for the federal government. Furrow was reportedly second husband to Debbie Mathews, the widow of Robert J. Mathews, domestic terrorist who died in a shootout with Federal authorities in 1994 and the founder of a U.S. neo-Nazi group called the Order which was involved in a campaign of assassinations, bombings and robberies. The Order was supposedly broken apart by arrests, internal dissent and killings; however, some members vowed to strike at targets in small groups or alone, committing violent acts against Jews, blacks, homosexuals or abortion providers thereby earning membership in a loose-knit fraternity of racists who call themselves priests, the Phineas Priesthood. Richard Kelly Hoskins, author of many books about race and banking, one of which was found in Furrow's van, wrote, "As the kamikaze is to the Japanese, as the Shiite is to Islam, as the Zionist is to the Jew, so the Phineas Priest is to Christiandom." Interviewed from his home in Lynchburg, Va., Mr. Hoskins said the book found in Furrow's possession, "War Cycles/Peace Cycles," was about "the history of usury," including what he called "the traditional Jewish presence in banking," and wrote on his Web page that the book explains "the necessity for assassination of national leaders." For the August 1999 shootings in which five people were wounded and one man killed, Furrow received two life sentences plus 110 years in prison.
But, you have to understand... we are bombarded by information about radicals who have expressed their intentions. On Sept 11th, 2001 they made good on their promise and continue to express their intentions to do more harm. They proved that they can follow through with their intentions. It's unfortunate that muslims like yourself are caught in the middle and I admit...I profile. I just don't who is "old school" or "new school" in their beliefs. Of course, if a tattooed, beer drinking, pork chop eating muslim walked up to me I think I'd be ok.
And, I've only met 2 Muslims in my life... both were not good impressions. First, older man who refused to shake my hand due to my beliefs and the other was a girl that I dated a couple of years ago... her family insisted that she stop seeing me... because again, my beliefs differed from theirs. She was "new school", they, her parents...and grandmother, were "old school".
Last edited by js; 04-01-2008 at 01:20 AM.
"bing bang boom! hair out...hamburger time" - William Murderface
The parallel you're trying to draw is ineffective.
Radical Christians such as the sects you described are infinitely-small minorities, and definitely not tolerated in our society.
Further, nobody is afraid of standing up to them, or of speaking the truth about their bigotry and murderous nastiness.
On the other hand, J89Jeeper truthfully states that moderate muslims, the vast majority in Islam, are scared to death of standing up to the relatively larger group of radicals among them.
The West learned, between 1933 and 1945 (and also, in another case, between 1919 and quite recently), that the only way to stop deadly radicals is to stand up and fight them, either in a shooting war or with powerful economics.
Islam has not yet learned that lesson. We are hoping that they do eventually learn it, and soon.
Its unfortunate, but as a culture we have a long sad history of dehumanizing people: Black slavery, Chinese railroads, Japanese internment, Mexican illegal immigration. Now moslems and terrorism. Dehumanizing people may make it easier to tolerate if not outright support activities such as the Patriot Act, waterboarding and rendition. I'd like to change that and encourage you to deal with people based on their individual merits (and waterboard all criminals... jk).
Truth be told, its easy to speak your mind anonymously on an Internet forum. But when was the last time you went up to a group of skinheads and debated the lack of merits of their beliefs? If the KKK were holding a rally in your town, would you be the first one to show up to protest? Even if the next person showed up in less than a minute, that would be one long minute. The average person is not Billy Jack.
Lets take the ideology out of the equation and think of terrorists as the criminal gangs that they are. How effective have we been in not tolerating urban gangs like the Crips and Bloods? Last I heard, they have been around for over 30 years with the police working against them. Do you think people who live in neighborhoods where these thugs prowl are afraid of "speaking the truth about their bigotry and murderous nastiness," in open court? Does everyone that lives in a Crip neighborhood belong to a gang? Are gang members even a majority in these neighborhoods? Now what if that neighborhood was a small town in Iran?
This "religion" point can be argued, discussed, hashed over forever. Let's just say they are the present day enemy. Their assignment, task, goal is to kill anyone who does not believe in their way of thinking. We are in the fight, so we have to defend our way of thinking and kill them before they are cruising our streets firing RPG's in through our dining room window while we eat with our family. It's the free world vs. the unfree world. We've been down this rode before, 60 plus years ago: Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan...sound familiar? Different time, different uniforms. It's not complicated or difficult, with the exception this enemy is literally all over the world and starting to become US home grown.
Prescott Bush, Bush Senior’s father, extended credit to Adolph Hitler and supplied him with raw materials during Word War II. The U. S. seized his assets under the Trading with the Enemy Act, but grandfather Bush found other ways to replenish the family coffers.
Bush Senior struck it rich in oil and in the defense industry. Mahfouz (bin Laden's father in law), Prince Bandar and Prince Sultan (Bandar’s father) were also heavily invested in the defense industry through their holdings in the Carlyle Group, where Bush Senior served on the board of directors. Founded in 1987 as a private investment group with strong connections to the Republican Party establishment, Carlyle increased its original investment of $130 million to $900 million when it went public in 2001.
In recent years, Carlyle has been successful both at raising and making money. It has raised $14 billion in the last five years or so, and its annual rate of return has been 36 percent. Its 550 investors consist of institutions and wealthy individuals from around the world including, until shortly after September 2001, members of the bin Laden family of Saudi Arabia. The family — which has publicly disavowed links with Osama bin Laden — had been an investor since 1995.
As the eleventh largest US defence contractor, Carlyle is involved in nearly every aspect of military production, including making the big guns used on US naval destroyers, the Bradley Fighting Vehicle used by US forces during the Gulf War and parts used in most commercial and military aircraft. United Defense has joint ventures in Saudi Arabia and Turkey, two of the United States’ closest military allies in the Middle East.
It’s passing strange that even as the hijacked planes smashed into the World Trade Center, the Carlyle Group was holding its annual investor conference. Shafig Bin Laden, brother of Osama Bin Laden, attended.
Somehow people miss out on the irony of the financial connection between Bush and Bin Laden families and Dubya's efforts to prosecute Osama.
As long as the city governments of the US believe that citizen disarmament brings peace, the Crips and Bloods will be on the winning side.
In places where the neighborhood has effectively fought back, the Crips and Bloods have been losing.
I'd bet the same is true in Iraq, with Kurdistan being my proof-point.
J89Jeeper: I must say, for you to speak out like this is a very brave thing to do and I admire your courage to do so. It would be like a black man knowingly walking into a KKK meeting.
I hope you can see where we are coming from. All weíve seen for years is death and destruction by one group of people who have the commonality of being Muslims and doing these awful things in the name of Islam. 911 is a terrible time in our history and to hear about others cheering when the towers fell gets me pretty pissed off.
Iíve only meet a few people whom Iíve assumed to be Muslim (they were Arabic and African). I had good talks with them and enjoyed the conversation. Iíve yet to meet a Muslim like you who is very different than what weíve come to know as a Muslim. You seem to be more of a redneck Muslim with the ink, beer, and pork. No insult intended here. You sound like you may be a fun guy to hang around.
We read all the time that Islam is a peaceful religion and then read on the same page about the suicide bombings and beheadings done by Muslims in the name of Islam. For example. I read an article just today that Iíll post on this subject. I also read a good article relating this to Nazi Germany that you may find interesting.
How do people like you change the hearts of the extremist? If people like you do not stand up and say that the extremists are wrong then you will find that you will some day be in the minority or dead by the hand of those who preach from the same book.
I donít hate Muslims. I hate those who murder under the name of Islam. Though I think your religion is wrong, I respect your right to practice it as long as it does not infringe on my right to practice mine. But hear lies the problem- many of the Islam faith do not want me to have that right and say, demand, that I either convert or die. Well, as a Christian, I will die for Christ as He died for me.
Iím sure you may have some pretty bad views of me based on my postings and I can understand that if I tried to look at it from your side. Iím very open about my Christianity and how I feel about those who want to deny me of my right to practice it. All I ask is that you try to see it from our side and I think you have. Overall, we (all religions) just want to be left alone and live in peace, raise our families, drink a beer or two or three or..., have a good pork dinner on the grill, lie about the monster fish we caught and shoot our guns.
Report: Non-Muslims Deserve to Be Punished
Tuesday, April 01, 2008
A report posted on Islam Watch, a site run by Muslims who oppose intolerant teachings and hatred for unbelievers, exposes a prominent Islamic cleric and lawyer who support extreme punishment for non-Muslims ó including killing and rape.
A question-and-answer session with Imam Abdul Makin in an East London mosque asks why Allah would tell Muslims to kill and rape innocent non-Muslims, including their wives and daughters, according to Islam Watch.
"Because non-Muslims are never innocent, they are guilty of denying Allah and his prophet," the Imam says, according to the report. "If you don't believe me, here is the legal authority, the top Muslim lawyer of Britain."
The lawyer, Anjem Choudary, backs up the Imam's position, saying that all Muslims are innocent.
"You are innocent if you are a Muslim," Choudary tells the BBC. "Then you are innocent in the eyes of God. If you are not a Muslim, then you are guilty of not believing in God."
Choudary said he would not condemn a Muslim for any action.
"As a Muslim, I must support my Muslim brothers and sisters," Choudary said. "I must have hatred to everything that is not Muslim."
A German's point of view on Islam.
A man whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.
'Very few people were true Nazis 'he said,' but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'
We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectra of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam. The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history.
It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. The hard quantifiable fact is that the 'peaceful majority', the 'silent majority', is cowed and extraneous.
Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.
China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.
The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.
And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?
History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:
Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun. Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghanis, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.
As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts; the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
Thanks, I take that as a compliment. I do see my self as a redneck as I am Texan, love guns, beer, and rock crawling in my Jeep.
As far as standing up to the extremist, what can I do but educate the ones around me about the extremist. I believe that the extremist them selves are a lost cause and need to be dealt with in that manner. I mean when I finish school and have time to take action I will do what I can. But it really needs to take place in those countries. Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the others. The people need to have another revolution and get the current people that are in power out and start over. It isn't working with Iraq because WE went in there and tried to change things, but if it was the people there, I believe it would have been different. Don't get me wrong, I am glad that Sadam is out of power because of everything that he has done to the family that I have in Iran, but I believe for a change of power to help, it needs to be the people, not another country.
I also hate the ones that murder under the Islam faith. It makes us look bad. And you have all the right to believe that my religion is wrong, thanks to where we live, and I don't look at you any different for thinking that way. And as far as Christ goes, we believe in him also. The only difference is that we see him as a prophet and not God or God's son. So he also died for my sins.
As I said in the paragraph above, I don't have any bad views of you at all. I believe anyone can think what they want, we are all humans and we have our own mind. And I agree with you, as soon as someone tells me that I can't practice my religion the way that I want to would get up in arms also. I do see it from yalls side, I just get a little angry when on the 6 or 7 forums that I am on, I always see someone bashing all the Islamic people, not the extremist, and no one backs up the majority, so I had to chime in. It just happened to be on the top of the list on the homepage, and I wasn't expecting it.
If any of yall are ever in the Dallas area, send me a PM, lets have a beer and see for yourself.
I'll chime in with my acceptance, and my pleasure to have read your essays.
Although the concept of dhimmi is still with us, as characterized by the news story in Tony's post, I'm happy to see that you repudiate it.
I wish only that there were many more Muslims like you.
If you're ever going to be in Northwest Washington State, let me know. We live in a place that isn't easy to get to, but it's so beautiful that it's worth the effort. And the beer is cold. Come see.