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  1. #61
    Mike Barham's Avatar
    Mike Barham is offline Senior Member
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    Well, without delving too deeply into the abortion issue on a firearms forum, if the woman was responsible with birth control she wouldn't have an unwanted pregnancy in the first place. So in a sense, abortion is about avoiding responsibility, and possibly at the expense of another life...much like many things advocated by the Left.

    I'm a bit of a fence-sitter on abortion in the first trimester, just because I haven't seen truly convincing evidence on exactly when consciousness exists. I don't "work to restrict it."
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  2. #62
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    cvillechopper is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Barham View Post
    Well, without delving too deeply into the abortion issue on a firearms forum, if the woman was responsible with birth control she wouldn't have an unwanted pregnancy in the first place. So in a sense, abortion is about avoiding responsibility, and possibly at the expense of another life...much like many things advocated by the Left.

    I'm a bit of a fence-sitter on abortion in the first trimester, just because I haven't seen truly convincing evidence on exactly when consciousness exists. I don't "work to restrict it."
    A bit of a fence sitter on any issue shows the ability to truly consider either side. Personally, I don't like absolutes on ANY issue so I tip my hat to you.

  3. #63
    glock27bill is offline Junior Member
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    The primary reason to vote is to prevent Clinton or Obama for appointing their life-long judges to SCOTUS.

    Did anyone see the South Park episode where the elementary school was replacing its mascot? The choices were a talking douche and a turd sandwich. The choices were so repugnant that once of the characters (Stan) was not going to vote. His parent taught him a very valuable life lesson: ALL elections are a choice between a talking douche and a turd sandwich. Amen.

  4. #64
    john doe. is offline Banned
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    OK, I guess I didn't pray hard enough.

    I agree that a women has a right to do with her body as she pleases. But what's that got to do with abortion? We are not talking about the women's body but a separate body with similar but separate DNA.

    If a women wants to abort herself then, though I’d hate to see it done, go for it. Just don’t kill an innocent child with the sole offense was being conceived by irresponsible parents.

    Now you’ve really

  5. #65
    Mike Barham's Avatar
    Mike Barham is offline Senior Member
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    Let's steer this thread away from abortion and back to Senator McCain, who just swept Super Tuesday and is the presumptive GOP candidate. Threads debating abortion tend to go south pretty quickly, and I would hate to have to close another good and popular thread.

    Anyway, I could have probably held my nose and voted for ANY of the GOP candidates except John McCain. Seeing today's results, my wife has decided to abstain as well.

    While Clinton/Obama will stomp on some liberties, so will John McCain if his history is any guide. Just pick and choose the liberties you want to see ground under their heels.

    But they can do it without my tacit approval.
    Employed by Galco Gunleather - www.galcogunleather.com / Veteran OEF VIII

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  6. #66
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    McCain, Obama, and Hillary...

    Looks like I'll be voting Libertarian. I thought about voting for McCain, briefly. There are just too many things I completely disagree with him on. Just about everything, in fact.

  7. #67
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    As much as I dislike McCain, he is still a better choice than a lib like Hillary. This election has the worst choices that I've ever seen. Anymore it seems like it is a matter of voting for who ever will screw you the least.

  8. #68
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    Anybody starting to feel like we can't lead ourselves anymore? Between Bush and ANY of of the next candidates, I am starting to feel that way.

  9. #69
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    Doesn't matter which Obama or the Hilderbeast.. It'll be an election between the socialist and the RINO (Republican in Name Only).

    McCain =

  10. #70
    MLB's Avatar
    MLB
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    With so many important issues, you can't reasonably expect a candidate to agree with your feelings on each. It's a decision on who matches the closest on the ones that are important to you.

    If you have "deal breaker" issues with all of the candidates, well then you still have the option to wait it out until the next 4 years is up, or pick one and harrass the hell out of them on the point.

  11. #71
    Gunerd Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by hberttmank View Post
    As much as I dislike McCain, he is still a better choice than a lib like Hillary. This election has the worst choices that I've ever seen. Anymore it seems like it is a matter of voting for who ever will screw you the least.
    I believe I read a while back (before McCain's stunning come back) he was to be considered a running mate for Hillary. Not much difference.

  12. #72
    MLB's Avatar
    MLB
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    I think they differ on far too many issues for that to work. McCain's deviation from the Republican-appropriate responses are few. ( http://www.ontheissues.org/John_McCain.htm ) Although I don't always agree with them, I'd fear more a simple talking head for the Republican party.

  13. #73
    babs's Avatar
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    It convinces me that this nation cannot elect a candidate to the presidency who is pro founding-constitution, minimal-govt, private property, free speech, individual rights, .. etc.. basically OF and FOR the people. The power in this country is now under siege at the whim of the new world order I'm afraid. Buy 'em up while you can boys before the men in black with plexi-face helmets show up to take them.

    <---- while I still can

  14. #74
    Fred40 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by babs View Post
    It convinces me that this nation cannot elect a candidate to the presidency who is pro founding-constitution, minimal-govt, private property, free speech, individual rights, .. etc.. basically OF and FOR the people. The power in this country is now under siege at the whim of the new world order I'm afraid. Buy 'em up while you can boys before the men in black with plexi-face helmets show up to take them.
    What the hell am I ?

    I'm pro constitution. I'm pro minimal government, private property, free speech, individual rights and for people taking MORE responsibility for their own actions......yet at the same time I find myself more often than not leaning towards the Dems come election time! Why?

    While I'm pro everything listed above I'm also VERY PRO - LIVE AND LET LIVE. Keep your morals to yourself and don't push them on me and mine. The Republicans are to God Damned in my face with Religion and trying to TELL me what is right and what is wrong. I'm a 40 year old loving father of two who is very happily married. I've never cheated on my wife and never would. My kids are two of the most polite children you could ever hope to meet. They are still young (9) and (7) but they ALWAYS say please and thank you. They almost never act up in public. I help out in my community as does my wife. When I give you my word it is binding and you could bet your life on it. I hate hypocrisy.

    Why am I telling you all this? Because I'm also Pro gay marriage, pro stem cell research, pro woman's right to choose (not pro abortion.....and yes there is a HUGE difference). I don't want prayer in schools (that is anti-constitutional) I don't want to hear another word about "Intelligent Design" (a bigger oxymoron has never existed.), and I certainly don't want it taught in schools.

    LIVE AND LET LIVE. The pursuit of happiness! If you want to be gay or lesbian that is your choice. Who am I to say a word about it. Freedom of religion.....any religion....or none at all. If you and your wife want to be "swingers".......swing away. Who am I to stand in your way. Live and let live. If the republicans can ever do that I'll vote for one.

    I want smaller government. I would love to see local authority have more control and the government have less......a lot less. I would love to see the constitution upheld as the founding fathers intended (they are some of my biggest hero's) and I want to see everyone have the freedom to live as they see fit so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others........that last part is where the republicans fall flat time and time again.

  15. #75
    john doe. is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred40 View Post
    What the hell am I ?

    I'm pro constitution. I'm pro minimal government, private property, free speech, individual rights and for people taking MORE responsibility for their own actions......yet at the same time I find myself more often than not leaning towards the Dems come election time! Why?

    While I'm pro everything listed above I'm also VERY PRO - LIVE AND LET LIVE. Keep your morals to yourself and don't push them on me and mine. Is a law not a moral rule to prevent harm to others ie. Murder? The Republicans are to God Damned in my face with Religion and trying to TELL me what is right and what is wrong. Humm, which Republicans are you talking about? The perception is just what the leftst media wants you to think. The fact is, we, Christians, wants freedom to practice our religion without the government trying to take it away- such as prayer in school. There is nothing in our Constitution about the seperation of church and state. In fact it's just the opposite and states that we have the right to practice our religion without the feds saying who or what we have to worship. the no prayer in school takes away that right. When kids are expelled for praying SILENTLY to themselves at lunch then we have a big problem. I'm a 40 year old loving father of two who is very happily married. I've never cheated on my wife and never would. My kids are two of the most polite children you could ever hope to meet. They are still young (9) and (7) but they ALWAYS say please and thank you. They almost never act up in public. I help out in my community as does my wife. When I give you my word it is binding and you could bet your life on it. I hate hypocrisy.

    Why am I telling you all this? Because I'm also Pro gay marriage, pro stem cell research, pro woman's right to choose (not pro abortion.....and yes there is a HUGE difference). I don't want prayer in schools (that is anti-constitutional) Were in the Constitution is that clause? I don't want to hear another word about "Intelligent Design" (a bigger oxymoron has never existed.), and I certainly don't want it taught in schools. Hey what a minute! Darwinism is forced down my kids throut but I'm sure you don't complain about that. Why not teach both? Though I'd rather have creationism taught since it's based on fact and not fiction.

    LIVE AND LET LIVE. The pursuit of happiness! If you want to be gay or lesbian that is your choice. Who am I to say a word about it. Freedom of religion.....any religion....or none at all. If you and your wife want to be "swingers".......swing away. Who am I to stand in your way. Live and let live. If the republicans can ever do that I'll vote for one.

    I want smaller government. I would love to see local authority have more control and the government have less......a lot less. I would love to see the constitution upheld as the founding fathers intended (they are some of my biggest hero's) and I want to see everyone have the freedom to live as they see fit so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others........that last part is where the republicans fall flat time and time again.
    Sadley, both sides fail on that but I see things in a different light than you. How is democrats taking away our rights good?

    Bill of Rights

    First Amendment
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    So no prayer in school is a violation of the first admendment.

    Second Amendment – Right to keep and bear arms.
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
    This is a no brainer becuase we all know how the democrats wnat to take away all our rights and abolish the Second Amendment.

    Third Amendment –
    No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.


    Fourth Amendment –
    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    [I]“We must stop special interests from violating property rights and literally driving families from their homes, farms and ranches.”[/I]
    Ron Paul


    Fifth Amendment –
    No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
    Eminent Domain. See above Ron Paul quote.

    Sixth Amendment –
    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

    Seventh Amendment –
    In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

    Eighth Amendment – Prohibition of excessive bail, as well as cruel and unusual punishment.
    Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

    Ninth Amendment – The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

    Tenth Amendment –
    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
    Both sides of the political arena violate this all the time.


    Mike, yes this has been hijacked but I started the original discussion anyway so I've given myself that right.

    Please don't restrict constructive conversation unless it gets personal. Many of these discusions are stopped way too prematurely. That's the complaints I've heard about the 1911 forum.

  16. #76
    Gunerd Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by babs View Post
    It convinces me that this nation cannot elect a candidate to the presidency who is pro founding-constitution, minimal-govt, private property, free speech, individual rights, .. etc.. basically OF and FOR the people. The power in this country is now under siege at the whim of the new world order I'm afraid. Buy 'em up while you can boys before the men in black with plexi-face helmets show up to take them.

    <---- while I still can
    Good post babs.The 'people' only know what is spoon fed to them. (and damed if they don't believe it!!) They say they are Constitutionalists,but when it comes to voting for a candidate who is,the old ring is in the nose.Where are all these 'people come election day? What do they do? hold their nose and and vote against the Constitution.Hypocrites! The only one who fits the above (in my opinion)would be Ron Paul.

  17. #77
    submoa is offline Member
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    As much as I want to avoid the abortion debate, some of the extreme posts I've seen, force me to chime in here.

    What if the woman... or child... is a victim of incest or rape?

  18. #78
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    I'm new here, but I promise I'm not a troll. See my post in the welcome forum to find out why I'm really here.

    That said, I hope I'm not starting off on the wrong foot by saying I support Ron Paul. I hear so many here saying they are for a pro-Second Amendment, small-government, fiscally conservative, socially liberal president. At the same time, I hear a lot of "he can't win" and "he's a kook" statements.

    Like many of you, my biggest issue is his "Pro-Life" position. That's his PERSONAL position. At the same time, he stresses that it's not a Constitutional Issue, and therefore FedGov should just stay out of it!

    On other issues where I had concerns, I found that when I really learned his stand, I generally found a better understanding of the issue or "agreed to disagree".

    Overriding EVERY other issue for me is one supreme concern. Dr. Paul is PRO-LIBERTY, and the only candidate to take that stand. Every other candidate is telling you government should be bigger and more intrusive. He's the only one championing the belief that it should be much smaller and much more concerned with its customers, the voters, than with itself.

    Since I believe the same things, a vote for any other candidate is a wasted vote for me, because it doesn't reflect my core values.

    I promise I'll be seeing you all in the semi-auto and CCW discussions. Thanks for listening.

  19. #79
    john doe. is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by submoa View Post
    As much as I want to avoid the abortion debate, some of the extreme posts I've seen, force me to chime in here.

    What if the woman... or child... is a victim of incest or rape?
    Tricky question. Do we punish the child for the crime or stupidity of the parents? Personally, I would draw the line at saving a woman's life. If it was between my wife and my baby I would choose my wife. Luckily, this is very rare.

    I've seen the premie babies so small that they looked unreal. One of my nieces was a premature baby and is a healthy 14 year old. Medicine is always pushing back the time of, "viability" to such a point that it is more common now to have a healthy premature baby now than when Roe v. Wade was fought in the Supreme Court.

  20. #80
    john doe. is offline Banned
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    Can a citizen do a right in vote for a presidential general election?

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