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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by P89Jeeper View Post
    ...We are supposed to allow any religion worship god in any shape or form that they want. God said that as long as they are worshiping me in one way or another let it be...
    Um, sorry, but the Koran also speaks about the unbeliever (Christian, Jew, whatever) as "dhimmi," second-class citizens who are specially taxed, have fewer civil rights, are not allowed to bear arms and, indeed, aren't even allowed to fight back against an attack on person or property by a Muslim.
    Further, the Koran commands that any religion newer than Islam, Bahai for instance, is a religion that must necessarily be apostate from Islam, and that its adherents are therefore to be either forceably converted or put to death.

    I admit that both Judaism and Christianity also have some things like these in their backgrounds, but these older religions now have matured and become more tolerant.
    We in the West are waiting, less and less patiently, for Islam to grow up too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by P89Jeeper View Post
    This is the extremist. We aren't taught to be violent people. That is again the children of ignorant people that have been taught things that have been twisted and not really in the faith.
    The extremist seem to have the upper hand at this point.

    Of course, we say extremist views... but aren't these views a growing majority in the places like the Middle East, Afghanistan, Pakistan...etc?

    When you say uneducated.... This is what we are seeing and hearing...

    Can you explain this...



    and can you explain this as well...



    and this one...




    also, do you agree with the Muslims in the video below... for the annihilation of Jews...?

    Last edited by js; 04-01-2008 at 12:25 AM.
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    I don't support any particular religion, I do however support your right to worship as you choose and demand you respect my right to choose for myself.

    I will agree with JS that radical Islam is a problem. Where we differ is that I see radical any religion as the problem, not Islam.

    Radical Christianity is a problem too, Branch Davidians, Aryan Nations, Army of God, Christian Identity, The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord (CSA), Christian Patriots, and Lambs of Christ to name a few in the US alone. But the moment you lump these radicals together as an example of all Christians, the flaw in your logic becomes clear.

    But if it doesn't, the CSA hasn't hijacked the Baptist Church. Likewise some fatwah issuing mullah in Iran hasn't hijacked the mosque in Duluth.

    By all means hunt down terrorists who bomb, behead and maim, but don't bully the kid who wears religious adornment, if its a hijab or a skullcap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    The extremist seem to have the upper hand at this point.

    Of course, we say extremist views... but aren't these views a growing majority in the places like the Middle East, Afghanistan, Pakistan...etc?

    When you say uneducated.... This is what we are seeing and hearing...

    Can you explain this...

    Yes they have the upper hand. Why don't you see other Muslims standing up and condemning them for what they are saying and doing? Because they are afraid for their lives. Living here in Texas you don't see to many Muslims and when something goes wrong and we had debates in my classes I would try to explain what is going on in the real peoples views. That's not on the large scale, but what can a poor med student do, just try to educate the people around me.

    Yes those views are growing in those countries, but not by the citizens of those countries, but the people who run them. I have family in Iran that don't know half of what is going on here, or what their political leaders are saying on international news networks. Everything is hidden from them. It isn't like here where you can just get on the internet and find out what you want. They restrict things like that. They don't let anyone have a satellite so they can't get any news from other countries. And that stuff is the stuff you are seeing is because you aren't looking for the news cast that talk good about the religion, but something that is controversial.

    And as far as the dhimmi goes, that is from text that is from the 7th century. Things have changed since then. There are somethings that I do that I am not supposed to, like drink, eat pork, and have tattoos, but that's because I believe that this is a different time and place and you can't read into all the book. For example the pork thing. This was written into the Koran because the pig was a dirty animal and you could get tape worm from them. It isn't the case these days. I mean you still can get tape worm, but the chances now are very slim. Besides I need my ribs and bacon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    I don't support any particular religion, I do however support your right to worship as you choose and demand you respect my right to choose for myself.

    I will agree with JS that radical Islam is a problem. Where we differ is that I see radical any religion as the problem, not Islam.

    Radical Christianity is a problem too, Branch Davidians, Aryan Nations, Army of God, Christian Identity, The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord (CSA), Christian Patriots, and Lambs of Christ to name a few in the US alone. But the moment you lump these radicals together as an example of all Christians, the flaw in your logic becomes clear.

    But if it doesn't, the CSA hasn't hijacked the Baptist Church. Likewise some fatwah issuing mullah in Iran hasn't hijacked the mosque in Duluth.

    By all means hunt down terrorists who bomb, behead and maim, but don't bully the kid who wears religious adornment, if its a hijab or a skullcap.
    I am by no means saying that JS is wrong about the radical Muslim, but I don't like when people say Muslims or Islam and not radicals because that gives all of us bad names.

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    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    I don't support any particular religion, I do however support your right to worship as you choose and demand you respect my right to choose for myself.

    I will agree with JS that radical Islam is a problem. Where we differ is that I see radical any religion as the problem, not Islam.

    Radical Christianity is a problem too, Branch Davidians, Aryan Nations, Army of God, Christian Identity, The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord (CSA), Christian Patriots, and Lambs of Christ to name a few in the US alone. But the moment you lump these radicals together as an example of all Christians, the flaw in your logic becomes clear.

    But if it doesn't, the CSA hasn't hijacked the Baptist Church. Likewise some fatwah issuing mullah in Iran hasn't hijacked the mosque in Duluth.

    By all means hunt down terrorists who bomb, behead and maim, but don't bully the kid who wears religious adornment, if its a hijab or a skullcap.
    +1

    I don't really consider myself a religious person... more spiritual I guess... I personally think all organized religion has major flaws and is extremely hypocritical. But anyway....

    But, I guess it really starts to boil down to this when it comes to Islam... Is the extremist view now the norm...? It seems that there are 2 Islamic views on everything...
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    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    +1

    I don't really consider myself a religious person... more spiritual I guess... I personally think all organized religion has major flaws and is extremely hypocritical. But anyway....

    But, I guess it really starts to boil down to this when it comes to Islam... Is the extremist view now the norm...? It seems that there are 2 Islamic views on everything...
    The norm in peoples eyes nowadays, yes because that is what they see on tv all the time. In the a true Muslims eyes no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by P89Jeeper View Post
    And as far as the dhimmi goes, that is from text that is from the 7th century. Things have changed since then. There are somethings that I do that I am not supposed to, like drink, eat pork, and have tattoos, but that's because I believe that this is a different time and place and you can't read into all the book. For example the pork thing. This was written into the Koran because the pig was a dirty animal and you could get tape worm from them. It isn't the case these days. I mean you still can get tape worm, but the chances now are very slim. Besides I need my ribs and bacon.
    What you wrote is a good example... What would a die hard religious muslim think about what you are doing...? I guess you could say... "old school" muslim...
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    Quote Originally Posted by P89Jeeper View Post
    Yes they have the upper hand. Why don't you see other Muslims standing up and condemning them for what they are saying and doing? Because they are afraid for their lives...
    All you need, to have evil in the world, is that good people do nothing.

    (I'm paraphrasing. I don't remember the actual quote.)

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    What about Sharia law...?
    "bing bang boom! hair out...hamburger time" - William Murderface

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    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    Is the extremist view now the norm...?
    Human interest stories about Moslem family life will not sell newspapers or advertising time on TV. International news in the press is total crap. I read the Economist and watch BBC America to find out whats going on outside the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    What about Sharia law...?
    What a great idea for the folks in Gitmo.

    Given crimes committed while on parole and rampant recividism, Sharia might be more effective than 3 strikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    What you wrote is a good example... What would a die hard religious muslim think about what you are doing...? I guess you could say... "old school" muslim...
    They don't like it. Like my mom for example. She can't stand that I eat pork, have tattoos or drink beer, but I am her son and she loves me anyways. Or when I have brought up that I am a Muslim in class the "old school" Muslims in class don't believe me at first because of my tattoos, and they can't believe I even got them. I tell them "Come out with me on the weekend and see if your still mad about the tattoos". The way I see it is it's the 21th century, times have changed. As long as I don't bad mouth anyone or steal, I will be ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    I

    I will agree with JS that radical Islam is a problem. Where we differ is that I see radical any religion as the problem, not Islam.

    Radical Christianity is a problem too, Branch Davidians, Aryan Nations, Army of God, Christian Identity, The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord (CSA), Christian Patriots, and Lambs of Christ to name a few in the US alone. But the moment you lump these radicals together as an example of all Christians or Americans, the flaw in your logic becomes clear.
    When it comes to radical Christians... You're not seeing the suicide "christian" bombers or christians taking hostages and beheading them or homosexuals being hanged. Also, you're not hearing about or seeing women being stoned to death... or placed on soccer field and having their brains blown out by an AK47.

    I'm sure that if this was going on... People would lump.
    Last edited by js; 04-01-2008 at 12:55 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by P89Jeeper View Post
    They don't like it. Like my mom for example. She can't stand that I eat pork, have tattoos or drink beer, but I am her son and she loves me anyways. Or when I have brought up that I am a Muslim in class the "old school" Muslims in class don't believe me at first because of my tattoos, and they can't believe I even got them. I tell them "Come out with me on the weekend and see if your still mad about the tattoos". The way I see it is it's the 21th century, times have changed. As long as I don't bad mouth anyone or steal, I will be ok.
    Do you think that your life would be in danger if you lived in a more muslim majority type area and still lived your lifestyle...?
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    Well, after talking to the few of yall that I have tonight, I do have to retract my calling yall stupid and ignorant. I just got a little heated when I came here to talk and read about one of my loves, guns, and saw that post as the first one. I can tell just by the few posts that yall are educated, but just a little misinformed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    Do you think that your life would be in danger if you lived in a more muslim majority type area and still lived your lifestyle...?
    Without a doubt. Well, if you are talking about the middle east. As far as a more Muslim majority here in America, no. Plus I have a CHL. That is one of the reason I am proud to be born here in America where I don't have to worry about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    When it comes to radical Christians... You're not seeing the suicide "christian" bombers or christians taking hostages and beheading them. Also, you're not hearing about or seeing women being stoned to death... or placed on soccer field and having their brains blown out by an AK47.

    I'm sure that if this was going on... People would lump.
    Its going on, except maybe the suicide part.

    Christian Identity

    Christian Identity has been associated with terrorist Eric Robert Rudolph, who carried out a series of bombings across the southern United States, which killed three people and injured at least 150 others, because he violently opposed abortion and homosexuality as contrary to Christian doctrine. His mother spent time with Nord Davis, a Christian Identity ideologue who wrote propaganda claiming that the world was controlled by Jews, and which advocated killing gays and those who engaged in mixed-race relationships. Rudolph's sister-in-law claimed that he was a member of the sect, but Rudolph claims to have only been a member of a Christian Identity church for six months because he was dating the daughter of Identity Pastor Dan Gayman, and wrote "I was born a Catholic, and with forgiveness I hope to die one." Idaho State University sociology professor James A. Aho said, "I would prefer to say that Rudolph is a religiously inspired terrorist, because most mainstream Christians consider Christian Identity to be a heresy."

    Army of God

    In 2001, at the height of the United States anthrax scare, more than 170 abortion clinics and doctors offices in 14 states received letters containing white powder and the message "You have been exposed to anthrax. We are going to kill all of you. Army of God, Virginia DARE Chapter." In December 2003 Clayton Waagner was convicted for these attacks. Waagner had entered the home of antiabortion militant Neal Horsley, tied him up and held him at gunpoint, and then made a taped confession. Ann Glazier, director of clinic security at the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, said that during the trial Waagner had "repeatedly bragged that he had been the most wanted man in America and that he was a terrorist. It was unbelievable." Salon magazine reported that whilst the press had generally called Waagner a terrorist, they "studiously avoid use of the word 'Christian'". Chip Berlet, senior analyst at Political Research Associates, said "If Waagner had been a self-identified Muslim terrorist instead of a Christian terrorist, he'd have been lynched by now...But if it's fair to say if we can see the religious motivations in the Taliban, we ought to be able to see them in Waagner or Eric Rudolph."


    Aryan Nations

    In 1999, a member of the neo-Nazi organization, Buford O. Furrow Jr., confessed to FBI in the killing of a fill-in mail carrier, and the wounding of five other people in a Jewish community center. Aryan Nations followers admire Adolf Hitler and claim that minority group members are "mud people" and spawns of Satan. Authorities quoted Furrow as saying he wanted his act to be "a wake-up call to America to kill Jews." Furrow had also once told police that he often fantasized about suicide, while neighbors, associates, and court records stated that Furrow had a long history of mental illness and had interests in white supremacist religion and paramilitary. Furrow who was an officer of the internal security force of the Aryan Nations reportedly stockpiled weapons and ammunition, abused his wife, and once daydreamed about shooting people at random in a shopping mall near Seattle. Less than an hour after opening fire at the Jewish community center and wounding three little boys and two female workers, Furrow gunned down Joseph Ileto, a U.S. postal worker. Furrow reportedly told investigators he considered killing the mail carrier a "good opportunity" because Ileto was nonwhite and worked for the federal government. Furrow was reportedly second husband to Debbie Mathews, the widow of Robert J. Mathews, domestic terrorist who died in a shootout with Federal authorities in 1994 and the founder of a U.S. neo-Nazi group called the Order which was involved in a campaign of assassinations, bombings and robberies. The Order was supposedly broken apart by arrests, internal dissent and killings; however, some members vowed to strike at targets in small groups or alone, committing violent acts against Jews, blacks, homosexuals or abortion providers thereby earning membership in a loose-knit fraternity of racists who call themselves priests, the Phineas Priesthood. Richard Kelly Hoskins, author of many books about race and banking, one of which was found in Furrow's van, wrote, "As the kamikaze is to the Japanese, as the Shiite is to Islam, as the Zionist is to the Jew, so the Phineas Priest is to Christiandom." Interviewed from his home in Lynchburg, Va., Mr. Hoskins said the book found in Furrow's possession, "War Cycles/Peace Cycles," was about "the history of usury," including what he called "the traditional Jewish presence in banking," and wrote on his Web page that the book explains "the necessity for assassination of national leaders." For the August 1999 shootings in which five people were wounded and one man killed, Furrow received two life sentences plus 110 years in prison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by P89Jeeper View Post
    Without a doubt. That is one of the reason I am proud to be born here in America where I don't have to worry about that.
    see... that is what's really sad about all this.

    But, you have to understand... we are bombarded by information about radicals who have expressed their intentions. On Sept 11th, 2001 they made good on their promise and continue to express their intentions to do more harm. They proved that they can follow through with their intentions. It's unfortunate that muslims like yourself are caught in the middle and I admit...I profile. I just don't who is "old school" or "new school" in their beliefs. Of course, if a tattooed, beer drinking, pork chop eating muslim walked up to me I think I'd be ok.


    And, I've only met 2 Muslims in my life... both were not good impressions. First, older man who refused to shake my hand due to my beliefs and the other was a girl that I dated a couple of years ago... her family insisted that she stop seeing me... because again, my beliefs differed from theirs. She was "new school", they, her parents...and grandmother, were "old school".
    Last edited by js; 04-01-2008 at 01:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    see... that is what's really sad about all this.

    But, you have to understand... we are bombarded by information about radicals who have expressed their intentions. On Sept 11th, 2001 they made good on their promise and continue to express their intentions to do more harm. They proved that they can follow through with their intentions. It's unfortunate that muslims like yourself are caught in the middle and I admit...I profile. I just don't who is "old school" or "new school" in their beliefs. And, I've only met 2 Muslims in my life... both were not good impressions. First, older man who refused to shake my hand due to my beliefs and the other was a girl that I dated a couple of years ago... her family insisted that she stop seeing me... because again, my beliefs differed from theirs. She was "new school", they, her parents...and grandmother, were "old school".
    I do understand. Its unfortunate that you haven't had good impressions with the ones that you have met, I bet if we met at a bar and you didn't know my religion, but then found out later on that night, you wouldn't get a bad impression from me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by P89Jeeper View Post
    I do understand. Its unfortunate that you haven't had good impressions with the ones that you have met, I bet if we met at a bar and you didn't know my religion, but then found out later on that night, you wouldn't get a bad impression from me.

    Like I said, after editing my last post...

    if a tattooed, beer drinking, pork chop eating muslim walked up to me I think I'd be ok.
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    To submoa:

    The parallel you're trying to draw is ineffective.

    Radical Christians such as the sects you described are infinitely-small minorities, and definitely not tolerated in our society.
    Further, nobody is afraid of standing up to them, or of speaking the truth about their bigotry and murderous nastiness.

    On the other hand, J89Jeeper truthfully states that moderate muslims, the vast majority in Islam, are scared to death of standing up to the relatively larger group of radicals among them.

    The West learned, between 1933 and 1945 (and also, in another case, between 1919 and quite recently), that the only way to stop deadly radicals is to stand up and fight them, either in a shooting war or with powerful economics.

    Islam has not yet learned that lesson. We are hoping that they do eventually learn it, and soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    The parallel you're trying to draw is ineffective.
    The parallel I'm trying to draw is that to label a whole group of religions based on the behavior of some sects is a dangerous generalization that flirts with bigotry. And the Christian terrorist examples are to refute JS's proposition that Christian terrorists are somehow kinder, gentler, soft and cuddlier than other brands. But if its not working you're right, its ineffective.

    Its unfortunate, but as a culture we have a long sad history of dehumanizing people: Black slavery, Chinese railroads, Japanese internment, Mexican illegal immigration. Now moslems and terrorism. Dehumanizing people may make it easier to tolerate if not outright support activities such as the Patriot Act, waterboarding and rendition. I'd like to change that and encourage you to deal with people based on their individual merits (and waterboard all criminals... jk).

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    Radical Christians such as the sects you described are infinitely-small minorities, and definitely not tolerated in our society.
    Your comment about small minorities sounds exactly like the point P89Jeeper is trying to make.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    Further, nobody is afraid of standing up to them, or of speaking the truth about their bigotry and murderous nastiness.
    Nobody being afraid of radicals may be a bit of a stretch.

    Truth be told, its easy to speak your mind anonymously on an Internet forum. But when was the last time you went up to a group of skinheads and debated the lack of merits of their beliefs? If the KKK were holding a rally in your town, would you be the first one to show up to protest? Even if the next person showed up in less than a minute, that would be one long minute. The average person is not Billy Jack.

    Lets take the ideology out of the equation and think of terrorists as the criminal gangs that they are. How effective have we been in not tolerating urban gangs like the Crips and Bloods? Last I heard, they have been around for over 30 years with the police working against them. Do you think people who live in neighborhoods where these thugs prowl are afraid of "speaking the truth about their bigotry and murderous nastiness," in open court? Does everyone that lives in a Crip neighborhood belong to a gang? Are gang members even a majority in these neighborhoods? Now what if that neighborhood was a small town in Iran?

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    This "religion" point can be argued, discussed, hashed over forever. Let's just say they are the present day enemy. Their assignment, task, goal is to kill anyone who does not believe in their way of thinking. We are in the fight, so we have to defend our way of thinking and kill them before they are cruising our streets firing RPG's in through our dining room window while we eat with our family. It's the free world vs. the unfree world. We've been down this rode before, 60 plus years ago: Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan...sound familiar? Different time, different uniforms. It's not complicated or difficult, with the exception this enemy is literally all over the world and starting to become US home grown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SigZagger View Post
    This "religion" point can be argued, discussed, hashed over forever. Let's just say they are the present day enemy. Their assignment, task, goal is to kill anyone who does not believe in their way of thinking. We are in the fight, so we have to defend our way of thinking and kill them before they are cruising our streets firing RPG's in through our dining room window while we eat with our family. It's the free world vs. the unfree world. We've been down this rode before, 60 plus years ago: Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan...sound familiar? Different time, different uniforms. It's not complicated or difficult, with the exception this enemy is literally all over the world and starting to become US home grown.
    Have you not been reading what we were talking about? Did you just chime in with just reading of the posts? WE aren't the present day enemy, it's the extremist. What about John Allen Muhammad? He wasn't a Muslim his whole life, he converted and twisted the faith. You can't put the majority of a people into a group and say they are the present day enemy. What do you want to do? Do you want to put every practicing Muslim in a Camp like they did the Japanese after they bombed Pearl Harbor? What did that do? That didn't stop anything because the majority of the people they locked up were hard working people just trying to live the American dream. What do you think we should do?

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