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  1. #21
    Baldy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Well, if all liberals are insane, then anyone who is religious can also be termed insane, I guess. Believing in something you can't see, feel, hear, touch, taste, or prove exists? Must be crazy, right?

    I have debated religion with a lot of people. I have debated politics with a lot of liberals. Sometimes I've won, sometimes I've lost. But I never resorted to calling my opponents "clinically insane" simply for holding beliefs that differ from my own. That's just intellectual laziness, so that arguments that don't fit one's beliefs can be dismissed without regard, and so one doesn't have to actually win a debate with reason, logic, facts and persuasion. Name-calling is a cop-out, even if some obscure psychiatrist supports it.

    As much as I dislike his politics, I think Senator Obama has a pretty good handle on debate without acrimony: http://news.yahoo.com/s/weeklystanda...rimarycolors_1.
    Why are you dragging religion into this? There's a whole lot of issuses that could be brought up. Were talking about their mind set. That is power and contorl. Not all liberals are insane but some are not far from it. The ones I am talking about are the far leftwing nuts. Same thing with some of the far rightwing nut jobs. All I can say is if you can't take a punch don't get in the fight.

  2. #22
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    Interesting article.. I can't help thinking, that the powers that be that want to perpetuate this figured it out long ago, so that indoctrination at a young developmental age all the way through the education years was crucial to change the national pulse to beat to the drum of their socialist-totalitarian rule..

    Done by placating to the whining, victimized, class-hating emotions of lost souls that were never exposed to the glorious and wondrous liberties of the free market system and the rich history of this great nation, built by men and women of individual thought, ideals, values and work ethic..

    All this great and important learning was thus lost upon the pupils, preventing the formation of well educated minds, making well-adjusted normal conservative Americans.. They have been institutionally denied.

    ie, Public Education

    They attack by controlling the schools, the tax system, the courts, and now it seems... This presidential election.

    Hunker down boys and keep your powder dry... It's going to get ugly.

  3. #23
    john doe. is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Well, if all liberals are insane, then anyone who is religious can also be termed insane, I guess. Believing in something you can't see, feel, hear, touch, taste, or prove exists? Must be crazy, right?

    I have debated religion with a lot of people. I have debated politics with a lot of liberals. Sometimes I've won, sometimes I've lost. But I never resorted to calling my opponents "clinically insane" simply for holding beliefs that differ from my own. That's just intellectual laziness, so that arguments that don't fit one's beliefs can be dismissed without regard, and so one doesn't have to actually win a debate with reason, logic, facts and persuasion. Name-calling is a cop-out, even if some obscure psychiatrist supports it.

    As much as I dislike his politics, I think Senator Obama has a pretty good handle on debate without acrimony: http://news.yahoo.com/s/weeklystanda...rimarycolors_1.
    This wasn't an article about ones opponent. If it were then I may not have posted it... may not. (probably would have anyway)

    Mike,

    I can feel the wind- I can smell what the wind carries to me- I can see the effects of the wind on trees- but I physically can not see the wind.

    Does that mean that wind does not exist?

  4. #24
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    We must not realy have a heart lungs or any of the other things "they" say we have in us cause we can't see them. Damn I guess we are just empty shells.

    I seem to recall stories way back in the early day's of the "Cold War" regarding un-identifiable commies in deep cover that were preparing to attack this country from within. Given that I don't remember the sources therefore can't "Drop a Name" or quote a source to validate my statement it must not be real. I however consider it to be very real and the probable source of destruction of our nation as it has existed.


  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnoisaw View Post

    I can feel the wind- I can smell what the wind carries to me- I can see the effects of the wind on trees- but I physically can not see the wind.

    Does that mean that wind does not exist?
    Quote Originally Posted by TOF View Post
    We must not realy have a heart lungs or any of the other things "they" say we have in us cause we can't see them. Damn I guess we are just empty shells.
    What the hell are you guys talking about? I said physical evidence. I never said anything about being able to see it with you own eyes.

    TOF - you've never seen an actual human heart or lungs? I've seen them while still in action......chest open.

    tnoisaw - We don't have to actually see something with our eyes to have physical evidence of it's existence. Were you being serious?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred40 View Post
    What the hell are you guys talking about? I said physical evidence. I never said anything about being able to see it with you own eyes.

    TOF - you've never seen an actual human heart or lungs? I've seen them while still in action......chest open.

    tnoisaw - We don't have to actually see something with our eyes to have physical evidence of it's existence. Were you being serious?
    Look, if I presented you with evidence for Creationism, you would dismiss it anyway. The Discovery Channel networks do some really nice things with Bible history - showing how the Red (Reed?) Sea could have been parted, the cause of the Flood, etc. Indeed these are "theories" but I don't see why these theories are any more wacky than those you subscribe to.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred40 View Post
    What the hell are you guys talking about? I said physical evidence. I never said anything about being able to see it with you own eyes.

    TOF - you've never seen an actual human heart or lungs? I've seen them while still in action......chest open.

    tnoisaw - We don't have to actually see something with our eyes to have physical evidence of it's existence. Were you being serious?
    I am not in the medical field and have not cut myself open to check on things. Perhaps you are or did to yourself. No one else has looked inside me either I'm happy to say.

    You have discounted things that others declare to be fact because you have not been provided physical evidence.

    Now you say I have something within my shell that you have not seen and no other human has seen. So, using your logic several posts up, you expect me to believe that I am not just a shell?

    Your own rules disallow that.


  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baldy View Post
    What? Nobody called them names. Just look the other way if the turth hurts. Were expected to. They call us gun-nuts and many more things everyday. Now because some one labeled them with the truth were suppose to help them out. I don't think so.

    "you call that truth, we both have truths, are mine the same as yours?"
    Doesnt make the statements invalid, does imply opinion not fact

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baldy View Post
    I agree with you 100% on both sides go to far. The trouble is this country is being run by two elite classes of people that are after power to control. It's just a matter of time till they have us all herded into the coral and ready to dictate what we can do and can't. Think England. Some of the worlds greast warriors. Now can't even keep a gun in their home to protect their family. This is just one issuse of many.
    yep

  10. #30
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    Extremists of ANY type could be labeled as "insane". If your mindset is:
    * extreme left (the government takes care of the people's every need),
    * extreme right (the people's sole duty is to further the cause of the state),
    * extreme libertarian (the best government is no government; people get along just fine by informal social contract),
    * extreme religious (X is the only true God and Y is the only true prophet of that God and if you believe differently you are a stain on God's good Earth), or
    * extreme single-issue (X is the only important issue facing our country and we need to fix it my way NOW),

    you are insane.

    Why? Because such a mindset is monoist and thus antisocial; there is no room in your thinking for any alternate way of doing things. It's flat wrong; there are always different ways to do things, each with their champions and supporters, and refusal to ackowledge such a fact is simple rejection of reality.

    Look at our political system right now; it is by its very nature a polarizing force. There's no middle ground, because a vote not cast for one or the other of the two major parties is a vote wasted, and both parties are going to exclaim that fact to anyone who'll listen. And in the current political climate, every issue in the debates is a "yes/no" question. Are you for gay marriage or against it? For or against abortion? For or against gun control? For or against nationalized healthcare? For or against the war? For or against increased government spending (well, with that one you don't get much choice; the repubs are going to keep the Patriot Act and the Dems, if they toss it, will use the money to line the pockets of healthcare companies and doctors). And here's the rub; you can't be sane and say "just let me live my life without restriction!" and have any clout. You can't be for gay marriage and against gun control and abortion; the Dems won't let you keep your guns and the Repubs won't give gays marital rights or stay out of a woman's uterus. Neither government will let you live your life without restriction, and there is no third option in a winner-take-all system.

    So, the political system is on the whole insane; each side says "this is the way to live" and to disagree with both is to not have a voice. It's completely illogical. And extreme libertarianism has its own hypocrisies; the second you need government is the second you scream for it. Where was government on Black Thursday, 1929? Where was government in Birmingham in '64 when the chief of police quelled a nonviolent demonstration with dogs, fire hoses and bullwhips? Where was government at 6:00AM on 9/11? On a more personal level, where's government when my job gets outsourced to India for pennies on the dollar and I can't make the rent next month? Where's government when a co-worker runs me over with a forklift and puts me in a wheelchair, and the company lays me off without benefits because they can and I can't? Where's government when a bumper harvest drives prices for my crop to pennies on the dollar and I go bankrupt waiting for market prices to recover from the glut (a lot of crops are seasonal you know)? Those are all good reasons to have more than minimal government. "Nanny programs" like welfare, unemployment, and subsidized crop loans are there for people who cannot control catastrophic circumstances and who need help. With government aid comes government workers to manage it, and also comes system-gamers who make a living by manipulating the aid programs indefinitely. They are an unavoidable side-effect; monitoring the system to avoid manipulation is just another level of oversight.

  11. #31
    Baldy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babs View Post
    Interesting article.. I can't help thinking, that the powers that be that want to perpetuate this figured it out long ago, so that indoctrination at a young developmental age all the way through the education years was crucial to change the national pulse to beat to the drum of their socialist-totalitarian rule..

    Done by placating to the whining, victimized, class-hating emotions of lost souls that were never exposed to the glorious and wondrous liberties of the free market system and the rich history of this great nation, built by men and women of individual thought, ideals, values and work ethic..

    All this great and important learning was thus lost upon the pupils, preventing the formation of well educated minds, making well-adjusted normal conservative Americans.. They have been institutionally denied.

    ie, Public Education

    They attack by controlling the schools, the tax system, the courts, and now it seems... This presidential election.

    Hunker down boys and keep your powder dry... It's going to get ugly.
    Very well thought out answer Mr Babs. Just today I was reading where California is making mandatory classes for global warming. Al Gore must have made a big impression on the governor out there.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baldy View Post
    Very well thought out answer Mr Babs. Just today I was reading where California is making mandatory classes for global warming. Al Gore must have made a big impression on the governor out there.
    Sorta speaks (babs comment - sorry tried to quote both) to that whole "no child left behind" thing that limits teaching to a test, know actual learning of the ideas (like sya the constituion and WHY) and free thinking, huh?

  13. #33
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    niadhf,
    Indeed.. Sometimes I think mine was the last generation that actually learned something of the constitution, bill of rights and the mechanics of the free-market system. They used the "free thinking" thing as more diabolical excuse to infuse their ex-woodstock ideals that McCarthy was right about all along and that should have been deemed subversive to the American way of life and the great Republic for which the flag stands. I cringe every time I hear someone call it a Democracy, for they always implode from fiscal irresponsibility after the hording masses discover they can vote their paws into the coffers... ie Socialism.

    Baldy,
    Thanks... Been learning the necessaries of my 1st degree in the Masonic Lodge the last couple weeks, so I guess it's affected my speech as of late... Oh Lord I can't stop it. hehe

    It doesn't surprise me about the People's Republic of Cali.... Hate Ashbury has spread to the capital of Cali and DC. Global warming is just another means of control. I say we all buy 70's V-8's... I loved the 'party barge' growing up... A 77 Olds Cutlass... 4-barrel 350, bench seats and all.. Them were the days.. and I'm only 39.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by babs View Post
    niadhf,
    Indeed.. Sometimes I think mine was the last generation that actually learned something of the constitution, bill of rights and the mechanics of the free-market system. They used the "free thinking" thing as more diabolical excuse to infuse their ex-woodstock ideals that McCarthy was right about all along and that should have been deemed subversive to the American way of life and the great Republic for which the flag stands. I cringe every time I hear someone call it a Democracy, for they always implode from fiscal irresponsibility after the hording masses discover they can vote their paws into the coffers... ie Socialism.
    Babs,
    I'm sorry. What i mean by "free thinking" is the ability to think, form INFORMED opinions, and come to REASONED conclusions, without it being spoon fed through a pre-approved (read controlled) propaganda machine.

    You should see the CRAP they gave my Nephew about the constitution. Including a blurb (on ammendment 2) "some people thinks this means the individual right to bear arms, but in reality means to keep a standing army"
    and yeah i am not quite 40 either

  15. #35
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    I brought up religion as an example. If I dismiss someone by calling them nuts for believing in a god, have I won the debate? Will my "technique" be persuasive to them or someone observing the debate?

    Anyway, regardless of what names we call our political opponents, we still have to deal with them and the legislation they propose.

    Also, we have to convince people who are on the fence that we are right. Calling our opponents names is probably not the best way to do that. The mileage of others may vary, but I want to win this debate, and I don't think childish insults are the way to win it.
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  16. #36
    john doe. is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred40 View Post
    What the hell are you guys talking about? I said physical evidence. I never said anything about being able to see it with you own eyes.

    TOF - you've never seen an actual human heart or lungs? I've seen them while still in action......chest open.

    tnoisaw - We don't have to actually see something with our eyes to have physical evidence of it's existence. Were you being serious?
    I'm very serious.

    I've always been amazed of those who do not believe in God because I feel they have more faith than me. For me, my creator made everything. Black and white- no gray area. I see it in me, my wife, kids and my life: even through it’s struggles and difficulties. It makes since to me. But for a nonbeliever, they have to believe that it (we and the world) happened by chance- that nothing got together with nothing and formed something. That is true faith (in what I can’t tell you). If Christians had the kind of faith that a nonbeliever had the church would grow so fast that it would blow my mind.

    Sounds like a good, but weird prayer to have. Dear Lord, Please help me to have the faith of a nonbeliever to be a better and stronger Christian. Amen

    Personally, maybe I see things different because of my life experiences. I am a miracle- not just because I’m just here (born). I had a serious accident in 1985 in which I feel 700 feet down a mountain in Hawaii. It was Super bowl Sunday and I was lucky that a Navy Lieutenant saw me fall (I was so far down and in such a bad spot that the Army medics had to rappel out of the helicopter and evac me by flight to Tripler Army Hospital). I shattered my left femur which lead to a pulmonary embolism in my lungs.

    With the severity of the embolism I had a 10% chance to live according to the doctors. My heart stopped three times and I was fully inabated with a machine doing my breathing for me 100%. I was in ICU for two weeks. A few weeks later I got a bilateral phemothorax (both lungs collapsed). I almost lost my left leg above the knee because of lack of pulse in that leg.

    Other things happened on that mountain that could only be explained by the word, “miracle”. Not of modern medicine because the doctors had no idea what to do next and called my mom in Arizona and told her to fly to Hawaii as soon as possible to see her son because I will probably die. I’m a miracle because God had decided to keep me around. For what purpose I’m still not total sure of besides being a husband and father.

    This incident was not the start of my Christian life because that started thirteen years previously. So the, “accident” was not the reason for my strong faith.
    Funny how these posts seem to led to religion.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnoisaw View Post
    For what purpose I’m still not total sure of besides being a husband and father.
    Ask your wife and daughters if that isn't enough of a reason.

    WM
    Never argue with drunks or crazy people.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by niadhf View Post
    Babs,
    I'm sorry. What i mean by "free thinking" is the ability to think, form INFORMED opinions, and come to REASONED conclusions, without it being spoon fed through a pre-approved (read controlled) propaganda machine.

    You should see the CRAP they gave my Nephew about the constitution. Including a blurb (on ammendment 2) "some people thinks this means the individual right to bear arms, but in reality means to keep a standing army"
    and yeah i am not quite 40 either
    I understood and agree with "free-thinking". Unfortunately they twist the same term to justify the crap they're spewing into our kids.

    Yeah, don't ya wish the founding fathers could have left a lot less to interpretation by those that would subjugate the people by saying:

    "The right of every individual legal American Citizen to keep and bear arms of any kind, shall not be infringed by any governing body, be it local, state or national. Nor shall any numb-nut at this time or any future period have lawful ability to exert their infinite and boundless stupidity by so much as even suggesting in public forum that the right for citizens to individually or collectively arm themselves, with any tool known to man, for personal protection or to combat tyranny be in any way, shape, form or fashion be infringed. Furthermore, any idiot who so much as proposes that there should be any government mandated control of the ability to keep and carry arms, by the individual, shall be investigated and potentially considered an enemy of the citizens of these Unites States by inciting tyrannical rule, under potential penalty of being hung for treason and sedition. However, the first amendment will provide the freedom to speak their mind, unless it is for the cause of disarming the citizens, which would potentially eliminate the right to open their big yap to begin with."

    That's how it aughta have been written.. Can I get an Amen!!!???!??!

    Damn!! I shoulda been an attorney!

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by babs View Post
    "The right of every individual legal American Citizen to keep and bear arms of any kind, shall not be infringed by any governing body, be it local, state or national. Nor shall any numb-nut at this time or any future period have lawful ability to exert their infinite and boundless stupidity by so much as even suggesting in public forum that the right for citizens to individually or collectively arm themselves, with any tool known to man, for personal protection or to combat tyranny be in any way, shape, form or fashion be infringed. Furthermore, any idiot who so much as proposes that there should be any government mandated control of the ability to keep and carry arms, by the individual, shall be investigated and potentially considered an enemy of the citizens of these Unites States by inciting tyrannical rule, under potential penalty of being hung for treason and sedition."
    I am very glad it was not written like that, since the Second Amendment would then be in conflict with the First.
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    I am very glad it was not written like that, since the Second Amendment would then be in conflict with the First.
    I noticed that also... as you were replying I edited.. (clause added for prevision of freedom of speech with exception).
    You may like it now.

    Yeah actually ... more appropriate would be not so much that speech itself but legislation that should be deemed completely and utterly unlawful to the 2nd.. So folks can always speak their minds, but if they pass legislation, that should be considered an act of tyranny maybe.

    goooooood coffee this morning. ha ha hee hee ho ho.

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