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  1. #26
    Locke is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    I think it's more a matter of the previous-era's military knowing that our pistol-armed troops were relatively untrained in safety due to time constraints placed upon them by wartime exigencies.

    IMHO, most ADs and NDs don't take place in or about the holster, but rather well after the pistol has begun to come up onto a target. The trigger-finger presses its way into the triggerguard, and the safety comes off much too early. That's "operator error," and no holster-mounted safety strap will keep such "accidents" from happening.
    (A few finger-on-the-trigger reholsterings do occur, resulting in unintended "Bang!"s, but I believe that they are well within the minority of incidents. Safety straps don't prevent them, either.)

    IM(much less)HO, I firmly believe that if you carry a pistol, you have the duty to train yourself in, and to continually practice, safe gun handling.
    Although I absolutely hate the word "should" when it's used as an admonishment, please forgive my use of it it when I add: You should have no need "to protect me from myself."

    you first sentence does not make sense to me, lot easier to train them in the use of a saftey, than the cock and draw method just my IMHO, is there a link to stats that prove your point, I probaly agree with you since most gun accidents seem to happen long after the gun is out of holster, like the famous I thought it was unloaded
    Last edited by Locke; 09-13-2009 at 07:05 AM. Reason: ADDING TO POST

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  3. #27
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve M1911A1 View Post
    I think it's more a matter of the previous-era's military knowing that our pistol-armed troops were relatively untrained in safety due to time constraints placed upon them by wartime exigencies....
    Quote Originally Posted by Locke View Post
    you first sentence does not make sense to me, lot easier to train them in the use of a saftey, than the cock and draw method just my IMHO...
    During WW2, according to my stepfather, pistol training was pretty rudimentary. It was mostly about field-stripping and keeping the piece clean. Safety issues were addressed by requiring almost everybody to carry hammer-down-on-empty-chamber. The idea was that you'd know when you were going to be in a fight, well in advance. At other times, you had no need of a ready-to-fire pistol.
    In civvies, things are a little different. You can easily find yourself in a fight with no warning at all, and at very close range. You need to be able to respond instantly, not after the second or two it'll take you to rack the slide after presenting your weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Locke View Post
    ...[I]s there a link to stats that prove your point, I probaly agree with you since most gun accidents seem to happen long after the gun is out of holster, like the famous I thought it was unloaded
    There probably are such statistics but, I'm ashamed to say, I no longer know where to find them. My statement is based more upon experience than on statistical evidence. Sorry.

  4. #28
    dances with guns's Avatar
    dances with guns is offline Junior Member
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    it's safer than carrying a glock, which is more like cocked and unlocked.

    so no, i'm not concerned about safety with cocked and locked carry

  5. #29
    Steve M1911A1's Avatar
    Steve M1911A1 is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by dances with guns View Post
    it's safer than carrying a glock, which is more like cocked and unlocked...
    In my (small) experience with Glocks, I think that I should dispute your point.
    I believe that the Glock system is actually safer to carry concealed than a cocked-and-locked 1911, especially in the hands of a neophyte.
    I'm pretty competent with a 1911, but my daily carry is a safety-less, DAO, .45 ACP semi-auto because I don't have to wonder whether or not some unknown agent or occurrence has accidentally wiped my pistol's safety-lever to "off." The DAO trigger pull alone provides all the safety I require.
    (I'm not as sure of the inherent safety of a Glock with a light-action trigger connector, though.)

  6. #30
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    +1 Steve M1911A1


  7. #31
    bent21606 is offline Junior Member
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    i dont think i would carry chambered. no reason to. i guess if i lived in a different state id be different. i guess if i even had the option to carry i could think about it more lol

  8. #32
    Todd is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by bent21606 View Post
    i dont think i would carry chambered. no reason to.
    What?!?!? If you don't carry chambered you might as well carry a brick because if you think you can draw and rack the slide fast enough to get a shot off when seconds, literally, count, then you've seen too many action movies.

  9. #33
    dondavis3's Avatar
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    +1 Todd

    If your going to carry - you gotta carry chambered - just my .02

    But to each his own.


  10. #34
    bent21606 is offline Junior Member
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    i was just tough to be extremely careful with guns. i dont keep loaded guns in my house. the safetys are always on no matter what. and i wont buy a gun with no safety. your believe are different then mine it doesn't mean im wrong

  11. #35
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    bent21606 - Your absolutely right - whatever works for you is good for you and safety is always good.

    You may want to reconsider what you were taught as it pertains to CCW. I was taught by my father exactly the way you were taught.

    After two different stints as a policeman once in NJ and again in Texas, I had to re-adjust my thinking on carrying a concealed weapon at all and then just how I would carry it.

    I learned that the police always want to be there to protect you, but they can't be everywhere at once - 90% of the time they arrive after the incident has already finished.

    I didn't even use to carry a concealed weapon, but I decided it was my responsibility to protect my self & my family and I wasn't going to be a "vicitim" .

    Well if you decide that, you must carry and once you decide to carry, then you must learn that things happen to fast to rack your slide and feed a round.

    You might want to consider carrying a small revolver, but I still believe you might want to study and re-think not carrying it loaded.

    Just my .02 - I'm trying to be helpful and your are right for you with whatever you decide.


  12. #36
    VAMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bent21606 View Post
    i was just tough to be extremely careful with guns. i dont keep loaded guns in my house. the safetys are always on no matter what. and i wont buy a gun with no safety. your believe are different then mine it doesn't mean im wrong

    So let me get this straight, you want to buy an handgun for home defense, but you want to keep it unloaded and with a safety on. So when you need it (probably at night, being woken out of a dead sleep), you will have time to:

    1: Retrieve gun from storage
    2: Find magazine (hopefully you will at least have that loaded ahead of time)
    3: Load the magazine, chamber a round
    4: Remove the safety
    5: Address the threat

    How much time to you plan on having when you need the gun?

  13. #37
    bent21606 is offline Junior Member
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    once again i live in new jersey. surrounded by farm land. if someone breaks into my house it would probable be a punk kid who i couldnt use a gun on anyway. and yes i would have a clip loaded. but i really dont live anywhere where anything like that ever happens. home protection is just a plus part of a handgun. if i were in a threatening area i probably would carry loaded. but i cant carry i dont feel the need to and i dont feel the need to keep a loaded gun in my house or my room for that madder

  14. #38
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    Well there you go - if you live in rural NJ there isn't anyplace prettier.

    You need to do what's comfortable for you.



  15. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by dances with guns View Post
    people that don't know about guns might would see your 1911 cocked and not realize there's a safety on. i guess that's only natural. but who cares anyway? you know that you're being safe.

    i would carry cocked and locked without worry. someone just needs to practice drawing and clicking the safety off so much that it is done without thinking about it so you don't have to worry about not deactivating the safety in a stressful situation.
    Nelson: As retired military and some flight engineering we would practice and practice until our actions were automatic. Not to say we wern't thinking but when an emergency came up and a mistake could cost you your life you had to act quickly and responsibly. Same way in a fighting condition. I have more confidence in my hands and feet if I'm in a strike position than a gun as your hands can be very quick if you let automatic reflex take over.
    I only say this because some gang kids I worked with are in prison because they shot someone in the heat of the moment. One was only 16 when he went to prison for murder in 1996 and his early release date won't be until 2023.
    My life has been threatened and I have been shot at, knives taken to me... and yet it wasn't the Crips, Bloods, Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords or Latin Kings I had to worry about; it was the other guy who was quick tempered, insecure etc.
    I have a Tatical Mossberg, 8 rounds of buck, for protection and will purchase probably a Mark 23 H&K .45, and I may be wrong but I feel secure enough not to carry my weapon cocked and chambered. In the past I could get rounds off pretty quick and accurately without having a bullet in the chamber. Out of striking range I can move. If I sense danger I'll have time to chamber. If I am close enough and a gun is pointed at me I would feel safer disarming the person with my hands then I would trying to draw my chambered pistol.
    This is not a matter of bravado but a conciousness that life is precious and in my work in gang hoods I was always able to diffuse the situation.
    I hope I make sense.

  16. #40
    ArmyCop's Avatar
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    I don't have a problem with it.

  17. #41
    Todd is offline Banned
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    I was wondering when the "I Live In a Safe Area" defense was going to surface in this thread.

  18. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by dondavis3 View Post
    Any one else feel concern about carrying "cocked & Locked"?
    If I'm carrying concealed no one sees it, but if I carry it in the open it seems to bug others.
    Mr. Davis:

    We do not have open carry in Texas yet. Although we're working on it. If you're carrying openly in public, other than while hunting or at a shooting range, you're putting your CHL at jeopardy. You're going to get those looks whether you're carrying cond. 1 or 2.

    I've been carrying cocked & locked for 35+ years and never had a safety come off in the holster. Neither have I heard of it happening with anyone that I know. When I first started carrying a 1911 as a duty weapon I was a little uncomfortable with cond.1, but all the old hands told me that was the only way to carry it as cond 2 (round chambered, hammer down) is not safe, should it be dropped on a hard surface. Should one have to use their gun in a defensive situation cond. 3 (hammer down, round unchambered) takes too long to put the gun into action and could cost them their life.

  19. #43
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    Gosh sixguncowboy I didn't know that

    Of course it was hunting, and it wasn't even in Texas.

    Last edited by dondavis3; 09-26-2009 at 08:11 AM.

  20. #44
    DevilsJohnson is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by bent21606 View Post
    i dont think i would carry chambered. no reason to. i guess if i lived in a different state id be different. i guess if i even had the option to carry i could think about it more lol
    Carrying an unchambered weapon is about as useful as carrying the loaded mag in your pocket and the weapon empty. Believe me when I tell you that (God forbid)when you need that weapon you are more than likely not going to have time to rack a slide. If it's so safe in your area that you believe you don't really need your weapon then I must question your desire to carry it to begin with. I live in the sticks where everyone knows me and I can leave my doors unlocked if I wanted to. But I don't because there's always a chance something bad could happen. I carry a weapon because I travel around the area a good bit and something bad can happen. There are no safe places. Bad has a way of popping up when you least expect it sometimes and if that bad does show it's face a half a second can save or end your life.

    Weapons were designed to be carried loaded with one on the pipe. "Israeli" carry (full mag not one on the pipe) come from citizens using police supplied weapons and they had too many different models and it was easier to tell the people to carry like that than train the citizens how to use all the different weapons. Being you own your weapon and I would imagine that you know how to use it properly you don't have the need to do this. If it makes you nervous to carry a fully loaded weapon then you might want to question your choice of weapons or even why you carry to begin with.

    I am not trying to be an ass or anything. I have learned from some peoples mistakes and my own training as well as personal experiences. You can not guarantee you will have the time to rack a slide and get ready to shoot. Lives are taken in a half a second. Time is your enemy in a bad situation.

    I'm all for being safe. It's why we don't practice as much as we train. We train to be able to react fast and to be able to do what's needed while trying to keep ourselves safe and all around us at the time. Even in "safer" communities you wont see an officer carrying their weapon with it empty in the chamber. And I know many that have been on duty for 20 years and never draw their weapon unless they are at the range. But that weapon wont have an empty chamber.

    Some weapon types feel more safe than others for different people for different reasons. But the only one more safe carrying with an empty chamber is the person that has instigated the situation that is causing you to draw your improperly loaded weapon.

    Again I'm not trying to upset you. It's just a simple truth.

  21. #45
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    I don't know why I bother.....BUT.....The pistol is designed to be carried cocked and locked.......otherwise carry a large rock and learn to throw well.

  22. #46
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    Never! Never! carry a Springfield Armory Brazilian Junker cocked and locked. Have you ever wondered why there is a third detente cut into Springfield hammers. The same reason they CAN NOT sell parts.....Extreme quality control problems with their Turkish MIM parts.

    A well made 1911 can be carried half cocked and was done so by all the lefties during their tour of duty in the service. Springfield Armory Brazilian Junk are not quality made guns.

  23. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Boomer View Post
    Never! Never! carry a Springfield Armory Brazilian Junker cocked and locked. Have you ever wondered why there is a third detente cut into Springfield hammers. The same reason they CAN NOT sell parts.....Extreme quality control problems with their Turkish MIM parts.

    A well made 1911 can be carried half cocked and was done so by all the lefties during their tour of duty in the service. Springfield Armory Brazilian Junk are not quality made guns.


    Also, condition 2 carry is asking for a negligent discharge due to a hammer slip, don't do it.

  24. #48
    Fred40 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by VAMarine View Post


    Also, condition 2 carry is asking for a negligent discharge due to a hammer slip, don't do it.
    +1

    Nothing wrong with Springfields.

  25. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred40 View Post
    +1

    Nothing wrong with Springfields.
    You like them....I hate them. This is still America isn't it? I still have my first Amendment rights don't I? I work on them all the time and make a very good living repairing them with real metal parts that don't break like Turkish MIM parts!

  26. #50
    Big Boomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VAMarine View Post


    Also, condition 2 carry is asking for a negligent discharge due to a hammer slip, don't do it.
    With a Wilson extra heavy duty firing pin spring we could not get a AD no matter how hard we hit it and knocked off half cock. Just not enough inertia to pop a primer!

    AD's are caused they just don't happen. Here read the original 1911/1911a1 manual.

    http://www.sightm1911.com/manual/manual.htm


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