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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnoisaw View Post
    Can a citizen do a right in vote for a presidential general election?
    I believe you can in Arizona but I have been wrong before. I doubted myself once and was proven wrong.

    I will vote for you and you can vote for me then we can know and say we did our duty.


  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnoisaw View Post
    Tricky question. Do we punish the child for the crime or stupidity of the parents? Personally, I would draw the line at saving a woman's life. If it was between my wife and my baby I would choose my wife. Luckily, this is very rare.

    I've seen the premie babies so small that they looked unreal. One of my nieces was a premature baby and is a healthy 14 year old. Medicine is always pushing back the time of, "viability" to such a point that it is more common now to have a healthy premature baby now than when Roe v. Wade was fought in the Supreme Court.
    Who cares! It's no ones right but the woman (possibly the man has SOME input) to decide. Give up on the "life is precious" sh!t. If there were less unplanned children in this world, everyone would be better off. The morning after pill should be available over the counter as far as I'm concerned. It'd be much more responsible than idiots trying to legally forcing a woman to have a child (for whatever reason she became pregnant).

    You are obviously not as concerned with making this world better but with forcing your beliefs on everyone else, regardless of their personal take on the situation. Sounds kinda like a dictator mentality to me.

    Seriously, I didn't want to make this post continue on this vein but I can't stand narrow mindedness.

    Yeh 2nd amendment, forget the rest of the discussion cause no one's going to be won over on this one.

  3. #83
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    I fear this thread has run its useful course, since it has devolved to an abortion debate, but I am going to conditionally keep it open because there have been a couple of good, intelligent posts about the BoR and how the candidates on both sides of the aisle support different parts of it...and trample on others.

    My general position is that Sen. McCain will trample of some parts of it, and the Democrats will trample on others. I don't want to give my tacit approval to either, since I care about the whole BoR.

    I don't care at all for Rep. Paul after the things with Stormfront, 9/11 Truth, the Sean Hannity incident (not that I like Hannity), and the racist Lew Rockwell ghostwriting. Anyway, he has zero chance of getting the GOP nod, which McCain has now locked up with Mr. Romney bowing out. He clearly can't win running on a platform that most GOP primary voters think is kooky. I'm not familiar with his quote about "special interests," but the 4A is a restraint on government, not private entities.

    There is clearly room for debate on prayer in school (maybe it should be allowed but not required?), "intelligent design" (I don't think it has any scientific validity, but maybe schools should present all sides of any debate?), abortion (do we have a definitive answer on when consciousness begins, or pain can be felt?), and even gun control (if cities with gun control are safer than those without, does the 2A preempt the safety of the very citizens it is meant to secure?).

    So lets keep the thread going, but when we disagree, let's do it politely and respectfully.
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  4. #84
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    Will someone tell me how abortion is somehow more acceptable than murdering a newborn? Abortion is nothing but a disgusting way to dodge responsibility. Give the baby up for adoption or take responsibility and keep it. Either way, the kid has a chance to grow up and enjoy the gift of life.

    Ok, suppose the shoe was on the other foot and evolution was not taught in school. You wouldn't like that. I don't like creationism being censored. Why not present both sides instead of teaching evolution as fact?

    Let's be civil.

  5. #85
    john doe. is offline Banned
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    I fear this thread has run its useful course, since it has devolved to an abortion debate, but I am going to conditionally keep it open because there have been a couple of good, intelligent posts about the BoR and how the candidates on both sides of the aisle support different parts of it...and trample on others.

    My general position is that Sen. McCain will trample of some parts of it, and the Democrats will trample on others. I don't want to give my tacit approval to either, since I care about the whole BoR.

    I don't care at all for Rep. Paul after the things with Stormfront, 9/11 Truth, the Sean Hannity incident (not that I like Hannity), and the racist Lew Rockwell ghostwriting. Anyway, he has zero chance of getting the GOP nod, which McCain has now locked up with Mr. Romney bowing out. He clearly can't win running on a platform that most GOP primary voters think is kooky. I'm not familiar with his quote about "special interests," but the 4A is a restraint on government, not private entities.

    There is clearly room for debate on prayer in school (maybe it should be allowed but not required?),That’s just it! This is how it stands now but the left (democrats) want to take that right away which is a clear violation of the First Amendment. "intelligent design" (I don't think it has any scientific validity, but maybe schools should present all sides of any debate?), I don’t like the phrase, “intelligent design”. I my view, God created- therefor it’s creationism. To me it’s a no brainier. Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors. What are the odds of this happening in a book written thousands of years ago? It’s been calculated that the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than 1 in 10 to the power of 2000! abortion (do we have a definitive answer on when consciousness begins, or pain can be felt?), If we define life as “when consciousness begins, or pain can be felt”, this can be used against many people outside the womb. A heart starts beating at eight weeks inside the womb. No heart beat, no life (Though I believe it goes back to conception). and even gun control (if cities with gun control are safer than those without, does the 2A preempt the safety of the very citizens it is meant to secure?).

    So lets keep the thread going, but when we disagree, let's do it politely and respectfully.

    You are right Mike in that we've diverted my original question into other area’s. I usually sit and just read posts that I disagree with and often say nothing but I am obviously very passionate about the killing of our unborn children. I’ll leave it at that...for now.

    Before moving on I wanted to comment on the post that said Republicans force religion down our throat. This statement really hit home with me because I’ve heard the same thing from my father in relationship to two of my brothers. He has told me many times how he doesn’t like it when my brothers try to force religion down his throat. The thing is, my brothers avoid this subject (and politics) with my dad because they are aware that he thinks this way. Do they do this by osmosis?

    My dad believes in God/Jesus and four out of five of his boys and five out of five of his girls are born-again Christians. His false preconception on this issue stems from his childhood.

    My dad says there are two subjects that he won’t discuss with his kids. Politics and religion. We discuss them often with him though and guess who brings it up, yep, my dad.

    There is a false preconception about religious Christian that we all try to force Jesus onto people. I will admit, many are like that, but not all. We get lumped into this false idea because of what we believe. I’m often lumped into this category because of the way I live. People notice my lack of profanity et. and rightly assume that I’m religious. That’s okay with me because that means I’m doing something right.

    I can say that the anti-Christian left tries to force their views down my throat through all the pro gay TV shows, environmental radicalism and many other issues. Some do try to force their views... and some don’t.

    I want to end this discussion on this end of religion and politics... for me anyway. This is an area that we will never have total consensus even with very similar views.

    What do we/or can we do about poor candidates for the most important job in the world? I don’t like the fact that I may have to vote for McCain just because I don’t want my lack of vote going to the left. I was really hoping Newt Gingrich would have run. He’s the closest man to President Reagan that I know of.
    Last edited by john doe.; 02-09-2008 at 11:18 AM.

  6. #86
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    Just for the record, I have never felt that any Christians have tried to shove religion down my throat, and I say that as a non-religious person who travels mainly in conservative circles.

    I understand the point about arguments for abortion being transferred to euthanasia. But, tnoisaw, I don't quite understand your overall position. Does life begin at conception or when the heartbeat starts? If at conception, why, since you also stated that "no heartbeat, no life"? And if life begins at the heartbeat, how would an abortion in the first seven weeks then be murder? Not being flippant, these are serious questions asked respectfully.

    I don't know about any 2500 prophecies. I do know that most of the arguments like that I have heard have involved pretty vague statements, sometimes taken out of context, from the Bible. People did the same thing with the "prophecies" of Nostrodamus, and of course according to them, the world was supposed to blow up in like 1982. I'm pretty skeptical about prophecies.
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  7. #87
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    I say this in all honesty an sincereness with regards to "Intelligent Design" VS. Evolution:

    I have never met anyone who understood (really understood) the mechanisms of evolution and still disregarded it.......not one. It took A LOT of time and research for me to finally understand and truly grasp the concepts and the implications of evolution. Evolution is only a theory in the EXACT same sense that Gravity is only a theory. That being said I have (unfortunately) met a rather disappointingly few number of individuals who fully comprehend evolution.

    Another thing, Just because evolution is true does not in any way = the non existence of God (or Gods for that matter). You can believe in evolution and still believe in a higher being.

    If anyone truly believes that the Earth is only 6000 or so years old then I could not carry on any further discussions with such a person (I used to try in the past but now realize I'm just spinning my wheels).......such individuals are deluded beyond the ability for logical and rational discussion.......IMHO. I seriously mean no offense to anyone. Just voicing my opinion. If I have offended you (dear reader) than I do apologize. Now back to the gun talk.

  8. #88
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    Fred40, do you have links to any websites that really solidified your understanding of evolutionary mechanisms? I admit to not understanding it as well as I'd like.
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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Fred40, do you have links to any websites that really solidified your understanding of evolutionary mechanisms? I admit to not understanding it as well as I'd like.
    To summarise Darwin's Theory of Evolution;

    1. Variation: There is Variation in Every Population.
    2. Competition: Organisms Compete for limited resources.
    3. Offspring: Organisms produce more Offspring than can survive.
    4. Genetics: Organisms pass Genetic traits on to their offspring.
    5. Natural Selection: Those organisms with the Most Beneficial Traits
    are more likely to Survive and Reproduce.

    http://www.darwins-theory-of-evolution.com/
    http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Charle...-Evolution.htm

    Let's apply Darwinism to a popular example:

    1. Variation: Freaks are everywhere.
    2. Competition: Britney Spears is rich.
    3. Offspring: Sad news for at least one of Britney's kids if left in her care.
    4. Genetics: Britney's kids will peak at 17.
    5. Natural Selection: The boy who becomes a spoiled rich hollywood douchebag will get laid first (equally likely to be gay).

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred40 View Post
    I say this in all honesty an sincereness with regards to "Intelligent Design" VS. Evolution:

    I have never met anyone who understood (really understood) the mechanisms of evolution and still disregarded it.......not one. It took A LOT of time and research for me to finally understand and truly grasp the concepts and the implications of evolution. Evolution is only a theory in the EXACT same sense that Gravity is only a theory. That being said I have (unfortunately) met a rather disappointingly few number of individuals who fully comprehend evolution.
    Just realize that someone who commits to studying something like that will certainly be more willing to buy in once he "gets it." There is no comparison to gravity. It's Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation and is quite easily measurable. Only theories have been offered to explain how evolution might have happened based on what we can see. This doesn't address how life actually began or where anything came from.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred40 View Post
    "Intelligent Design"
    As much as I like the end result, was it so "intelligent" to put the maternity ward so close to the sewage treatment plant?

  12. #92
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    Thanks, submoa. I have a pretty good grasp of the basics, but it seemed like Fred40 was hinting at something a bit deeper. I'll check into the links you posted.
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  13. #93
    Todd is offline Banned
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    Wow! This thread has gone from McCain, to abortion, to Darwin & Britney Spears. With all due respect, I've gotta bow out of this one now before my brain gets fried.

  14. #94
    john doe. is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post

    ...I don't know about any 2500 prophecies. I do know that most of the arguments like that I have heard have involved pretty vague statements, sometimes taken out of context, from the Bible. People did the same thing with the "prophecies" of Nostrodamus, and of course according to them, the world was supposed to blow up in like 1982. I'm pretty skeptical about prophecies.
    I can certainly understand how the prophesies could be confusing because I certainly donít understand them all and am not even close to a theologian. Iím not even close to a model Christian even though Iíve been born again since 1972. Letís just say, when Iím single my little head does the thinking and my big head suffers from temporary veggitism. Thatís why being married is good for me- I wonít cheat on my wife.

    Through the years as Iíve studied the bible many things have come to be understood by me that were previously very confusing. It hasnít been but the last ten years of my Christian life that Iíve actually studied Christianity to understand Christianity.

    So what if only a handful of prophesies were as clear as our knowledge that Glock is the best handgun ever made. Many prophesies about Jesus are that way-even the fact of Him being crucified on the cross. This prophesy was told before crucification was invented. The odds of these coming true by one man would be pretty unbelievable would they not?

    I hope this doesnít appear to be preaching to ya because thatís not the way I am. Iím not one of those in your face Christians and yes, Iíve known many of them. All they do is turn people off of the real truth which really pisses me off.

    You said your skeptical on these things. So was Thomas, one of Jesusís disciples. Heck, he would not believe what Jesus said about Him being raised from the dead until he saw the scars on his hands. Nothing wrong with skepticism as long as it doesnít cloud the truth. Like those anti-Glockers out there.

    Well, as usual, Iím on this forum instead of getting ready for work so I better get moving. Iím really surprised my keyboard is not layered with Cocoa Wheat's, oatmeal and toast crumbs.

  15. #95
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    Sorry to drift back towards the topic ;D but I'm always disappointed when I hear of McCain being described as the "presumptive GOP" candidate. Late last year, Guilani was considered the "front runner" despite the lack of any popular vote. Today he's an also-ran.

    My point is that the vast majority of the American people have not voiced thier opinion on the matter, and it is a disservice to them to suggest that they shouldn't bother since it's going to be McCain anyway.

    If you think Ron Paul is the guy, put it on paper (or magnetic tape as it were.) I personally think that Huckabee has a chance, but will not garner the votes to show it, partially due to "calling" of the race before it's run.

    Polling and media coverage are useful and dangerous things. I'm all for the best man winning in the eyes of the American people (even if it is McCain, or a Democrat for that matter). It's not too far fetched to imagine media prognostication being self-fulfilling though.

  16. #96
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    Mike:

    There is a lot of good information on Evolution on the internet and as you can guess there is even more disinformation. Here is a better link to understanding "Modern" evolution. http://evolution.berkeley.edu/

    Several things to remember:

    1) While Darwin is the father of evolutionary theory modern evolution theory has moved beyond (way beyond) what Darwin had developed. Darwin's Theory is no longer the prevailing theory. It's currently referred to as Modern evolutionary synthesis......which incorporates our understanding of genetics, something Darwin knew nothing about.

    2) There is a HUGE misconception within the general public on what a scientific theory really is. Theory in the scientific sense DOES NOT MEAN BEST GUESS. Please (really please) read this link regarding just what a Theory is. http://wilstar.com/theories.htm

    3) Evolution does not work by chance alone. Also, there is no GOAL. Evolution "happens" because genes cannot make perfect copies of themselves every time. Mutations occur. Most Mutations are harmful and are therefore removed. Every once in a great while a mutation has benefits....these are then carried forward in the population.

    Described in its simplest terms, evolution is easy to understand. Due to mutation, organisms undergo random changes, some of which are beneficial, while others are not. The organisms with beneficial changes enjoy a competitive advantage, and these changes are passed on throughout the population and become common; those with deleterious changes are at a disadvantage, are less likely to reproduce, and do not pass these changes on, causing them to disappear out of the population.

    I think the problem for most people is in understanding the time scales involved. We live a century or so at best. It is very difficult to understand hundreds of thousands of years let alone billions. Our planet is over 4 billion years old.....that really is an incomprehensible amount of time.

    Once our planet cooled enough it had all the ingredients to support life. The problem was (and still is) how did it start? Basic elements coming together to form a more complex compound was not all that rare. The odds of those compounds coming together to form a self replicating molecule would appear to be so unimaginably minuscule as to be virtually impossible.......on timescales we comprehend........but on time scales of hundreds of millions of years even the improbable can become probable. Here is the kicker.....IT ONLY HAD TO HAPPEN ONCE. One time, one time in hundreds of millions of years. Once it happened.....once you had a self replicating molecule evolution was off and running. Errors in replication began to occur (mutation). Most resulted in the demise of the molecule..... some resulted in an ecological advantage.

    I would have to say my epiphany came when I read: The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins

  17. #97
    john doe. is offline Banned
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    Any time I see Berkeley as a reference point I stop.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by MLB View Post
    Sorry to drift back towards the topic ;D but I'm always disappointed when I hear of McCain being described as the "presumptive GOP" candidate. Late last year, Guilani was considered the "front runner" despite the lack of any popular vote. Today he's an also-ran.

    My point is that the vast majority of the American people have not voiced thier opinion on the matter, and it is a disservice to them to suggest that they shouldn't bother since it's going to be McCain anyway.

    If you think Ron Paul is the guy, put it on paper (or magnetic tape as it were.) I personally think that Huckabee has a chance, but will not garner the votes to show it, partially due to "calling" of the race before it's run.

    Polling and media coverage are useful and dangerous things. I'm all for the best man winning in the eyes of the American people (even if it is McCain, or a Democrat for that matter). It's not too far fetched to imagine media prognostication being self-fulfilling though.
    It seems a year ago Guilani was a sure win. Umm, what happened there? Not that I'm upset. I like the guy but not as a president. This is all very discouraging to me to see our lack of choices.

  19. #99
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    I offer that the vast majority of American people do not understand what this thread has discussed.

    I offer that the vast majority of American people are enamored and excited by "Change" while not knowing what the change will be.

    I offer that the vast majority of American people will gladly and unknowingly choose "freebies" while ceding "Liberties".

    I offer that Mike and I should run for Office. Any Office.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnoisaw View Post
    It seems a year ago Guilani was a sure win. Umm, what happened there?
    He opened his mouth.

    PS. Also anti-gun.

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