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  1. #1
    tj1004 is offline Junior Member
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    Kimber Crimson Carry II

    New guy here. I currently own a Sprinfield XD 40 and a Keltec p11.

    Let me start off by saying I have never owned a 1911 style gun. I have shot one years back and have handled them many times, and am now in the market for one. I am wanting to carry the weapon (both concealed and and in the truck). I have been looking into the Kimber Pro and Ultra Crimson Carry II.

    Am I in leftfield assuming that the lack of accuracy in the shorter barrel (specifically the 3") would be made up for with a laser sight?

    Would either of these be recommended for a 1st time 1911 owner looking to carry?

    Does anyone have any comments on these firearms, either negative or positive?

    Also, what if any advantage other than cost of ammo does a 9mm have over a 45 chambered 1911?


    Thanks in advance

  2. #2
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tj1004 View Post
    1st time poster here. I currently own a Sprinfield XD 40 and a Keltec p11.

    Let me start off by saying I have never owned a 1911 style gun. I have shot one years back and have handled them many times, and am now in the market for one. I am wanting to carry the weapon (both concealed and and in the truck). I have been looking into the Kimber Pro and Ultra Crimson Carry II.

    Am I in leftfield assuming that the lack of accuracy in the shorter barrel (specifically the 3") would be made up for with a laser sight?

    Would either of these be recommended for a 1st time 1911 owner looking to carry?

    Does anyone have any comments on these firearms, either negative or positive?

    Also, what if any advantage other than cost of ammo does a 9mm have over a 45 chambered 1911?


    Thanks in advance

    Welcome to the forum,

    Let me fist start off with that fact that I am somewhat biased against Kimber.

    That being said I will try to be helpful.

    The 3" 1911 is not mechanically inaccurate, or rather it is not mechanically inaccurate at average self defense distances. It's harder to shoot well due to size and recoil, the laser will help you see that and help you correct it, but the same thing can be said for just more practice with the iron sights. With the laser you will see the dot bounce and jerk as you're getting ready to shoot.

    With a 3" gun you are reducing velocity
    * and sight radius while increasing felt recoil and muzzle flip while decreasing magazine capacity. That's giving up a lot for concealability if you ask me. But if it means that the gun will be carried and not left at home, do what you gotta' do.

    Regarding the 9mm vs .45 in a single stack 1911. I will offer two thoughts, a 3" 1911 will be easier to shoot in 9mm as there will be less muzzle flip and felt recoil. Second, if you only have 7-9 rounds on tap, I'll take 7-8of the .45s. I can handle the 3" 1911 in .45 just fine for the first mag or two. But if you're recoil shy, go with the 9mm. IMHO if you want a single stack 9mm, go with a Kahr, might as well ditch the unneeded weight of the 1911 for carry if you're not going with the .45.

    I would take a Pro over an Ultra for the extra barrel length and one more round of capacity, statistically speaking the 4" is the more reliable gun. The 3" 1911 from ALL makers has a finicky history. Personally I HATE the 3" models. They just aren't that fun to shoot for extended periods of time, I'm not talking about 1-200 rounds at a casual range session, but prolonged shooting in the range of a 600+ rd weekend. They can get pretty tough on the hands.




    *Regarding reduced velocity, see Ballistics by the Inch and The Box O' Truth #27 where sub-compact Glocks, the 26 and 27 were terminally out performed by the puny .32 and .38Spcl. in terms of penetration.
    Last edited by VAMarine; 11-30-2009 at 10:55 PM.

  3. #3
    tj1004 is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you for the reply. I will look into the Kahr stuff as well

  4. #4
    zhurdan's Avatar
    zhurdan is offline Senior Member
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    @OP
    Skip the 3". The geometry required to move that big fat round in such a short throw is what causes problems.

    As for 1911's, I carry a 4" Kimber Raptor every day and I shoot the piss out of it. It functions great. (note: I did not say flawless because nothing is.) Also, concealing a 5" 1911 isn't much harder than concealing a 4" if you go IWB, plus you get all the benefits.

    @ VAMarine
    Penetration isn't the end all, be all of bullet dynamics. It's important to be sure, but it's not the Holy Grail.

    Bullet expansion is more a function of velocity than distance(even though they are connected). Why? Because the bullet begins the expand nearly at contact. The reason they expand more with longer barrels, is because there's more energy at the point where it begins to expand. Penetration is more about bullet design than anything else, as indicated by the box-o-truth you posted. The Glock still only penetrated 3 jugs, but the bullets expanded better.

  5. #5
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zhurdan View Post

    @ VAMarine
    Penetration isn't the end all, be all of bullet dynamics. It's important to be sure, but it's not the Holy Grail.

    Bullet expansion is more a function of velocity than distance(even though they are connected). Why? Because the bullet begins the expand nearly at contact. The reason they expand more with longer barrels, is because there's more energy at the point where it begins to expand. Penetration is more about bullet design than anything else, as indicated by the box-o-truth you posted. The Glock still only penetrated 3 jugs, but the bullets expanded better.
    Too true, you need a good mix of both, just showing some of the draw backs of smaller guns and some of the things they sacrifice for the size which is why I specified that they out performed them in terms of penetration, not in overall terminal effect.

  6. #6
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    Well here I am sitting contemplating selling my SA Loaded MC Operator for a Kimber. Sorry VA. Crimson Trace doesn't make a laser for my Springer.

    Contemplation; decisions, decisions!!!!

  7. #7
    Bisley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tj1004 View Post
    Am I in leftfield assuming that the lack of accuracy in the shorter barrel (specifically the 3") would be made up for with a laser sight?
    The accuracy of 3" guns has been covered well, i.e. most are capable of more precision than the average shooter can make use of, especially at self defense ranges - the problem is learning to shoot them well.

    The Crimson Trace laser grip will certainly aid anyone in improving their pistol shooting skills, if used properly. Rather than to simply rely on the dot to be there when you need it, it is wiser to do your live-fire practice with iron sights, and reserve the laser for dry-fire practice. You can greatly improve your trigger finger control by trying to hold the dot on a fixed object as you are pulling the trigger.

    Your self defense default should be iron sights, and if the dot is there when you need it, all you have to do is look over the sights, instead of through them.

    Would either of these be recommended for a 1st time 1911 owner looking to carry?
    I see very little gain in carrying a 3" 1911. They are still too big for pocket carry, and that pretty much leaves you to IWB. If you can wear a cover garment (to make IWB carry possible), it is not hard to conceal a full sized 1911, or a Commander size (4" barrel), with the proper holster. The grip is the hard part to conceal, and a fairly radical forward tilt, that leaves the grip nearly vertical, will make a 1911 disappear under a loose cover garment.

    Also, what if any advantage other than cost of ammo does a 9mm have over a 45 chambered 1911?
    It will be considerably lighter when loaded, and it is a 'powderpuff' to shoot (in a full size handgun). It is adequate for self defense. Other than the fact that ammo costs about half what .45 costs, meaning you can practice more, I see no real advantage...but then I like .45's a lot.

  8. #8
    Bisley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plentyofpaws View Post
    Well here I am sitting contemplating selling my SA Loaded MC Operator for a Kimber. Sorry VA. Crimson Trace doesn't make a laser for my Springer.

    Contemplation; decisions, decisions!!!!
    They make one that will fit any basic 1911, and the Springfield is truer to the basic design than most.

    http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Pro...5/Default.aspx and http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Pro...9/Default.aspx

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bisley View Post
    They make one that will fit any basic 1911, and the Springfield is truer to the basic design than most.

    http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Pro...5/Default.aspx and http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Pro...9/Default.aspx
    I looked at these and wasn't sure so I contacted CT, they said they do not make a model to fit the MC Operator!

  10. #10
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plentyofpaws View Post
    Well here I am sitting contemplating selling my SA Loaded MC Operator for a Kimber. Sorry VA. Crimson Trace doesn't make a laser for my Springer.

    Contemplation; decisions, decisions!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bisley View Post
    They make one that will fit any basic 1911, and the Springfield is truer to the basic design than most.

    http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Pro...5/Default.aspx and http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Pro...9/Default.aspx
    Ditto, these models will fit your Springer:

    LG-404 Front Activation
    also available:
    LG-304 Dual Side-Activation

    As posted above, you just need the new ambi safety, a single sided safety, or take a Dremmel to your safety.

    Springfield Mico



    Remember what I told you about proper demonology..If they think you're talking about the ENHANCED Micro Pistol (EMP) I suspect they would tell you that you're SOL.
    Last edited by VAMarine; 12-03-2009 at 01:18 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bisley View Post
    They make one that will fit any basic 1911, and the Springfield is truer to the basic design than most.

    http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Pro...5/Default.aspx and http://www.crimsontrace.com/Home/Pro...9/Default.aspx
    How difficult to replace the ambi safety to the bobbed version? Or to use my Dremel tool?

  12. #12
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plentyofpaws View Post
    How difficult to replace the ambi safety to the bobbed version?
    Might be drop in, might need minor fitting, or might need to be installed by a smith if you're not able/willing to do the work, you really won't know until you try.

    It's a Wilson Combat part, and those usually require some fitting. The CrimsonTrace website only says that Kimbers need gun smith service, but then again...they could be wrong.


    Wilson's website states "Minor Fitting Required" for some safeties, but not all, nor do they list the CT safety on their gun parts page. For the BEST answer on this, I'd call Wilson.

    Wilson Combat Technical Questions: 1-870-545-3635

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by VAMarine View Post
    Might be drop in, might need minor fitting, or might need to be installed by a smith if you're not able/willing to do the work, you really won't know until you try.

    It's a Wilson Combat part, and those usually require some fitting. The CrimsonTrace website only says that Kimbers need gun smith service, but then again...they could be wrong.


    Wilson's website states "Minor Fitting Required" for some safeties, but not all, nor do they list the CT safety on their gun parts page. For the BEST answer on this, I'd call Wilson.

    Wilson Combat Technical Questions: 1-870-545-3635
    Just disasembled my Springer, not sure I would want to mess with the replacement. However, I looked at the existing safety and I think with a bit of slow and easy TLC I can alter it with my Dremel. Not sure if it will come out as smooth as the OEM piece, but I never use the right side anyway.

    I believe I'd go with the LG-404 Burlwood grip.

    Damn I am a pretty needy individual

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